Heresy 116

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 116, this week’s chapter in the popular thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy started off by questioning the widely-held assumptions that the Wall and the Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that its all going to finish up with Jon Snow being identified as the lost Targaryen heir and Azor Ahai rolled into one and riding a fire-breathing dragon to victory over the icy hordes intent on destroying all life. More than two years on we still have our doubts and in general terms Heresy has expanded to encompass the whole business of Ice and Fire [as distinct from the Game of Thrones], striving to understand the conflict as a whole.

Nevertheless we still concentrate on the Wall and what lies beyond, and the Stark connection to Winter. We can also claim to know more than anybody else on the board about the Others/white walkers and warging/skinchanging.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

At first sight, stepping into our world might at first appear confusing, but what we are really engaged in is an exercise in chaos theory. While most threads concentrate on a particular issue or theory, we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, to try and reach an understanding of what may be happening through the resulting collision of ideas.

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

To kick this one off I'd like to make a couple of observations about the Crasters sons business.

In the first place although we don't actually get the Westerosi equivalent of a sworn affydavy there is no doubt from what Jon is told, from what Mormont knows and from what Sam is told that the women at Craster's place know exactly what they are talking about, and why else are those passages in there?

Then there is the nature of the white walkers themselves, both historically and in the present. They are not, and never have been, an invading army. There have only ever been a handful of them, The most we have seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar's patrol and Old Nan likewise speaks not of large numbers but of individuals leading armies of the slain, ie; wights

And why the mystery in the first place? If there really was an Other race up in the Land of Always Winter, an icy equivalent of the Ironborn, why not say so? Why deliberately cultivate the "mysterious" bit, if they are simply an enemy out to kill all living things?

And then there's the gap. They first appear during the Long Night and although we've discussed how they may not be unknown beyond the Wall in the meantime, its only now that they appear to be rising up as a threat.

As I said on the last thread, they are not an invading army; there are only a few of them, but they are having an effect out of all proportion to their numbers; we're told they are Craster's sons rather than the sons of $%^£ and +&%$£, they have been turned rather than born, so who is turning them and why?

And this is why the Craster's sons business is not the great reveal, that has yet to come and the answer is going to be a lot closer to home than it appeared when Will first saw those white shadows

[Eira Seren]

To kick this one off I'd like to make a couple of observations about the Crasters sons business.. . . snip

And then there's the gap. They first appear during the Long Night and although we've discussed how they may not be unknown beyond the Wall in the meantime, its only now that they appear to be rising up as a threat.

Am guessing that the oncoming instability factors into things, a seasonal change which is symbolically reflected in the political instability and Ned Stark leaving the North.

[wolfmaid7]

To kick this one off I'd like to make a couple of observations about the Crasters sons business.

In the first place although we don't actually get the Westerosi equivalent of a sworn affydavy there is no doubt from what Jon is told, from what Mormont knows and from what Sam is told that the women at Craster's place know exactly what they are talking about, and why else are those passages in there?

Then there is the nature of the white walkers themselves, both historically and in the present. They are not, and never have been, an invading army. There have only ever been a handful of them, The most we have seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar's patrol and Old Nan likewise speaks not of large numbers but of individuals leading armies of the slain, ie; wights

And why the mystery in the first place? If there really was an Other race up in the Land of Always Winter, an icy equivalent of the Ironborn, why not say so? Why deliberately cultivate the "mysterious" bit, if they are simply an enemy out to kill all living things?

And then there's the gap. They first appear during the Long Night and although we've discussed how they may not be unknown beyond the Wall in the meantime, its only now that they appear to be rising up as a threat.

As I said on the last thread, they are not an invading army; there are only a few of them, but they are having an effect out of all proportion to their numbers; we're told they are Craster's sons rather than the sons of $%^£ and +&%$£, they have been turned rather than born, so who is turning them and why?

And this is why the Craster's sons business is not the great reveal, that has yet to come and the answer is going to be a lot closer to home than it appeared when Will first saw those white shadows

BC I agree with you on a lot of points, but I do admit the Craster sons=Popsicles give me pause.There are a few inconsistancies that still bug me.I do believe the wives are very knowledgeable about what they have been doing.Which leads me to my question and I would like your opinion. In a community so confined , what do you think is the reason behind Gilly refering to them as "the cold gods" and The Old woman saying they are Craster's sons.Gods to Craster's sons within the same house seems weird.

