It's official. Benedict Cumberbatch is Strange. The Doctor.

[red snow]

I think he's a fantastic actor, but his name always comes up as the perfect choice for any damn role in casting threads and discussions.

 

Which is strange as outside of "three lions" he always seems to play genius with some kind of emotional autism/asperger's. So while he's great at that it doesn't show much range. I still enjoy watching him in most things but I'd like to see Strange not be some emotionally blind genius magician. If he's going to do that, I'd almost rather he'd play Mr Fantastic. Guess that role will be up for a reboot soon.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think he's a fantastic actor, but his name always comes up as the perfect choice for any damn role in casting threads and discussions.

 

He's the white Idris Elba that way.

 

 

 

Which is strange as outside of "three lions" he always seems to play genius with some kind of emotional autism/asperger's. So while he's great at that it doesn't show much range. I still enjoy watching him in most things but I'd like to see Strange not be some emotionally blind genius magician. If he's going to do that, I'd almost rather he'd play Mr Fantastic. Guess that role will be up for a reboot soon.

 

He doesn't play a character with Asperger's in Parade's End (he's just too old fashioned for his own good), or in 12 Years a Slave (not a genius either), Thinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Atonement, etc

[red snow]

 

He's the white Idris Elba that way.

 

 

 

He doesn't play a character with Asperger's in Parade's End (he's just too old fashioned for his own good), or in 12 Years a Slave (not a genius either), Thinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Atonement, etc

 

I've only seen 12 years a slave out of that list but you're right he was different and good in that one so he's a good actor. So good that I forget the films where he doesn't play genius with asperger's :P

I still hope Dr Strange isn't a genius with Asperger's as I now know/remember that he can do other roles.

[CyanidePie]

From the Daredevil thread.

 
Sorry, but you've missed the point entirely.

Apparently. Mystical Asians shouldn't be played by Asians and/or mystical Asians shouldn't exist.

I'm just glad that Marvel at least had the good sense to hire a black guy to play African King T'Challa, as stereotypical as that may have been.

[Which Tyler]

I think he's a fantastic actor, but his name always comes up as the perfect choice for any damn role in casting threads and discussions.

I thought that was James Purefoy's job?

[Ser Rutherford the Brave]

A casting coup if you ask me. When one considers that Patrick Dempsey was lobbying HARD for the role, I'm delighted that in the end an acting powerhouse such as Cumberbatch landed the role of Stephen Strange. He single-handedly elevates the movie to an event film.

[mormont]

Apparently. Mystical Asians shouldn't be played by Asians and/or mystical Asians shouldn't exist.

 

That's what I mean. That, above, is not the point of this, below.
 

The point is that the whole Dr Strange origin story is a product of its age (like the Iron Fist origin story), and is based on outdated cultural stereotypes and hoary (see what I did there?) orientalist narratives. The Ancient One, as originally depicted, is nothing but a cliched mysterious Oriental wise man who exists mainly to grant the (white, Western, male) hero exotic wisdom and power. If you play out the narrative that way, it comes off badly: as, well, what it is - an old white guy's idea of a 'Tibetan mystic' from fifty years ago. And yeah, that's unavoidably somewhat racist. From ignorance rather than malice, of course, but there's no excuse for that ignorance fifty years later.

 

There are other and probably better ways to deal with that than whitewashing the role, of course, but that doesn't mean the 'racist' perception is without foundation.

[The BlackBear]

That's what I mean. That, above, is not the point of this, below.

 

[snip]

What do you suggest they do instead?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Surely there's a way to have an Asian man ( or woman) play an ancient Asian mystic without being exploitative or racist, like Pei Mei from Kill Bill.

[CyanidePie]

 
That's what I mean. That, above, is not the point of this, below.
 

Well I'm just going to chalk this up to me not being able to understand what the problem is. "Oriental mysticism" or whatever you want to call it exists because they created it and have depicted it that way in their own history and media. White people did not create Asian cultural and religious beliefs on magic or mysticism, they simply just inserted a white or black American man or woman into the role that normally would be a young Asian man or woman if it was written by someone from that culture.

