Heresy 117

[Stark@heart]

Just to throw out something cracked I've pondered from time to time.

Could the Starks of old have bred with a COTF. I know their a different species and all but...

If the theory of human babies being turned or grown into Icy whatevers flies, then why not a human/cotf hybred?

It could explain how the famous Builder was able to communicate and learn from the COTF, even if he is only a myth, the story's based on someone or something?

The Targ somehow have magical blood, which is tied to Fire. The Starks somehow have magical blood, which to me seems to be more tied to Nature than Ice. We don't know yet.

So what do you think? In a world with Shadowbabies, resurrections of the dead and people turning into stone, why not some crossbreeding?

[TheButcherCrow]

Not sure it was built that way, that is just how it currently stands or has for the past while.

Truth is we don't know but if it was built that way it does beg the question, why?

Just had a thought, as I said a few posts ago I was rereading the last chapter of Feast when Sam arrives in Oldtown and as usual I started wondering about "the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler". As per, my first thoughts always go to the pair of sphinxes at the citadel. Your classic sphinx, lion, eagle & serpent with the face of a man/woman. Obv that leads you toward the Alleras/Sarella route but it's too freaking neat. So I thought about the words again, "was the riddle", past tense, huh? So, Valyrian Sphinxes are significantly different from those at the Citadel, they have the body of a dragon with the face of a man/woman. If Aemon had recently figured out that the "prince who was promised" was actually "the princess who was promised" due to a gender neutral pronoun in ancient Valyrian and given he was ancient & dying, I think those two could be linked.. So the Freehold was on the go for what, 5000yrs? It started out as a bunch of goatherds who found dragons. Now I don't know but I suspect that these simple goatherds had little or no written language. Given that it would place them at around the same time as the FM, they would have faced the same problems preserving for posterity the important knowledge of what they really found inside the Fourteen Fires that the FM encountered preserving any knowledge of what they found in the ice? So to the sphinx, I think the ancient Valyrians left their ancestors a clue what to look out for, the blood of the dragon mixing with the blood of humanity, a dragon made human that may come as either male or female. What do you think?

[wolfmaid7]

Truth is we don't know but if it was built that way it does beg the question, why?

Just had a thought, as I said a few posts ago I was rereading the last chapter of Feast when Sam arrives in Oldtown and as usual I started wondering about "the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler". As per, my first thoughts always go to the pair of sphinxes at the citadel. Your classic sphinx, lion, eagle & serpent with the face of a man/woman. Obv that leads you toward the Alleras/Sarella route but it's too freaking neat. So I thought about the words again, "was the riddle", past tense, huh? So, Valyrian Sphinxes are significantly different from those at the Citadel, they have the body of a dragon with the face of a man/woman. If Aemon had recently figured out that the "prince who was promised" was actually "the princess who was promised" due to a gender neutral pronoun in ancient Valyrian and given he was ancient & dying, I think those two could be linked.. So the Freehold was on the go for what, 5000yrs? It started out as a bunch of goatherds who found dragons. Now I don't know but I suspect that these simple goatherds had little or no written language. Given that it would place them at around the same time as the FM, they would have faced the same problems preserving for posterity the important knowledge of what they really found inside the Fourteen Fires that the FM encountered preserving any knowledge of what they found in the ice? So to the sphinx, I think the ancient Valyrians left their ancestors a clue what to look out for, the blood of the dragon mixing with the blood of humanity, a dragon made human that may come as either male or female. What do you think?

I interpreted the the riddle as Aemon pointing out how to make the union between person and Dragon. The basis for my theory was the Japanese myth of the DragonKing who fell in love with the Empreor's daughter. The Dragon in the story was a shapeshifter who would change into a man. I believe to this day all Empreors in Japan believe they were decendents of the Dragonking and a mortal woman.

[TheButcherCrow]

I interpreted the the riddle as Aemon pointing out how to make the union between person and Dragon. The basis for my theory was the Japanese myth of the DragonKing who fell in love with the Empreor's daughter. The Dragon in the story was a shapeshifter who would change into a man. I believe to this day all Empreors in Japan believe they were decendents of the Dragonking and a mortal woman.

