Sanderson is done with WoT

[cseresz.reborn]

Another chapter from the endless debate:

this time: Real fans versus Casual readers

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/74574-thisguys-topic-on-brandons-work/

(It is a very interesting thread.)

[awesome possum]

LOL

I stopped reading after the second comment,

Yah it does seem to me over the course of these last 3 books, things that could have done better based on all our feedback never did get better in my minds eye at least.

I'm as big of a nerd as anyone, but nerds like this ruin it for everyone. "Hurr, I'm a fan of Wheel of Time and so is Sanderson. Since Sanderson was asked to finish the story, he should have asked other fans like me how to write the books. Hurrrrrr."

What a fucktard. The last two books were excellent and so far the final book looks excellent as well. If you can't take that opinion without crapping your pants in nerdrage, well, you have far more serious problems than Sanderson writing Wheel of Time books.

[Newsun]

LOL

I stopped reading after the second comment,

I'm as big of a nerd as anyone, but nerds like this ruin it for everyone. "Hurr, I'm a fan of Wheel of Time and so is Sanderson. Since Sanderson was asked to finish the story, he should have asked other fans like me how to write the books. Hurrrrrr."

What a fucktard. The last two books were excellent and so far the final book looks excellent as well. If you can't take that opinion without crapping your pants in nerdrage, well, you have far more serious problems than Sanderson writing Wheel of Time books.

I don't know how close, but I know the runners of that site had a strong relationship with both RJ and Brandon. When brandon has to come in and pick up the pieces of the story it makes sense for him to go to the people who have read the books dozens of times for help. So your anger at their nerdrage isnt all that justified.

The books were good in that they finished the story for us. We're they particularly well written? No. But you can't win in a situation where the author died, and I'm content with the result... At least I'm getting the story. But the story definitely has some problems with timelines and other details.

The guy wasn't asking that Brandon consulted him on the writing process, he was wishing Brandon had consulted the forums or at least its owners for help with the plethora of details and plot points left by RJ.

[Rhom]

The guy wasn't asking that Brandon consulted him on the writing process, he was wishing Brandon had consulted the forums or at least its owners for help with the plethora of details and plot points left by RJ.

Funny... I thought that's what Jordan's extensive notes and widow were there for.

[awesome possum]

I don't know how close, but I know the runners of that site had a strong relationship with both RJ and Brandon.

By strong relationship do you mean like the BwB has with Martin? You know, the relationship between fans and the purveyor of the product that creates said fanship? Being fans of a series of books isn't a partnership. You are the consumer and they are the producer of the product. That would be like someone who drinks a 12-pack of Mountain Dew getting upset because the CEO of the company didn't consult him on their new flavor. It's delusional lunacy you'd only find on the internet in the 2000s.

When brandon has to come in and pick up the pieces of the story it makes sense for him to go to the people who have read the books dozens of times for help. So your anger at their nerdrage isnt all that justified.

No, it doesn't make sense. I've read several books about a dozen times in the last 20 years. In no way do I feel like any of the authors of those books should consult me for help. Because I'm not delusional.

My anger - though I'd call it annoyance rather than anger - very much is justified. That dillhole - and probably a few dozen just like him - believes an author should consult an internet forum on how to finish a series of international best-sellers. What gall and arrogance that takes, and what ignorance at how crushingly unimportant their opinions really are in the scheme of things.

The books were good in that they finished the story for us. We're they particularly well written? No. But you can't win in a situation where the author died, and I'm content with the result... At least I'm getting the story. But the story definitely has some problems with timelines and other details.

I disagree. I've enjoyed these last two, and the Prologue/First Chapter, more than I have a Wheel of Time book in almost 14 years. That's my opinion and see the thing here is, I realize my opinion really only matters to me.

The guy wasn't asking that Brandon consulted him on the writing process, he was wishing Brandon had consulted the forums or at least its owners for help with the plethora of details and plot points left by RJ.

I believe Rhom appropriately answered this one.

[Shryke]

Funny... I thought that's what Jordan's extensive notes and widow were there for.

They are both for that.

