Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[LmL]

I've seen too many times on this forum, how Mirri Maz Durr didn't betray Dany at all but tried to help her.
This simply isn't true.
Here's where the clarification is needed."She did heal drogo, but drogo didn't follow her instructions. That isn't MMD's fault". No it's not. But have you considered she might have known the ointment would be too unbearable. And the impersonation of a healing mother figure ("This old, homely, thick-bodied woman did not look like a maegi to her."
"All men are one flock, or so we are taught. The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them") was a simple tactic to gain Daenerys's trust?Daenerys's killed her own child by walking into the tent. Mirri Maz Durr never killed Rhaego - is not true.
MMD did sacrifice Rhaego for a vegetable version of Drogo. Have you ever considered how timely, and coincidental it was that Dany went into an early labour the minute she walked out the tent, and the minute MMD started her ritual.
I've never been in labour, but this reads like a very odd unnatural first contraction Her son was dying before Dany walked into the tent. Walking into the tent (I think) gave her dragons each a bit of Rhaego's lifeforce. But her son didn't die because she was carried into the tent.

Your OP is proven true by MMD's words after the deed is done. Now your stallion will trample no fields, burn no cities, etc etc. I'm paraphrasing but clearly, MMD is satisfied with her work, feels she did the right thing. She's teaching Dany a specific lesson - "take a look at what life is worth when all the rest is gone." MMD gave Dany exactly what MMD and her village got from the Khalasar.

Also, the book says that Dany's babies were fed to the darkness. They were fed to the darkness, guys. That's was not a normal Targaryen stillbirth. Sorry Mithras, but the evidence does not seem to be on your side, and while I love your contributions, you have a well known track record of extreme bias against Dany. It clouds your judgement any time Dany is involved, IMO. You know I love you brother but I'm just being real. I just finished analyzing this scene, so it's all fresh in my head, and Dany's baby was fed to the darkness. MMD never intended Drogo to heal.... I mean that's abundantly clear from MMD's words to Dany the next day. Was she justified? Maybe... That's another debate. Certainly you can argue her case - the Khalasar raped and pillaged their town, what would you do? Try to kill those motherfuckers if you can, right?

That's not to absolve Dany of responsibility - she asked MMD to use black magic to save Drogo, even against the advice of his blood riders. Jorah carried her in the tent, yes. Drogo didn't wear his poultice - but again, MMD never intended him to live, and the instructions she gave him were such that she must have known he would not follow it. That's if the poultice wasn't specifically poisoned, which it well might have been. The OP's point isn't that Dany didn't contribute to this somehow, but rather that MMD did everything she could to take down Drogo, Dany, and Rhaego.

[Lady Sharya]

One - there is. She clearly manipulated Rhaego's birth (or it seems so to me).
Two - if we got her PoV, of course she would seem sympathetic. I can't find the exact words, but George said something like "Mel and Mirri Maz Durr view themselves as heroes. But the truth is... Well I leave that for the readers to decide".

1. I don't know why you would leave out the beginning of that scene where she is knocked down and her life is threatened by Drogo's bloodrider. THAT was the cause of her premature labor. And yes, labor can start off with a bang like that especially when induced by outside stressors and not natural timing. Also, she stressed that no one was to enter the tent. If she intended Rhaego's death, wouldn't she have encouraged Dany's close proximity?
2. What's the difference then? Because you don't have her POV you can't sympathize for the situation she is in and take her advise at face value since it was the defiance of her advise that cause Drogo & Rhaego's deaths, not the adherence of her advise.

I don't view Mel as any sort of hero, but I do Mirri...for her own people.

[sifth]

Believe what you want to believe, but too many things just don't add up for Drogo and Dany's sons death to simply be a coincident. The fact that everyone in Dany's group is calling her a witch, but Dany doesn't believe them..............until she see's the woman dancing with demons, doesn't exactly help her case in my eyes either.

 

 

but hey, I've heard stranger things around this place...............I mean some people here actually think Tywin and Mel are good, lol

[sweetsunray]

Believe what you want to believe, but too many things just don't add up for Drogo and Dany's sons death to simply be a coincident. The fact that everyone in Dany's group is calling her a witch, but Dany doesn't believe them..............until she see's the woman dancing with demons, doesn't exactly help her case in my eyes either.

 

 

but hey, I've heard stranger things around this place...............I mean some people here actually think Tywin and Mel are good, lol

 

Yup, let's believe the Dothraki savages who cake wounds with mud over someone who's been trained in healing by moonsingers, maesters, Ashai, Lhazareen and Dothraki.

[sifth]

 

Yup, let's believe the Dothraki savages who cake wounds with mud over someone who's been trained in healing by moonsingers, maesters, Ashai, Lhazareen and Dothraki.

You know what, if my other option was a demon summoner, I think I'd take my chances with the savages. If you want to trust someone dances with evil spirits though.............well to each their own, I suppose.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I suspect Mirri Maz Duur sacrificed Drogo and Rhaego to the Great Shepherd...