What if the early Valyrians had to make some sort of blood sacrifice to control the dragons? Maybe a sort of fire version of Craster but on a much larger scale? Perhaps that's where the Valyrian tradition of inbreeding came from, an effort to keep the original bloodlines pure?

[alienarea]

Nah that's the point I'm making, Aegon only tooled up 300 years ago and the state of Moat Caillin indicates it was abandoned long before that.

As to the Singers again we come to the old inconsistency in the history of Westeros. We're told the Pact between Men and Singers endured until the Andals came and started burning the weirwoods and slaughtering the Singers [there doesn't incidentally seem to be any reference to the First Men and Singers fighting side by side against the Andals. I rather get the impression the First Men simply stood aside and let the Andals get on with it. Yet we're also told that only in the North etc etc... so, given that the Starks and their people keep the Old Gods the Singers should have found a refuge there, but no, not only do the Singers flee beyond the Wall but [a] the building of Castle Black is contemporary with that flight, and so presumably is the arrival of Andals on the Wall.

So what's really going on?

Well, since this thread is called Heresy ...

I can't stop thinking about Mizzi Mas Dur (sp?), the tent, the man in flames and the wolf.

Assuming the man in flames represents Rhollor and or the Targaryens, the wolf would be the great other and or the Starks?

I trace warging/skinchanging to shadowbinding, i.e. the shadows of humans and animals get merged. If so, there must be a Stark connection to Asshai or shadowbinding originates from Westeros? Is this why Melisandre ...

Bottom heresy: the Starks may not be as First Men as they claim?

Bonus: If the Targaryens are "fire and blood", are the Starks "ice and sperm" (Night King's seed, Craster's boys)? Who practices sperm magic?

[TheButcherCrow]

Who practices sperm magic?

Worst. Vegas show. Ever.

[Eira Seren]

Worst. Vegas show. Ever.

Clearly I've wandered into the conversation at that awkward moment.

[wolfmaid7]

What if the early Valyrians had to make some sort of blood sacrifice to control the dragons? Maybe a sort of fire version of Craster but on a much larger scale? Perhaps that's where the Valyrian tradition of inbreeding came from, an effort to keep the original bloodlines pure?

Did all Valyrians practice inbreeding though or just the Targs? I think whatever kind of magic that makes the Direwolves choose the Starks,is the same that makes the Dragons choose Targs.

But i do believe that prior to that their was a bit of blood magic involved especially when it came to using the horns and sorcery.

A question though,didn't the FM originate in Esoss? And wasn't Valyria a part of Essos..... That's a major link between them,so really the trait the FM have may not be a FM trait but Esossi trait.

Well, since this thread is called Heresy ...

I can't stop thinking about Mizzi Mas Dur (sp?), the tent, the man in flames and the wolf.

Assuming the man in flames represents Rhollor and or the Targaryens, the wolf would be the great other and or the Starks?

I trace warging/skinchanging to shadowbinding, i.e. the shadows of humans and animals get merged. If so, there must be a Stark connection to Asshai or shadowbinding originates from Westeros? Is this why Melisandre ...

Bottom heresy: the Starks may not be as First Men as they claim?

Bonus: If the Targaryens are "fire and blood", are the Starks "ice and sperm" (Night King's seed, Craster's boys)? Who practices sperm magic?

I did a double take with that one.......Sex magic might be the term your looking for.So far i would say Mel for sure and maybe if the tales are true the woman beyond the wall who the Night's King knocked snow boots with.

[alienarea]

Did all Valyrians practice inbreeding though or just the Targs? I think whatever kind of magic that makes the Direwolves choose the Starks,is the same that makes the Dragons choose Targs.

But i do believe that prior to that their was a bit of blood magic involved especially when it came to using the horns and sorcery.

A question though,didn't the FM originate in Esoss? And wasn't Valyria a part of Essos..... That's a major link between them,so really the trait the FM have may not be a FM trait but Esossi trait.