[Eira Seren]

BC I agree with you on a lot of points, but I do admit the Craster sons=Popsicles give me pause.There are a few inconsistancies that still bug me.I do believe the wives are very knowledgeable about what they have been doing.Which leads me to my question and I would like your opinion. In a community so confined , what do you think is the reason behind Gilly refering to them as "the cold gods" and The Old woman saying they are Craster's sons.Gods to Craster's sons within the same house seems weird.

I know you asked for BC's opinion, but just wondering if it is some sort of generational shift? Or maybe an "inner circle" of the older women who know its the sons. They refer to them as 'the cold gods' to the younger women (who would probably want an explanation for the sacrifice)?

[addicted to snow]

In the first place although we don't actually get the Westerosi equivalent of a sworn affydavy there is no doubt from what Jon is told, from what Mormont knows and from what Sam is told that the women at Craster's place know exactly what they are talking about, and why else are those passages in there?

Why does any author utilize misdirection in order to create twists/turns? those passages are in there to mislead the majority of readers in order shock the reader at a later point… Ultimately's GRRM's goal with the passages is to make his books a more interesting read & sell more books.

--

Mormont never says that the sacrifices are collected by the Others… If he thought Craster was swelling the ranks of the Others, then he would kill Craster.

--

All Jon & Sam's passages you mention seem to prove is that Jon is a poor interrogator (Which by itself means that GRRM is sneaking something by You, the audience - otherwise Jon would have asked smarter questions), and that Craster's Wives are convinced that their Sons are collected by the Others… This only serves as proof of Craster's Wives' beliefs - nothing more...

Then there is the nature of the white walkers themselves, both historically and in the present. They are not, and never have been, an invading army. There have only ever been a handful of them, The most we have seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar's patrol and Old Nan likewise speaks not of large numbers but of individuals leading armies of the slain, ie; wights

Surely Craster has had more than 6 sons, right.? This part of your argument works against you as well...

And why the mystery in the first place? If there really was an Other race up in the Land of Always Winter, an icy equivalent of the Ironborn, why not say so? Why deliberately cultivate the "mysterious" bit, if they are simply an enemy out to kill all living things?

The books are absolutely overflowing with mysteries, this is what makes the difference between GRRM and other writers… It can be viewed as a red-herring, Temporarily shielding the true identity of the Others & their relationship with the Starks by satisfying the imagination of the average reader.

[Blade of Sunlight]

BC I agree with you on a lot of points, but I do admit the Craster sons=Popsicles give me pause.There are a few inconsistancies that still bug me.I do believe the wives are very knowledgeable about what they have been doing.Which leads me to my question and I would like your opinion. In a community so confined , what do you think is the reason behind Gilly refering to them as "the cold gods" and The Old woman saying they are Craster's sons.Gods to Craster's sons within the same house seems weird.

Well, they could always be both, Craster's sons by birth and cold god by apotheosis. By what we know from the prologue of aGoT they move and react far faster than any human, use what would be perceived as (or effectively are) magical weapons and armour, float through the snow and raise armies of the dead (supposedly), plus they "bring the cold" and look like ice made flesh, so it is entirely possible for them to be perceived as cold gods.

[TheButcherCrow]

Fuck me, what if it wasn't the walkers/others/craster's boys/the NK that raised Othor & Jafer, what if it was Bloodraven? Hear me out, O & J have always been a bit problematic, how did they rise if they were behind the wall? The Wall is said to warded & one would assume that means against the magic that raises the dead, so what's going on? Simple answer, Bloodraven. If he is the bird from Bran's dreams then he has already quite eloquently displayed his ability to reach across the wall. If CH works for BR/CotF then there is your evidence of their ability to control corpses. But why? What if BR had a vision of a future where LC Mormont led a failed ranging beyond the wall which, importantly to him & the children, led to the death of Craster and an end to their WW factory ? Anyway, Jon fucked that right up for them so now they are onto a slightly modified plan B, whatever that is? What d'ya reckon?

[Melifeather]

Bloodraven and the greenseer position is integral to the Children/Singer's plans. The role is important enough that Bran was petitioned in dreams, had Jojen and Meera physically come fetch him, had Coldhands come to greet him at the Wall, and wights tried to prevent him from entering the cave. (Or the wights are there to hurry him in and keep him there) So the reader expects Bran to play the central role. Bloodraven councils Bran to not call back the dead, in other words he cannot manipulate the past. Can we then assume that he's there to manipulate the present and the future? This must be the reason, because simply "watching" doesn't seem to have a point. The Greenseer is likely the conductor of the orchestra, which is playing the song of ice and fire.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Bloodraven and the greenseer position is integral to the Children/Singer's plans. The role is important enough that Bran was petitioned in dreams, had Jojen and Meera physically come fetch him, had Coldhands come to greet him at the Wall, and wights tried to prevent him from entering the cave. (Or the wights are there to hurry him in and keep him there) So the reader expects Bran to play the central role. Bloodraven councils Bran to not call back the dead, in other words he cannot manipulate the past. Can we then assume that he's there to manipulate the present and the future? This must be the reason, because simply "watching" doesn't seem to have a point. The Greenseer is likely the conductor of the orchestra, which is playing the song of ice and fire.