"The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs,

...

"Great Rider," the woman said, "my tools and potions are inside the god's house, where the healing powers are strongest."

...

"There," Mirri Maz Duur said, pointing to the altar, a massive blue-veined stone carved with images of shepherds and their flocks. Khal Drogo lay upon it.

...

and bound the breast in a ragged piece of lambskin. "You must say the prayers I give you and keep the lambskin in place for ten days and ten nights," 

...

"Remember, maegi, as the khal fares, so shall you."

"As you say, rider," the woman answered him, gathering up her jars and bottles. "The Great Shepherd guards the flock."

And the Great Shepherd had it's due...

"No," she wept, "no, please, stop it, it's too high, the price is too high." More stones came flying. She tried to crawl toward the tent, 

...

"The maegi," someone else said. Was that Aggo? "Take her to the maegi."

No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, 

...

"The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed," Irri said. "She said so, I heard her."

"Yes," Doreah agreed, "I heard her too."

No, she shouted, or perhaps she only thought it, for no whisper of sound escaped her lips. 

...

"It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd."

Or was it The Dragon claiming Daenerys's womb?

[LmL]

There is nothing in the text to support the claim that Mirri intended the deaths of Drogo or Rhaego, except her hindsight explanation when she knew that she was doomed due to the stupidity of others not following her advise.
If the Essos POV were Mirri Mazda, then she would have been seen as highly sympathetic character who tried to help her captors despite the atrocities committed against her people.

I really hate it when people choose to express their opinion via the phrase "there is nothing in the text to suggest" or "there is no evidence for..." That's totally unnecessary and just plain old not accurate. MMD gloats to Dany after she kills Drogo and Rhaego. The Khalasar just raped and burned her entire village! Which she was clearly very upset about, as anyone would be! I would say there's more to suggest she didn't want Drogo to survive than the opposite. I can't think of anyone short of Jesus Christ himself who would not want to take revenge on Drogo and the Khalasar.

When she tells Dany "you knew the cost (would be Rhaego)," that's a clear indication that MMD knew Rhaego would die. MMD also knew very well what would be the outcome of her shadow dance - a vegetable. She knew what she was doing - how not? The outcome was just what she expected.

[sweetsunray]

You know what, if my other option was a demon summoner, I think I'd take my chances with the savages. If you want to trust someone dances with evil spirits though.............well to each their own, I suppose.

 

Well it worked, didn't it? He was alive, and his wound was healed. Much better than the foul mud full of bacteria the savages used.

 

And why was it for Dany to decide that wasn't a worthwhile life for Drogo? The new Drogo wasn't the old Drogo, but that doesn't mean that the new Drogo was bothered by it. He seemed fine with sitting in the sun. It's like Kelly suddenly deciding she ought to kill Leo Johnson because he's not the man he used to be anymore.

[Taenqyrhae]

So, these people think that Mirri somehow caused:

 

Dany to bring Drogo to her for treatment.

Drogo to refuse to wear the poultice.

Drogo to drink milk of the poppy when it is contraindicated for festering wounds.

 

Drogo to put mud (which has to be largely "wet horseshit" in a Dothraki camp) on his wound.

Anaerobic batcteria to reproduce in his wound sealed from air with horseshit

Dany to choose to use blood magic after everyone, including Mirri, told her it was not a good idea, with Mirri specifically telling her that it would have a high cost and unsatisfactory results.

Drogo's blood rider to assault Dany and cause her premature labor

Jorah to carry Dany into the tent.

Damn, Bloodraven has nothing on Mirri's ability to be in control of multiple plot elements.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

SMH

[LmL]

Well it worked, didn't it? He was alive, and his wound was healed. Much better than the foul mud full of bacteria the savages used.
 
And why was it for Dany to decide that wasn't a worthwhile life for Drogo? The new Drogo wasn't the old Drogo, but that doesn't mean that the new Drogo was bothered by it. He seemed fine with sitting in the sun. It's like Kelly suddenly deciding she ought to kill Leo Johnson because he's not the man he used to be anymore.

Come on Sweetsunray, it worked? It left him a vegetable. I mean, the spell worked in that it did exactly what MMD intended... "See what life is worth when all the rest is gone." MMD always intended a vegetable, and that's what she got. Drogo was not home anymore. How is that any better than death? It's not, especially in a Khalasar. Vegetable Drogo is as good as dead, from the perspective of Dany and the Khalasar.

[Lady Sharya]

Believe what you want to believe, but too many things just don't add up for Drogo and Dany's sons death to simply be a coincident. The fact that everyone in Dany's group is calling her a witch, but Dany doesn't believe them..............until she see's the woman dancing with demons, doesn't exactly help her case in my eyes either.

The too many things that don't add up are the continual acts of defiance against Mirri's advise. When I go to the Doctor for an ailment, if I don't follow the instructions and/or take the meds given, it's my own fault if my condition gets worse. Common sense was missing in relying on and then ignoring Mirri expertise.