I did a double take with that one.......Sex magic might be the term your looking for.So far i would say Mel for sure and maybe if the tales are true the woman beyond the wall who the Night's King knocked snow boots with.

Not being picky, and apologies in case someone was offended by the term sperm magic, but I don't think sex magic but maybe seed magic? The seed is strong, power in king's blood ...

[wolfmaid7]

Not being picky, and apologies in case someone was offended by the term sperm magic, but I don't think sex magic but maybe seed magic? The seed is strong, power in king's blood ...

No offense, but this comes about because of a sexual act.To label it seed magic would just be overcomplicating something already explained by it being just sex magic.

[alienarea]

No offense, but this comes about because of a sexual act.To label it seed magic would just be overcomplicating something already explained by it being just sex magic.

Since I brought it up I have to disagree. I do not necessarily see a sexual act involved. We stumbled across this some heresies back, IIRC there was an argument whether the Night King giving his seed was a sexual act, don't know what came out of it.

Also, Varys balls were used in some ritual. And he does things for the Children (of the Forest?).

[Kyll.Ing.]

This question must surely have been brought up a thousand times, but I think I'll ask it anyway:

Can we be certain that the Others are going to invade Westeros?

The timeline of Others events is a little iffy, but their reappearance seems to coincide nicely with Mance's ambitions of uniting the Wildlings for a decisive attack on the Wall. He managed to bring them all together in a great host, then went around opening graves and such in search of ancient weapons.

The Others appear to have lived peacefully next to the Wildlings for eight thousand years. In a sense, the Frostfangs serve as a great wall between the Haunted Forest and the Land of Always Winter. Alternately, the Haunted Forest is a sort of DMZ between the LoAW and the Realms of Men. This "buffer zone" thinking appears to have worked well for several thousand years, and neither Other nor Man have tried to cross another's borders for so long.

But then suddenly, the Wildlings start organizing themselves. Forming an army. Breaking open graves (sacrilege!), looking for weapons. Surely the White Walkers might have perceived this as a threat, and decided to act before the Men came into their little Neverland with that nasty frozen fire and dragons and whatnot? Maybe they decided to simply chase Men out of the DMZ, and get them all safely behind the Wall so the LoAW could remain peaceful. Now that the Wildlings have all gone South, their mission could be accomplished. The Night's Watch, the great sacred order protecting the realms of Men, could be built on a big misunderstanding of the peace treaty from 8000 years ago, and it has only gotten worse since all they know about the Others has been based on childrens' tales.

[Melifeather]

maybe MC being left unmanned is part of the deal Torrhen cut with Aegon? Anyway, it's interesting to ponder whether MC existed prior to the formation of the neck or if it post-dates that event. If it pre-dates it then it's purpose is not what it appears to be and if it comes after then I think I have a plausible scenario. As the Andal's moved out of the Vale and across Westeros preaching the Faith, the singers & FM who kept the old gods would have naturally moved North. After the Neck is created, the FM whack up Moat Cailin and the Andals get no further, by force of arms anyway. Several interesting things, the creation of the Neck would seem to have created two distinct ethnic groups, the crannogmen & the ironmen, who are currently at blows with each other. Also, having just reread Sam's last chapter in Feast I really can't wait for the world book's version of what went down between Torrhen & Aegon. You can take it to the bank that any explanation it offers will b a bald faced lie. I've been thinking about the change in purpose of the NW. I wonder when they got a maester? What if the maesters made a deal with the singers? You keep the WW that side of the Wall and we will make sure that the NW starts to place greater value upon keeping "Wildlings" on that same side. A new pact? Have the children broken it? Has Jon broken it? What if the maesters "invited" Aegon I to Westeros just so they could eventually kill off the dragons?

That's funny, Moat Cailin is built like the castles on the Wall, only defensible from one side. Is that significant?

Just like England has Hadrian's Wall and Antoines Wall, I think Westeros had two Walls: Moat Caillin and the Wall. I think the breach of Moat Caillin is what brought on the Long Night and the water magic used by the Children created White Walkers.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

Worst. Vegas show. Ever.

