Reasons why Jon would be a good king.

[El Guapo]

Jon threatens Rast, not Alliser. And that doesn't really justify his failure to instruct Pyp who was there before Samwell shows up. As to the why, who knows? The Night's Watch keeps dogs, though, and it's possible that Mormont believed that Ghost would be helpful. Qhorin certainly thought so. And Ghost did end up saving Mormont's life, so it would appear to have been the right call.

I know he threatened Rast but by doing so he undermind Alliser's authority. As for the Ghost thing I was joking though it is an interesting question as to why he was allowed to bring him there.

[Addam of Hull]

I know he threatened Rast but by doing so he undermind Alliser's authority. As for the Ghost thing I was joking though it is an interesting question as to why he was allowed to bring him there.

Well, that's true enough. I don't necessarily believe Jon was in the wrong for that, but there's room to argue if you believe the chain of command is more important than the well-being of Sam. And yes, it is. I suspect there might be some nepotism involved -- Mormont wants to curry favor with the Starks so he allows Jon his direwolf. He gives Ser Waymar Royce a command because he doesn't want to offend his father. The working relationship between the Watch and House Stark has been historically important, so it's possible.

[Arya Targaryen]

I know he threatened Rast but by doing so he undermind Alliser's authority. As for the Ghost thing I was joking though it is an interesting question as to why he was allowed to bring him there.

Teaching Sam anything never was Thorne's main concern. If Jon did nothing, he would have encourage other boys (like Rast) to be very cruel to Sam, like hitting him even after he yielded, and that would have ended with Sam's death. Killing weak/fat/coward boys is not the Master at Arms' duty. Especially when they don't have enough men, and there are some jobs Sam could do, which didn't involve fighting. Actually, there is a job he could do better than anybody else. Alliser's job was to train the recruits to find out, what job they will be able to do. But he never did that. Never taught anything, and those who were not good enough to pick up swordfighting along the way, for him, were just waste.

[Minsc]

I don't necessarily disagree that a harsher man, like Thorne, would be good as a Master-at-Arms for Castle Black, but it's still noted in AGOT that Thorne hadn't taught Pyp how to properly hold a sword. That should be one of the first things they learn and, if Pyp hasn't been taught that, then it calls in to question Thorne's competence. For what it's worth, I think Thorne would be better suited for a different position.

Pyp joined around the same time as Jon, and he has likely never held a sword before in his life thus it would likely take considerable amount of time for him to properly learn all the correct techniques and remember them.

It could be quite possible that Thorne told him how to properly hold a sword, only for Pyp to continually slip back into his comfort standard of treating it like a dagger which he might have more experienced with. Simply, it isn't like Thorne is teaching them based on the same standard that Ser Rodrick would have been given in regards to Jon and Robb. As these are adults or older teenagers with their already set standards, not young children without any experience that are more easily molded into what their teachers desire.

So I doubt that Thorne was intentionally allowing them to be terrible fighters.

Also, Thorne being a possible shitty teacher doesn't make it okay for Jon to attempt to kill him.

[Nictarion]

Says more about the state of the NW more than the leadership seeing as the last NW LC was also assassinated by his own people.

There's a difference between the ones who killed Mormont just because they wanted to eat Craster's food and rape his women, and long time high ranking officers of the watch wanting Jon gone because they feel he's hurting the watch.

[Nictarion]

I hate to say it, but I would have to agree that Jon will die just like his brother and his father, while trying to save someone else. It's not what most people want, but it tends to be a trend with GRRM, tragic deaths of heroic characters. I am starting to get the feeling that Stanis will take over the wall. He will either leave his crazy wife or she will die before the end, and I think whoever takes over the kingdom will send him there instead of killing him for his roll in all of this. I think Stanis would actually make a good commander on the wall, he is kind of hard and cold hearted, but they kind of need someone like that ( sadly , Jon is to soft hearted and will end him and his career). I can see a couple of people allowing him to do that if he promises to behave himself ( like they wanted to do with Ned before Joffrey killed him). The more I read Dany's chapters, the more I believe she is not meant to rule the 7 kingdoms, but she will conquer Easteros , then her and her dragons will defeat the Others and send them back until another long winter, then she will go home ( she has come to love her people she has collected way to much to just up and send them back after she fights all of those wars). I am trying to reread some books, and I am thinking they are either setting up Dany's brother to rule ( or he is going to get himself killed really soon) or Tyrion. I can see GRRM letting Tyrion rule and Sansa finally getting to be queen ( I think she has done a lot of growing up in the past few books and would make a very good queen after all). I would have to say that Tyrion has done the best job out of all of the characteres actually leading other people. Dany faultered some in the last book, and Jon as well. Dany's brother is just to young and inexperienced leading anyone and he seems to quick to act, doesn't really think things out. I can also see Dany letting Tyrion rule on her behalf, kind of like an exhaulted hand of the queen kind of role.

Oh well, I have changed my mind on some of these predictions of mine several times now and I am sure I will many more times before this is all over :eek:

Dany's brothers are dead. If Aegon is real he is her nephew.