If Dany should have viewed her as demonic for using black magic, then she should not have demanded her services.

[sifth]

 

Well it worked, didn't it? He was alive, and his wound was healed. Much better than the foul mud full of bacteria the savages used.

 

And why was it for Dany to decide that wasn't a worthwhile life for Drogo? The new Drogo wasn't the old Drogo, but that doesn't mean that the new Drogo was bothered by it. He seemed fine with sitting in the sun. It's like Kelly suddenly deciding she ought to kill Leo Johnson because he's not the man he used to be anymore.

 

Is also turned him into a vegetable, but something like keeping a persons mind intact isn't important, so long as they're head, lol

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Damn, Bloodraven has nothing on Mirri's ability to be in control of multiple plot elements.

True. It seems that some people around here believe that MMD was the mastermind who could see in the future and see that no one would follow her orders or that she brainwashed them to do all that stuff.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

Ironic that a slave taking revenge on her owners is viewed as a betrayal by Team Dany.

That's assuming Mirri actually did these things which is an enormous assumption, contradicted by cause and effect.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I really hate it when people choose to express their opinion via the phrase "there is nothing in the text to suggest" or "there is no evidence for..." That's totally unnecessary and just plain old not accurate. MMD gloats to Dany after she kills Drogo and Rhaego. The Khalasar just raped and burned her entire village! Which she was clearly very upset about, as anyone would be! I would say there's more to suggest she didn't want Drogo to survive than the opposite. I can't think of anyone short of Jesus Christ himself who would not want to take revenge on Drogo and the Khalasar.

When she tells Dany "you knew the cost (would be Rhaego)," that's a clear indication that MMD knew Rhaego would die. MMD also knew very well what would be the outcome of her shadow dance - a vegetable. She knew what she was doing - how not? The outcome was just what she expected.

 

Fuck yes, thank you.

 

It makes me very sick how defensive people get about a woman who practically told another one "I'm so glad you had an abortion because you deserved it" on her face, after such abortion happened just because they don't like that one character.

 

Is that ok? Telling women "I'm glad you abort"? Is it sensitive? That doesn't trigger any feelings? Is allowed in this board? :dunno:

 

What happened to MMD was a tragedy. It's understandable, as you said, that she wanted revenge. Anyone of us would have, probably. But there is nothing heroic about her actions despite many have, in this board, called her such. Sick.

[Nights Kings Queen]

So, these people think that Mirri somehow caused:
 
Dany to bring Drogo to her for treatment.
Drogo to refuse to wear the poultice.
Drogo to drink milk of the poppy when it is contraindicated for festering wounds.
 
Drogo to put mud (which has to be largely "wet horseshit" in a Dothraki camp) on his wound.
Anaerobic batcteria to reproduce in his wound sealed from air with horseshit
Dany to choose to use blood magic after everyone, including Mirri, told her it was not a good idea, with Mirri specifically telling her that it would have a high cost and unsatisfactory results.
Drogo's blood rider to assault Dany and cause her premature labor
Jorah to carry Dany into the tent.
Damn, Bloodraven has nothing on Mirri's ability to be in control of multiple plot elements.

That didn't happen. She said she knew blood magic, Dany said she really was a maegi, mmd said "only a maegi can save your khal now".
And we did see MMD was manipulating Dany. She started off all nice, and kind, with her "great Shepard heals all his people", exploiting Dany's trust.
Then immediately did a 180, turning her husband into a vegetable. Claiming she killed her son. Even telling her she knew Rhaego would die, and did it anyway.

[SeanF]

IMO, Mirri initially was prepared to try and save Drogo.  It would mean better treatment as a slave.

 

Then, she saw that Drogo ignored her advice, but the Dothraki would probably kill her anyway if he died. And learned about the prophecy surrounding Rhaego.  And her initial gratitude towards Dany changed to anger at the wife and mother of her enemies, who was partly to blame for what happened at her village.

 

So, she decided to sell her life as dearly as she could. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

 

Fuck yes, thank you.

 

It makes me very sick how defensive people get about a woman who practically told another one "I'm so glad you had an abortion because you deserved it" on her face, after such abortion happened just because they don't like that one character.

 

Is that ok? Telling women "I'm glad you abort"? Is it sensitive? That doesn't trigger any feelings? Is allowed in this board? :dunno:

 

What happened to MMD was a tragedy. It's understandable, as you said, that she wanted revenge. Anyone of us would have, probably. But there is nothing heroic about her actions despite many have, in this board, called her such. Sick.

Really? How do you feel about a woman who wishes that an innocent child to be dead because she so called "feels bad"?

[sweetsunray]

As for GRRM's words on it - he can't outright say it wasn't MMDs fault. Dany counts MMD as one of the treasons of the HotU predictions throughout the books so far. Dany's wondering about all the other two treasons, never questioning the first (and most readers theorizing on the HotU prophecies count MMD as a treason as well). But it's a red herring. And it makes Dany kindof blind to other treasons that might occur (or she herself may commit) that she already dismissed as having occurred before with MMD.