:lol:

Also, Varys balls were used in some ritual. And he does things for the Children (of the Forest?).

"Varys' Magic Balls" would make a great handle.

I was just inspired by the Barbrey Dustin thread, so I'll indulge in a little cross-posting, but: what if "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" was a bastardization of the earlier phrase, "a Stark must always return to Winterfell?" We know Lyanna is buried there, because "she was a Stark. This is her place." And GRRM did make a point in aDwD to remind us that Ned ain't there. Are there any known Starks not buried in the warded tombs of Winterfell?

[ETA: Oh, right. Robb, obviously. Where is Robb's carcass, anyway?]

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

....Are there any known Starks not buried in the warded tombs of Winterfell?

[ETA: Oh, right. Robb, obviously. Where is Robb's carcass, anyway?]

Also Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon... Benjen. But I jest! ;)

I don't think we know enough about the extended Stark family to answer the question. That said, it is clear that any Stark of Winterfell - not just the Lords Stark - may be buried in the crypts. We did have that discussion recently, and there are enough references in the text to have cleared that up.

[Jojen]

Truth is we don't know but if it was built that way it does beg the question, why?

Just had a thought, as I said a few posts ago I was rereading the last chapter of Feast when Sam arrives in Oldtown and as usual I started wondering about "the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler". As per, my first thoughts always go to the pair of sphinxes at the citadel. Your classic sphinx, lion, eagle & serpent with the face of a man/woman. Obv that leads you toward the Alleras/Sarella route but it's too freaking neat. So I thought about the words again, "was the riddle", past tense, huh? So, Valyrian Sphinxes are significantly different from those at the Citadel, they have the body of a dragon with the face of a man/woman. If Aemon had recently figured out that the "prince who was promised" was actually "the princess who was promised" due to a gender neutral pronoun in ancient Valyrian and given he was ancient & dying, I think those two could be linked.. So the Freehold was on the go for what, 5000yrs? It started out as a bunch of goatherds who found dragons. Now I don't know but I suspect that these simple goatherds had little or no written language. Given that it would place them at around the same time as the FM, they would have faced the same problems preserving for posterity the important knowledge of what they really found inside the Fourteen Fires that the FM encountered preserving any knowledge of what they found in the ice? So to the sphinx, I think the ancient Valyrians left their ancestors a clue what to look out for, the blood of the dragon mixing with the blood of humanity, a dragon made human that may come as either male or female. What do you think?

I've been wondering about the riddle of the sphinx too. There are also Valyrian sphinxes at the Red Keep. I think it's significant that they are portrayed as dragons with human faces, perhaps symbolizing human control or dominion over dragons/magic, or maybe it represents humanity within the beast.

In Essos, the Dothraki had carried off a "king" sphinx statue but left the "queen" behind. Tyrion thought it was an omen, but then he also believed that most tales about sphinxes are a bunch of baloney. This might have just been a nod to Viserys's exit from the picture and Dany's perseverance.

[Black Crow]

This question must surely have been brought up a thousand times, but I think I'll ask it anyway:

Can we be certain that the Others are going to invade Westeros?

The timeline of Others events is a little iffy, but their reappearance seems to coincide nicely with Mance's ambitions of uniting the Wildlings for a decisive attack on the Wall. He managed to bring them all together in a great host, then went around opening graves and such in search of ancient weapons.

The Others appear to have lived peacefully next to the Wildlings for eight thousand years. In a sense, the Frostfangs serve as a great wall between the Haunted Forest and the Land of Always Winter. Alternately, the Haunted Forest is a sort of DMZ between the LoAW and the Realms of Men. This "buffer zone" thinking appears to have worked well for several thousand years, and neither Other nor Man have tried to cross another's borders for so long.