[Nictarion]

Concerning Thorne, I think a man of his harshness is needed for the job. Look at the crop he's given. Murderers, rapists, thieves. He has to turn them in to soldiers. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but a man like him is needed for the NW..

I agree. Jon realizes this when he appoints Leathers as the new master at arms.

[Nictarion]

Nvm

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I agree. Jon realizes this when he appoints Leathers as the new master at arms.

that is correct, he needs a hard man like Thorne to be master at Arms. But he also needs a master at arms that actually teaches the baisics.

[Addam of Hull]

Pyp joined around the same time as Jon, and he has likely never held a sword before in his life thus it would likely take considerable amount of time for him to properly learn all the correct techniques and remember them.

It could be quite possible that Thorne told him how to properly hold a sword, only for Pyp to continually slip back into his comfort standard of treating it like a dagger which he might have more experienced with. Simply, it isn't like Thorne is teaching them based on the same standard that Ser Rodrick would have been given in regards to Jon and Robb. As these are adults or older teenagers with their already set standards, not young children without any experience that are more easily molded into what their teachers desire.

So I doubt that Thorne was intentionally allowing them to be terrible fighters.

Also, Thorne being a possible shitty teacher doesn't make it okay for Jon to attempt to kill him.

That's not what we're told, though. Jon notes that Alliser had never shown Pyp the right way to hold a sword. Maybe Jon's being unfair or maybe Pyp just forgot how to, but there's nothing in the text to support that. I'm not condemning Ser Alliser, but he seems to be a poor master-at-arms, so he's probably better suited for a different task.

And I never suggested that it did. Jon attacking Thorne is not okay. His emotions got the better of him and he ought to have known better.

[Berkilak]

I'm confused why they would not apply? Just because something is in a fictional universe doesn't mean principles of the real universe do not. The people in Westeros are still people and have all of the same characteristics of people.

You're dismissing his work and saying the "burden" to state why it must still apply is on him/her? Well, That Makes Sense.

Read your own link. I'm not the one making any claim.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

Read your own link. I'm not the one making any claim.

Westeros is based on the Middle Ages, not the Classical, and Westeros is a fictional universe, separate from our own. Plato's writings do not apply. Unless you wish to explain why they would.

That there is a claim.

[aceluby]

There's a difference between the ones who killed Mormont just because they wanted to eat Craster's food and rape his women, and long time high ranking officers of the watch wanting Jon gone because they feel he's hurting the watch.

Those 'long time high ranking officers of the watch' wanted Jon gone before he was even LC. It has nothing to do with him 'hurting the watch'. In fact, I'd say the stabbing of Jon was done illegally, since I don't think he broke the NW vows since he and the watch were threatened w/ war and murder of the LC.

[David Selig]

Actually, yes, that is a small mistake, if you can call it that. Jon was awaiting punishment for that 'crime' when he saved Jeor's life. In fact, had he sentenced Jon to death on the spot like you seem to want, Jeor would have died that night along with him. If that's the worst thing he did in his life, he lived like a saint.

So getting half of the NW members dead and the organisation needing a last minute arrival by Stannis to be saved from utter destruction is a small mistake for its leader?

And who said anything about sentencing for the death on the spot and or "the worst thing he did in his life"?

[aceluby]

So getting half of the NW members dead and the organisation needing a last minute arrival by Stannis to be saved from utter destruction is a small mistake for its leader?

And who said anything about sentencing for the death on the spot and or "the worst thing he did in his life"?

I think we're talking about two different instances. And I'd argue that the NW didn't need Stannis to be saved. Sure, it expedited the process, but it wasn't a necessity. IMO Jeor and Jon were good leaders. Yes, they both made mistakes, some more grievous than others, but no leader hasn't.

[Berkilak]

That there is a claim.

No, the claim is that Jon would make a good leader because he can be interpreted to align to facets of Plato's writing.

Unless, for some reason, you think that Plato's brand of philosophy isn't merely a philosophy but a universal truth of existence, the burden is on the person making the claim. Not the one challenging it.

[David Selig]

What exactly Jeor did that show him to be a good leader?

[Minsc]

What exactly Jeor did that show him to be a good leader?

He appointed and kept Thorne Master-at-Arms of the Night's Watch main castle, thus showing his great judgement skills of choosing individuals on their merits.

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

He appointed and kept Thorne Master-at-Arms of the Night's Watch main castle, thus showing his great judgement skills of choosing individuals on their merits.

except being blind to the fact that Thorne never cared to actually do much teaching. Qhorin would have been a far superior master at arms. The only reason he wasnt was because of how amazing of a ranger he was.

[Berkilak]

except being blind to the fact that Thorne never cared to actually do much teaching. Qhorin would have been a far superior master at arms. The only reason he wasnt was because of how amazing of a ranger he was.

In my view, it was better to have a harsh man to simply teach that such harshness exists and let the warriors arise from that rather than cripple your active force by depriving it of its most able member. Would it have been wiser to have a weak man teach them, if he happened to be a good teacher?