I see nothing wrong with the trope of dropping someone into an unknown culture and having them learn wisdom from it, especially when it's something cool and fantastical like magic.

I'm never going to see the "racism" in that. Unless they have The Ancient One crashing his car all over the road because he can't see over the dash and/or because he's slurping noodles out of a giant wooden bowl while trying to steer.

[Myrddin]

We should have a movie where a Chinese man traveling in Britain encounters Merlin, who gives his wisdom and power.

 

But then, people would be up in arms how the white man had to impart his superior knowledge to the non-white.

 

Really, it's possible to spin either of these stories to fit a profile.

 

 

Personally, I love the casting of the Ancient One because of the person cast. Tilda Swindon will do a great job playing an immortal. 

[The King in Black]

Nobody has a problem with casting Tilda ; it's just the fact that the Ancient One being an old, asian scholar serves a purpose in the story. Strange's roots are very much in Asian mysticism, and that factor just can't be ignored. Anyway, i've never let casting bother me much. However, let's hope they don't waste another great performer in a forgettable role again. Also re. the whole 'racism' aspect,  the 'white' doctor's nemesis is black, and I don't know what they're doing about Wong, but if he indeed is cast as an Asain, then this whole thing goes down the drain.

And that's not even getting into the whole 'They did this to not offend China' thing.

[mormont]

What do you suggest they do instead?

 
I think what they have done is reasonably smart - if you're going to whitewash the casting, genderbending it deflects some of the criticism, and if (as seems to be the case) they've then cast a black man in a traditionally white role as well (Baron Mordo) that helps.(ETA - though the fact that it's the villain of the piece isn't ideal.)
 
There are other things that I'd do and that, for all I know, the film-makers are going to do some or all of them. First, I'd play down the 'Eastern wisdom' angle: the secrets that Strange learns don't necessarily have to be linked to any culture. In fact it makes more sense if they're not. The Sorcerer Supreme is a made-up thing, not actually stemming from Tibetan or any other Asian culture. And it's universal, not local. So make that clear, include some reference to other Sorcerer Supremes from different backgrounds. De-Orientalise the whole thing, move away from that 'ethnic people are mystical and spiritual' cliche. It's really nothing more than a convenient shorthand in the original origin story, in no real way important to it.
 
I'd ditch the 'Ancient One' title, too. He's the Sorcerer Supreme. Strange is his apprentice who inherits that title. No need for the 'Ancient One' title at all, really. It just emphasises the fact that the character is not really a person, just a convenient cliche.
 

Well I'm just going to chalk this up to me not being able to understand what the problem is.

 
That is the problem, yeah. But let me have another go here.
 

"Oriental mysticism" or whatever you want to call it exists because they created it and have depicted it that way in their own history and media.

 

Who's 'they'? Tibetans? Han Chinese? Filipinos? Uighurs? Hmong? Thais? 'Asians' are not a homogenous group with a homogenous culture, to start with.

 

It's not in dispute that all of these cultures depict mysticism. Every culture does that. Merlin. The Fates. Baba Yaga. Odin. But there's a lot more to each culture than that one thing. All of the above cultures have depictions of mysticism. None are dominated by it, to the point where it is actually the defining thing about their culture. It should not need to be said, but they all have a lot of other things depicted in their cultures too.

 

In any case, this is not about internal depiction. It's about that culture being depicted by and within another culture. And that's a completely different thing.

 

What we have here is one culture, Western culture, that has traditionally reduced a whole range of other rich and varied cultures down to one convenient shorthand ('Asians are mystic!') and then employed that in very unfortunate ways. Often, as in this case, it's just an easy way for a white Western writer to confer 'exotic' powers on a white Western hero, with no respect for or actual interest in the culture being depicted. That is quite insulting to the people whose culture is being hijacked as a lazy shortcut, particularly when (as in this case) there's nothing about the origin story that makes the cheap Orientalism necessary, or reflects the actual culture being depicted. It's a lazy cliche. Most people do not regard having a culture used in this way as a good thing.