Notes aren't near as useful as people who can pull this shit off the top of their heads in some situations. In my experience, no author is as crazy about the minute details of their creation as their biggest fans are. That's the kind of "consulting" fans are useful for. (Bakker, for instance, had one of his bigger fans basically proofread the Appendix in TTT for him to make sure it was all good)

When it crosses the line is when fans start complaining that they weren't consulted on how they wanted the story to go. That's just idiocy.

[awesome possum]

When it crosses the line is when fans start complaining that they weren't consulted on how they wanted the story to go. That's just idiocy.

Yep. There's a huge difference between, say, Martin consulting Ran about the heraldry of a minor house that is mentioned in passing and WoT fans being upset because they thought Grady should have have linked with an Aes Sedai to make Perrin's power-wrought hammer or some nonsense and how dare Sanderson not take into account their fanpinion.

[Newsun]

By strong relationship do you mean like the BwB has with Martin?

My anger - though I'd call it annoyance rather than anger - very much is justified. That dillhole - and probably a few dozen just like him - believes an author should consult an internet forum on how to finish a series of international best-sellers. What gall and arrogance that takes, and what ignorance at how crushingly unimportant their opinions really are in the scheme of things.

See, that's the thing. I'm fine with if someone likes Brandon's books or not, that's a matter of opinion. But the thing these people don't like is where Brandon gets facts wrong. He didn't write mat right? Well, what are ya gonna do, he's a new author. But when, for example, Aviendha disappears for 30-40 days, or the writing is equivalent to what an eighth grader would write in some places, I think they're entirely justified in venting their frustration that Brandon didn't put in the research and effort necessary for the book.

I didn't read what these people posted as wanting Brandon to consult with them; you're right, that would be ludicrous. I read it more as them complaining that he didn't get details right, and he could have at least done a little more work to get it all right.

YMMV I suppose.

For the record, I enjoyed Brandon's books. I'll end up rereading them multiple times. They have problems, sure, but I love the series enough that I will read and enjoy them. That doesn't change the fact that there are errors in plotting and just plain bad writing in places.

Edit: The thing is, this just isn't the best work Sanderson could have done. Im not holding him up to RJ's standards, Im holding him up to his own.

[Lightning Lord]

I read through a lot of comments on that thread. I love procrastinating. And a lot of people made the complaint that the writing wasn't the correct style, that it seemed like Sanderson didn't do his own best, let alone RJ's best. I was left with this question...

Why would he be able to produce his best work, when trying to write someone else's story? He started that story as a fan, then was suddenly convinced to try to take ownership of it. I'm not an author, but I've tried writing things from time to time. And I am friends with authors. It's not an easy thing to write your own story, to create your own best work. And yet, people honestly think that Brandon Sanderson writing Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time should be reaching the pinnacle of Sanderson's catalogue? I believe he tried his best, gave it 100%. But he was put (or chose to go) into an impossible-to-win situation. He was never going to be able to please everyone, he was always going to be held to an unreachable standard, and he was never going to get credit for success.

This wasn't his story, these weren't his characters, this wasn't his world.

His attempts have not been perfect, and of course there are errors. Aviendha disappeared for 30 days...and that's Sanderson's fault, not the editor who has been with the story from Day 1? If the editor and Team Jordan can't catch those kinds of things after almost 30 years of intimate familiarity with the work's creation/creator, why do you think it's easier for the interim writer to manage it?

Bad writing? Have you read RJ's books? They've rarely been better than "good," and at times have been far worse than even mediocre.

It's a a 14 volume epic, with more than 4,000,000 words, a cast of hundreds of characters living in a very complex world, written over the course of three decades, whose primary author died, and people are upset that the fan they hired to try to finish the series has gotten some minor details wrong? This isn't Brandon's best work because this isn't Brandon's work.

[Shryke]

I don't think the WOT books are below par for Sanderson at all.

Any of the problems I had with them (and there's a few) are issues in Sanderson's own work.

The rest are more issues of stylistic clashing (like Mat in TGS) and that kind of thing is still bad, but mostly understandable given he's doing someone else's work (although that chapter should really have gotten caught in editing or something.