I agree, though I wouldn't think of GrSrs necessarily as a conductor, they are still players, more informed than most but not necessarily more powerful. They seem to be able to see faraway but we remain to see the extent of their powers (if they can skinchange through the trees or call something like the Hammer of Waters).

Mel seems to be able to see certain things as well so I don't think any one player can be seen as conductor, though BR can be a more discrete and astute player.

[Frey family reunion]

To kick this one off I'd like to make a couple of observations about the Crasters sons business.

In the first place although we don't actually get the Westerosi equivalent of a sworn affydavy there is no doubt from what Jon is told, from what Mormont knows and from what Sam is told that the women at Craster's place know exactly what they are talking about, and why else are those passages in there?

Then there is the nature of the white walkers themselves, both historically and in the present. They are not, and never have been, an invading army. There have only ever been a handful of them, The most we have seen are the six who scragged Ser Waymar's patrol and Old Nan likewise speaks not of large numbers but of individuals leading armies of the slain, ie; wights

And why the mystery in the first place? If there really was an Other race up in the Land of Always Winter, an icy equivalent of the Ironborn, why not say so? Why deliberately cultivate the "mysterious" bit, if they are simply an enemy out to kill all living things?

And then there's the gap. They first appear during the Long Night and although we've discussed how they may not be unknown beyond the Wall in the meantime, its only now that they appear to be rising up as a threat.

As I said on the last thread, they are not an invading army; there are only a few of them, but they are having an effect out of all proportion to their numbers; we're told they are Craster's sons rather than the sons of $%^£ and +&%$£, they have been turned rather than born, so who is turning them and why?

And this is why the Craster's sons business is not the great reveal, that has yet to come and the answer is going to be a lot closer to home than it appeared when Will first saw those white shadows

Well I'm going to repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread (probably never a good idea to post on page 21 if you want anybody to respond).

1. In addition to the above questions by BC, why do the White Walkers appear the way they do? Why are they "dressed" in armor and why do they carry swords? If they are an ancient race that predates the First Man why do they appear like a Southron knight?

2. I've tried to bring this up before but no one really seems to want to revisit the topic. But based on Sam's observations when Puddles dissolved, they really do seem to have the properties of solid nitrogen and liquid oxygen. Basically they appear to be super frozen air.

3. If Craster's sons are being "transformed" into White Walkers, how does this transformation process take place? Is the flesh, blood and bone of these human children actually turned into this material of the White Walkers? I contend that it is more likely that the souls or animus of the children are being place within the "bodies" of these White Walkers to give them life.

4. In summary, I think that it is likely that the White Walkers are created magically, probably using frozen air and animated by the animus of Craster's children, which leads them to being identified as Craster's sons. Basically GRRM is giving us Golems made of frozen air.

I bring up Golem because one of the most famous Golems in folklore is the Golem of Prague. A Jewish folk tale where a Golem was created to protect the village from anti-Semitism. One interesting aspects of the Golem is that he could turn invisible and summon the spirits of the dead. Which is exactly what GRRM seems to have his White Walkers do as well.

[Black Crow]

The books are absolutely overflowing with mysteries, this is what makes the difference between GRRM and other writers… It can be viewed as a red-herring, Temporarily shielding the true identity of the Others & their relationship with the Starks by satisfying the imagination of the average reader.

To a limited extent I agree, but...

What I'm suggesting is that the beginning we're told there is a terrible race of Others up in the Ice who pose a threat to all life.

The Craster's sons business is not a red herring in itself but rather tells us that the first statement is a red herring. The white walkers are not a mysterious other race and the reason why GRRM has dismissed their having a culture is that they are not born and bred, but created, just as Mel's shadow babies are created.

And that then leaves us with the question of who is creating this terrible sell-sword company and why?

I agree also that there is a link to the Starks, but is it a distant link or are others, including the Singers, more closely linked at the present time?