But then suddenly, the Wildlings start organizing themselves. Forming an army. Breaking open graves (sacrilege!), looking for weapons. Surely the White Walkers might have perceived this as a threat, and decided to act before the Men came into their little Neverland with that nasty frozen fire and dragons and whatnot? Maybe they decided to simply chase Men out of the DMZ, and get them all safely behind the Wall so the LoAW could remain peaceful. Now that the Wildlings have all gone South, their mission could be accomplished. The Night's Watch, the great sacred order protecting the realms of Men, could be built on a big misunderstanding of the peace treaty from 8000 years ago, and it has only gotten worse since all they know about the Others has been based on childrens' tales.

The short answer is that no, we can't be certain the white walkers are about to invade Westeros. Indeed, if the white walkers are Craster's sons then they patently aren't an invading army. Nor, for that matter, are they another race which has been co-existing peacefully with the wildlings for the last 8,000 years or however long it has been really. They are being created as and when required for a purpose and what that particular purpose might be this time around remains to be seen.

[addicted to snow]

New Theory:

Jorah Mormont is Azor Ahi...

Why?

-- Dany Promised Jorah that one day she would forge him the finest Valeryian Steel Sword ever made...

-- The Old Bear's Dying Wish for his son to join the night's watch...

Probably not what GRRM has in mind… but I like the idea that somewhere hidden in this story is the eventual hero… & I enjoy trying to spot the clues...

After all, someone has to stop Jon Snow...

[lokisnow]

Has Heresy ever discussed the possibility that Bran the Builder was actually a Singer/CotF himself? Bran the Builder/Singer/CotF would have been the child exchanged and a Stark child became the first greenseer.

I've thought this for a long time, but ultimately I think it's relatively unimportant. BtB being a singer would explain how he's around for so many centuries, and a singer being the founder of the Stark line might also make sense, on the other hand a white walker also being the founder of the Stark line might also make sense.

The Singers used the Hammer of the Waters (unsuccessfully) during this war, which proves that there was plenty of magic available... and since the Wall was constructed by the Singers and/or the FM, surely they could have made an exception and opened some gates for their new winter army.

Truman used nukes twice on Japan, so we know there was plenty of uranium available to use it on Korea, Vietnam, various unsavory adventures in Central and South America, Iraq and Afghanistan, how come we didn't use it again?

Magic generally has a price. There is also strong suggestions that magic is a finite resource. Using the hammer of the water does not indicate that they could keep using magic like that, it may very well be that using the hammer of the waters meant they couldn't do any magic for a long while, because they'd depleted their armory to use it.

Yes it does seem strange that so many southerners are in the Night's Watch. I guess it's partly b/c it's mostly criminals, and the south has more people and therefore more criminals to send to the Wall. But why do the southern kingdoms support the Watch at all? Why would the Andals help with this FM tradition, sending men to stand on a big wall and look for an enemy that hasn't been seen in 8,000 years, and that they themselves have never encountered?

Resources are finite, and the Watch takes over the expenses of caring and feeding prisoners. It's a great way to save money, and it allows you to administer a death sentence (joining the night's watch) without suffering the cultural backlashes against the death sentence from your serfs. Also, no other Lords seem willing to carry out a death sentence other than Ned, Robb, and Joffrey, so sending away a prisoner is also a way to avoid having to oversee executions.

There's also the thought that the Night's Watch oath is an execution ceremony, that all members of the Night's Watch are supposed to say their vows at a heart tree, be sacrificed there, and become a Walker. Or maybe a wight, The night's watch wears black because it's part of the truce terms so that they are still visible to men. That's why the thirteen walkers in the end of S4E4 were all wearing Night's Watch Black.

Does anybody have any ideas as to why Hodor was afraid of the crypts at the specific time that Bran wanted to be taken down there in a Game of Thrones?

Because Mance or another personage was living in the crypts at that specific time and Hodor knew it. By the time of ACOK, the crypts were again empty, and so Hodor was not afraid of them.