But overall, they are enjoyable books. Especially given the constraints they are under.

On the other hand, the two recent books do have a few serious continuity/timeline issues. Most of these seem caused by trying to make TGS a more self-contained and coherent narrative, at the expense of timeline madness in TOM.

Sanderson, like RJ, like GRRM and like so many authors writing big series, got caught in the now apparently inevitable "mid-late series plotline tangle".

[Lightning Lord]

I've only read Sanderson's Elantris. I don't really have a strong basis for comparison. But I've not found his WoT attempts to be particularly objectionable.

[fionwe1987]

I disagree. I've enjoyed these last two, and the Prologue/First Chapter, more than I have a Wheel of Time book in almost 14 years. That's my opinion and see the thing here is, I realize my opinion really only matters to me.

Other's, though, are peeved with the extreme amount of retconning in the first chapter of aMoL to make up for the disastrous mistakes of ToM.

Go read Egwene's position on Rand's plan in ToM. Here's a hint: there isn't one. There's like five. Then go read her current stance as of the first chapter. Brandon either massively screwed up writing Egwene in ToM (my personal belief), or else Egwene changed her mind multiple times, and we never got to see her thought process for these changes, despite her PoV being chock full of these things when RJ wrote her.

Sanderson can get the tone of characters wrong. That is understandable. No one expects him to hit it right all the time. He gets Perrin, has trouble with Mat. Fine. But when protagnoists have completely random stances, and no effort is put into making them internally consistent (no matter the tone their thoughts are presented in), readers have all the right to be pissed off.

And you're right the fault is not all Brandon's. There's been a lot of crazy rush to get these books out, and this is most obvious with ToM, which is the most execrable mess of a book in WoT, despite having a large number of very nice scenes.

Yep. There's a huge difference between, say, Martin consulting Ran about the heraldry of a minor house that is mentioned in passing and WoT fans being upset because they thought Grady should have have linked with an Aes Sedai to make Perrin's power-wrought hammer or some nonsense and how dare Sanderson not take into account their fanpinion.

The point is, when a fan says it makes no sense for an Aes Sedai to link with Grady to make a weapon, they're going by cannon. That isn't an opinion. Though as I remember it, it was the Wise Ones who helped, not the Aes Sedai.

[cseresz.reborn]

Posted Today, 08:40 PM

Me too. I was seriously worried Brandon would go the other way and continue writing Egwene the way he was. Fan noise seems to have reached him on this though.

Reading her PoV, one thing strikes me. The biggest flaw to Brandon's writing is that when characters start talking, we stop seeing their points of view. With Jordan, these would constantly intermingle, giving us a character's PoV while they were conversing. This added dept to those conversations, but more importantly, this was the way sarcasm or humor would often be injected into the story. I think one reason why Mat fails is that we don't have this constant interplay of thought and conversation. Its blocks of one followed by blocks of other.

With someone like Egwene, it simply makes her seem less intelligent. Usually, if she'd heard Elayne say "let the DO be freed", she'd have a lot of thoughts about it. Here, we have to infer it, and that's not exactly done in a good way, especially since we rarely get to read characters physical reactions, facial expressions, etc. either, when they talk.

Here's an example of what I mean. The bolded parts are my additions:

Quote

“Thank you very much for the advice,” Elayne said, “which I will ignore, as I ignored Birgitte when she said the same thing. Mother, what is it you wished to discuss?”

Egwene handed over the letter she had been working on.

Elayne scanned the top of the letter. “To Rand?” Elayne (she) asked.

“You have a different perspective on him than I. Tell me what you think of this letter. I might not send it to him. I haven’t decided yet.”

Elayne's face gave nothing away as she read the letter. She looked serene. As an Aes Sedai should. As a Queen should. How would she react to this? Egwene placed much trust on Elayne. The woman was in love with Rand, but Egwene trusted her to place the rationality of their arguments above her feelings. At least, she added to herself, I hope I can.

“The tone is . . . forceful,” Elayne noted. She did not seem surprised.