[The King in Black]

 
I think what they have done is reasonably smart - if you're going to whitewash the casting, genderbending it deflects some of the criticism, and if (as seems to be the case) they've then cast a black man in a traditionally white role as well (Baron Mordo) that helps.(ETA - though the fact that it's the villain of the piece isn't ideal.)
 
There are other things that I'd do and that, for all I know, the film-makers are going to do some or all of them. First, I'd play down the 'Eastern wisdom' angle: the secrets that Strange learns don't necessarily have to be linked to any culture. In fact it makes more sense if they're not. The Sorcerer Supreme is a made-up thing, not actually stemming from Tibetan or any other Asian culture. And it's universal, not local. So make that clear, include some reference to other Sorcerer Supremes from different backgrounds. De-Orientalise the whole thing, move away from that 'ethnic people are mystical and spiritual' cliche. It's really nothing more than a convenient shorthand in the original origin story, in no real way important to it.
 
I'd ditch the 'Ancient One' title, too. He's the Sorcerer Supreme. Strange is his apprentice who inherits that title. No need for the 'Ancient One' title at all, really. It just emphasises the fact that the character is not really a person, just a convenient cliche.
 

 
That is the problem, yeah. But let me have another go here.
 

 

Who's 'they'? Tibetans? Han Chinese? Filipinos? Uighurs? Hmong? Thais? 'Asians' are not a homogenous group with a homogenous culture, to start with.

 

It's not in dispute that all of these cultures depict mysticism. Every culture does that. Merlin. The Fates. Baba Yaga. Odin. But there's a lot more to each culture than that one thing. All of the above cultures have depictions of mysticism. None are dominated by it, to the point where it is actually the defining thing about their culture. It should not need to be said, but they all have a lot of other things depicted in their cultures too.

 

In any case, this is not about internal depiction. It's about that culture being depicted by and within another culture. And that's a completely different thing.

 

What we have here is one culture, Western culture, that has traditionally reduced a whole range of other rich and varied cultures down to one convenient shorthand ('Asians are mystic!') and then employed that in very unfortunate ways. Often, as in this case, it's just an easy way for a white Western writer to confer 'exotic' powers on a white Western hero, with no respect for or actual interest in the culture being depicted. That is quite insulting to the people whose culture is being hijacked as a lazy shortcut, particularly when (as in this case) there's nothing about the origin story that makes the cheap Orientalism necessary, or reflects the actual culture being depicted. It's a lazy cliche. Most people do not regard having a culture used in this way as a good thing.

See, that's the problem : Doctor Strange was created for the sole reason so as to bring an Eastern mystic angle to Marvel Comics. To ditch that is akin to suggesting they do Constantine but ditch the whole occult thing and show him as being a one-Englishman Mystery Inc. instead.

And one way or another, at their heart all Marvel Comics have been about white man saving the day.

[mormont]

See, that's the problem : Doctor Strange was created for the sole reason so as to bring an Eastern mystic angle to Marvel Comics. To ditch that is akin to suggesting they do Constantine but ditch the whole occult thing and show him as being a one-Englishman Mystery Inc. instead.

 

Er, no.

 

Strange was created to bring a [i]mystic[/i] angle, yes. But the 'Eastern' bit was just, as I've said, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko reaching for an easy cliche that resonated with Americans 50 years ago. Little, if anything, about Strange is actually, genuinely, founded in Tibetan or other Asian cultures. You could remove the 'Tibetan' angle altogether and lose nothing important.

 

Your analogy is really poor, by the way. If you removed all of the magical elements from Strange, that would be the same as removing all the magical elements from Constantine. (Constantine, of course, is from a later age, hence the lack of the lazy Orientalism in his magical training.)

[The King in Black]

 

Er, no.