Or do you really believe that Mance came to winterfell to see a southern king? Nope, Mance came to winterfell because he wanted to pluck a winter rose (stark girl) like in the legends of old. Inconveniently for him, the time when Sansa would be old enough to seduce/steal and rape/"marry" corresponded with an immense amount of activity and attention at winterfell and Sansa and Arya both departing. With so much happening, he stuck around for a long time gathering information. Once he heard Ned died, he knew he had to get back beyond the wall fast because travel would be very difficult for a long time while the north was mobilizing. and with the north completely depleted of defense, he realized it was a golden opportunity to unite the wildlings and settle them south of the wall. :P

Or, if Mance wasn't trying to fulfill prophecies ala Rhaegar, another character may have been in the crypts, attempting to act as a conduit for Bloodraven to communicate with Bran. Probably Leaf.

[Melifeather]

Just to throw out something cracked I've pondered from time to time.

Could the Starks of old have bred with a COTF. I know their a different species and all but...

If the theory of human babies being turned or grown into Icy whatevers flies, then why not a human/cotf hybred?

It could explain how the famous Builder was able to communicate and learn from the COTF, even if he is only a myth, the story's based on someone or something?

The Targ somehow have magical blood, which is tied to Fire. The Starks somehow have magical blood, which to me seems to be more tied to Nature than Ice. We don't know yet.

So what do you think? In a world with Shadowbabies, resurrections of the dead and people turning into stone, why not some crossbreeding?

I think Bran the Builder was a Singer/CofF and a ward of the Starks. It would explain his knowledge and long life.

I've thought this for a long time, but ultimately I think it's relatively unimportant. BtB being a singer would explain how he's around for so many centuries, and a singer being the founder of the Stark line might also make sense, on the other hand a white walker also being the founder of the Stark line might also make sense.

Truman used nukes twice on Japan, so we know there was plenty of uranium available to use it on Korea, Vietnam, various unsavory adventures in Central and South America, Iraq and Afghanistan, how come we didn't use it again?

Magic generally has a price. There is also strong suggestions that magic is a finite resource. Using the hammer of the water does not indicate that they could keep using magic like that, it may very well be that using the hammer of the waters meant they couldn't do any magic for a long while, because they'd depleted their armory to use it.

Resources are finite, and the Watch takes over the expenses of caring and feeding prisoners. It's a great way to save money, and it allows you to administer a death sentence (joining the night's watch) without suffering the cultural backlashes against the death sentence from your serfs. Also, no other Lords seem willing to carry out a death sentence other than Ned, Robb, and Joffrey, so sending away a prisoner is also a way to avoid having to oversee executions.

There's also the thought that the Night's Watch oath is an execution ceremony, that all members of the Night's Watch are supposed to say their vows at a heart tree, be sacrificed there, and become a Walker. Or maybe a wight, The night's watch wears black because it's part of the truce terms so that they are still visible to men. That's why the thirteen walkers in the end of S4E4 were all wearing Night's Watch Black.

Because Mance or another personage was living in the crypts at that specific time and Hodor knew it. By the time of ACOK, the crypts were again empty, and so Hodor was not afraid of them.

Or do you really believe that Mance came to winterfell to see a southern king? Nope, Mance came to winterfell because he wanted to pluck a winter rose (stark girl) like in the legends of old. Inconveniently for him, the time when Sansa would be old enough to seduce/steal and rape/"marry" corresponded with an immense amount of activity and attention at winterfell and Sansa and Arya both departing. With so much happening, he stuck around for a long time gathering information. Once he heard Ned died, he knew he had to get back beyond the wall fast because travel would be very difficult for a long time while the north was mobilizing. and with the north completely depleted of defense, he realized it was a golden opportunity to unite the wildlings and settle them south of the wall. :P

Or, if Mance wasn't trying to fulfill prophecies ala Rhaegar, another character may have been in the crypts, attempting to act as a conduit for Bloodraven to communicate with Bran. Probably Leaf.

I know you're trying to use the nukes used on Japan as an analogy for magic, but you do know that we only had just the two bombs during WWII? We had two, we deployed both, but it was a poker game after that and Japan wasn't willing to call our bluff.

It's an interesting thought about the Nights Watch being symbolically sacrificed. "Do this in remembrance of me" comes to mind....