[Black Crow]

Well I'm going to repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread (probably never a good idea to post on page 21 if you want anybody to respond).

1. In addition to the above questions by BC, why do the White Walkers appear the way they do? Why are they "dressed" in armor and why do they carry swords? If they are an ancient race that predates the First Man why do they appear like a Southron knight?

2. I've tried to bring this up before but no one really seems to want to revisit the topic. But based on Sam's observations when Puddles dissolved, they really do seem to have the properties of solid nitrogen and liquid oxygen. Basically they appear to be super frozen air.

3. If Craster's sons are being "transformed" into White Walkers, how does this transformation process take place? Is the flesh, blood and bone of these human children actually turned into this material of the White Walkers? I contend that it is more likely that the souls or animus of the children are being place within the "bodies" of these White Walkers to give them life.

4. In summary, I think that it is likely that the White Walkers are created magically, probably using frozen air and animated by the animus of Craster's children, which leads them to being identified as Craster's sons. Basically GRRM is giving us Golems made of frozen air.

I bring up Golem because one of the most famous Golems in folklore is the Golem of Prague. A Jewish folk tale where a Golem was created to protect the village from anti-Semitism. One interesting aspects of the Golem is that he could turn invisible and summon the spirits of the dead. Which is exactly what GRRM seems to have his White Walkers do as well.

:agree:

and have argued exactly the same thing, as being a solution which answers the "practical" questions and is consistent with Stannis' description of them as demons made of snow and ice and cold - a description which I suspect he picked up from Trouserless Bob's World Book.

[alienarea]

:agree:

and have argued exactly the same thing, as being a solution which answers the "practical" questions and is consistent with Stannis' description of them as demons made of snow and ice and cold - a description which I suspect he picked up from Trouserless Bob's World Book.

And also fits with the "Neverborn" description from the advanced copies that popped up a few heresies ago.

IMHO we need an ice equivalent of Melisandre. Would that be Bloodraven or Quaithe?

Maybe unrelated, but could Bran's vision of dragons in Asshai be a vision of the future and this is where Daenery's dragons will end up by the end of the story?

[Melifeather]

And also fits with the "Neverborn" description from the advanced copies that popped up a few heresies ago.

IMHO we need an ice equivalent of Melisandre. Would that be Bloodraven or Quaithe?

Maybe unrelated, but could Bran's vision of dragons in Asshai be a vision of the future and this is where Daenery's dragons will end up by the end of the story?

What about Val? She seems like she could be an ice priestess.

I see Bloodraven, and Bran after him, as being in the middle orchestrating the song.

[Stark@heart]

Using Caster's sons, meaning babies as offerings to the Cold Gods makes me think of the movie Skeleton Key.

For those who haven't seen it, It involves Voodoo with the practictioners- high priest and priestess ( not the average joe) being able to switch their consciousness into the bodies of their victim, thus they are able to live forever? as long as they can find suitable hosts, i.e Those who believe in magic / Voodoo and get close enough to them to work the spell / ritual.

I think it's something similar happening at Crasters, It's either the bloodline and / or the belief and therefore the giving of the life that makes the sacrifice useful.

[Frey family reunion]

What about Val? She seems like she could be an ice priestess.

I see Bloodraven, and Bran after him, as being in the middle orchestrating the song.

My issue with Bloodraven being the principal mover and shaker is that he seems too addled. Snowfyre brought up an interesting point about Archmaester Walgrave possibly being like Bloodraven a skinchanger involved with Ravens. They both are incredibly old and they both seem fairly confused, probably because as Varamyr was warned:

Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Now if there is another, a true abomination who routinely take over persons including skinchangers, perhaps he has taken over Bloodraven and is using his powers to his own end and perhaps he is the one truly behind the machinations beyond the Wall.

[Melifeather]

My issue with Bloodraven being the principal mover and shaker is that he seems too addled. Snowfyre brought up an interesting point about Archmaester Walgrave possibly being like Bloodraven a skinchanger involved with Ravens. They both are incredibly old and they both seem fairly confused, probably because as Varamyr was warned:

Now if there is another, a true abomination who routinely take over persons including skinchangers, perhaps he has taken over Bloodraven and is using his powers to his own end and perhaps he is the one truly behind the machinations beyond the Wall.

I get the feeling you have someone in mind?

[redriver]

I get the feeling you have someone in mind?

I hope Ser Walton Skaggs is not going to be implicated in this.

[Melifeather]

I hope Ser Walton Skaggs is not going to be implicated in this.

Or Colonel Mustard.