 

Strange was created to bring a mystic angle, yes. But the 'Eastern' bit was just, as I've said, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko reaching for an easy cliche that resonated with Americans 50 years ago. Little, if anything, about Strange is actually, genuinely, founded in Tibetan or other Asian cultures. You could remove the 'Tibetan' angle altogether and lose nothing important.

 

Your analogy is really poor, by the way. If you removed all of the magical elements from Strange, that would be the same as removing all the magical elements from Constantine. (Constantine, of course, is from a later age, hence the lack of the lazy Orientalism in his magical training.)

 

Dude, Marvel Comics is a place where Jack Kirby christened  magitech  with longest words he could find in the dictionary and pass it off as science fiction. Fantasy without psuedo-orientalism in Marvel is what Thor gave you; fantasy being passed off as science fiction. Strange's brand of magic is distinctly influenced by what can be called 'pulp orientalism' ; It is very much the West's idea of what Eastern mythology is all about, but it does clearly lacks Western occultism. So you are right in claiming that there's squat influence of Eastern or Asian mythology on Doctoer Strange ;  it's presence I would say is about as good as Science Fiction's in Fantastic Four :P

And I didn't say remove magic from Strange, but the fake-mysticism. It gives Doctor Strange his own brand and niche in the comics.

[CyanidePie]

We should have a movie where a Chinese man traveling in Britain encounters Merlin, who gives his wisdom and power.
 
But then, people would be up in arms how the white man had to impart his superior knowledge to the non-white.
 
Really, it's possible to spin either of these stories to fit a profile.
 
 
Personally, I love the casting of the Ancient One because of the person cast. Tilda Swindon will do a great job playing an immortal. 

Tilda Swinton would be phenomenal if you cast her as a phone booth, I just wish Asian actors could stop getting the shit end of the stick in Hollywood by constantly having white people either portray them, or getting cast in roles that are meant for them. Even when really cool roles come along for them like Ancient One it goes to a white woman.

[mormont]

 

Dude, Marvel Comics is a place where Jack Kirby christened  magitech  with longest words he could find in the dictionary and pass it off as science fiction. Fantasy without psuedo-orientalism in Marvel is what Thor gave you; fantasy being passed off as science fiction. Strange's brand of magic is distinctly influenced by what can be called 'pulp orientalism' ; It is very much the West's idea of what Eastern mythology is all about, but it does clearly lacks Western occultism. So you are right in claiming that there's squat influence of Eastern or Asian mythology on Doctoer Strange ;  it's presence I would say is about as good as Science Fiction's in Fantastic Four :P

And I didn't say remove magic from Strange, but the fake-mysticism. It gives Doctor Strange his own brand and niche in the comics.

 

I mean, this seems to be largely you agreeing with me that what we're talking about is nothing to do with actual Tibetan culture but just a coat of paint slapped on for colour by a couple of (perhaps forgivably) ignorant white boys in New York fifty years ago. Except for some reason, you seem to think this particular coat of paint is actually an important part of the structure. It's not.

 

Nothing important about Strange or the position of Sorcerer Supreme really has much to do with this faux-Orientalism. The Sorcerer Supreme minds the whole Earth dimension, not just bits of Asia. Strange fights guys like Dormammu and Mephisto, who is basically the Christian devil in an unconvincing wig. His powers owe more to Western conceptions of magic than Eastern ones.

 

Strange isn't the first decades-old character whose origin story needs a little cleaning up for reasons of outmoded attitudes to other cultures. It's definitely something they need to do, but it's not a fundamental change.

[Veltigar]

We should have a movie where a Chinese man traveling in Britain encounters Merlin, who gives his wisdom and power.

 

Isn't that basically 13th Warrior :p Swap Chinese with Arab and Merlin with Vikings and you're there :p

[The BlackBear]

Isn't that basically 13th Warrior :P Swap Chinese with Arab and Merlin with Vikings and you're there :P

That scene where he just grinds that straight sword down, until it suddenly becomes a curved scimitar. :lol: (also apparently arabs at that time used straight swords.)