“He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.” Egwene could well remember their arguments as they grew up in Emond's Field. Him saying the most infuriating things. Her trying to make sense. At least, that was the way of it most of the time.

They had thought they would marry, then, yet that hadn't stopped them from rubbing each other the wrong way every so often. Now... now we stand as leaders of the world. An ancient man in the mind of a boy, and a girl bearing a title almost as ancient. They couldn't walk away from each other in a huff this time.

After a moment of reading Elayne lowered the letter. “Perhaps we should simply let him do as he wishes.”

“Break the seals?” Egwene asked, startled. “Release the Dark One?”

“Why not?”, Elayne asked, as if asking why there should be no rain from clouds.

“Light, Elayne!, Egwene said, troubled. If her closest friends doubted her course, what chance did she have of convincing Rand? And Perrin too, as if one mule headed stubborn man weren't enough. All they needed was for Mat to appear, and the entire lot of them could talk sense till they were hoarse, and nothing would change.

“It has to happen, doesn’t it?” Elayne asked. “I mean, the Dark One’s going to escape. He’s practically free already.”

Egwene rubbed her temples, thinking. She chose her words carefully. Elayne's point was not without merit. Perhaps if she had she not had that dream before Rand came, she would have seen things differently too. But now... now she knew. This was not instinct. Not even just the Dream, which she hadn't even revealed to the Wise Ones. The Tower was a treasure trove of obscure knowledge, and on this issue, she had found plenty of useful nuggets. Time to see if they were worth anything.

“There is a difference between touching the world and being free. During the War of Power, the Dark One was never truly released into the world. The Bore let him touch it, but that was resealed before he could escape. If the Dark One had entered the world, the Wheel itself would have been broken. Here, I brought this to show you.”

Or something like that, at least. I'd rather Brandon spend time on things like this than on the exact tone of each character. Without something like this, what we get really reads like an unfleshed first draft. We're getting the bare skeleton of the story, with a lot of the flesh missing.

EXCELLENT POST, fionwe, EXCELLENT POST!

[Myrddin]

Actually, I prefer that passage without the clunky parts in bold.

It's all personal preference.

[David Selig]

Honestly, the fact that Jordan took this type of writing to a ridiculous level in the last few books he wrote of WoT, is one of the main reasons I don't like them much. Practically every conversation, even on the most trivial matters, went on forever, because after every line of dialogue there were at least 5 lines of POV thinking about it, often in the most obvious and unnecessary way.

Brandon took this in the other direction, giving too little of this, but I find it less annoying most of the time. Just my 2 cents.

BTW, as for asking the fandom to help with getting the details write, Brandon uses Jason from Dragonmount and the webmasters of other WoT sites for beta readers.

[Maithanet]

Actually, I prefer that passage without the clunky parts in bold.

It's all personal preference.

I agree, there is no "right" amount of descriptions, just as there is no correct way to write anything. Some of those descriptions seem easily inferred and therefore unnecessary, at least in my opinion. Even Sanderson's WoT books are long, and I have no desire for them to be another 100 pages of descriptions.

You can argue that some of Sanderson's writing didn't feel well executed, and I would agree, but I hardly think that the problem was lack of details to flesh out the conversations. I think the overall problem was that it was indeed not his story, and that the style shift, along with the timeline issues (both within the story and in the publishing world) made it very difficult to write a top-shelf fantasy. Sanderson did his best, and the end product to me is pretty readable, but far from great.

[fionwe1987]

I agree, there is no "right" amount of descriptions, just as there is no correct way to write anything. Some of those descriptions seem easily inferred and therefore unnecessary, at least in my opinion. Even Sanderson's WoT books are long, and I have no desire for them to be another 100 pages of descriptions.

You can argue that some of Sanderson's writing didn't feel well executed, and I would agree, but I hardly think that the problem was lack of details to flesh out the conversations. I think the overall problem was that it was indeed not his story, and that the style shift, along with the timeline issues (both within the story and in the publishing world) made it very difficult to write a top-shelf fantasy. Sanderson did his best, and the end product to me is pretty readable, but far from great.

The thing is, Sanderson's books are so long because there's tons of filler. And I don't mean filler between lines of dialogue. I mean entire chapters that repeat or many times squarely contradict what happened to a character before. And that's understandable, since Brandon doesn't get these characters that he didn't create. But lets not pretend these books are tightly written or anything.

And whatever one feels about the length of the books, plain dialogue with no framework built out of character actions and thought process is just plain bad writing. Its something reviewers have pointed out as a weakness in Brandon's own books.

And in WoT, the absence of such things is glaring. Sanderson need not have done it to the extent RJ did. But not doing it at all in so many important conversations just takes too much from the story. For a good example, read the chapter where Verin visits Egwene in tGS. Then imagine that most of Egwene's thoughts are stripped away. The impact of that chapter will reduce markedly.

[Samsaptakas]

I don't blame Sanderson for not getting some of the characters right. They are not his creation. I think only Author can truly understand his characters. In this forum, lot of brilliant characters analysis are done all the time. But, I doubt they could write honest chapter of those characters.

[Rhom]

Being upset because Avi was missing for a few days is getting a bit bent out of shape needlessly IMHO. It won't matter to the narrative and only the freakishly obsessive fans will track the timeline closely enough to know that something is missing.

As to the jumbled timeline that is TGS and ToM, I think it was necessary. Sanderson had to hit it out of the park with TGS and by making it a self-contained story with a tight narrative that focused on Rand and Egwene I feel that he suceeded with it. What we were left with was the need to play catch-up a bit in the follow-up, but by then Sanderson had established himself as an acceptable vessel for the completion of the series.

[Humble Asskicker]

It's interesting that some people, passionate about their opinions as they are, seem unwilling to recognize that their feelings may simultaneously be perfectly valid, for them, but also put them in the clear, overwhelming minority.

I think it's quite fine for people to vent their frustration at a product they find wanting. Poor luck for them that they have to be the 1% who have those feelings of disappointment, but since they lost the lottery, they might as well take whatever cathartic measures they can.

However, it's kind of tragic the extent in which they are so enraptured by their own opinions, locked as they are in a downward spiral of abrasive disdain for something, to the point where their cathasis requires that other people share their misery, and that no one should be able to enjoy the product they despise. It's even more offensive to them to consider that they may be way outside the popular opinion, so their justification is that the masses have unrefined tastes and are too stupid to tell the difference between quality writing and tripe...and so forth.

Well, the fact of the matter is that while you'll see a few voices shouting for all to hear that Sanderson's approach is shit and the guy is a terrible hack who isn't worthy to lick Jordan's boots, or that he lacks any decent virtue as an author, etc., etc., these opinions are the minority.

Based on goodreads, the average score for Path of Daggers, Winter's Heart and Crossroads of Twilight is 3.80. Knife of Dreams has a higher reception, with a score of 4.03.

But guess what? The Gathering Storm is rated at an average review score of 4.32. And Towers of Midnight, which is acknowledged by some of the more vocal members of dragonmount as a great steaming pile of crap, has a score of 4.40 (roughly what I would rate it, as it knocked my socks off). These two scores are well above the scores of any book RJ himself authored. And the sample size for these reviews is in the tens of thousand, so that makes them about as trustworthy a metric as any available. Amazon backs this score up: PoD-KoD range from 2 1/2 stars to 3 stars. The Gathering Storm scores at 4 1/2 stars (the highest scored book in the series on Amazon) and Towers of Midnight scores at 4 stars (the same rating as the rest of the WoT books).

Clearly, the majority is very pleased with Sanderson and do not share the gripes that have been permeating dragonmount.

For my part, I'm very happy that I'm one of the majority. There are occasional false notes in the series, and there are some criticisms that I agree with, but I personally think even RJ couldn't have written a better conclusion to the series, and despite my grievances I will always love the Wheel of Time. Too bad a small few can't, but hey, complain if it helps.

Really, the only thing to take from this is that the fan forums are great places to vent your bullshit vitriol, but not so great an area to get reliable feedback.