How big was the Boltons' Army?

[Frey Pie]

Looks like the Boltons have more support then Robb ever did....Ramsay just inspires that type of following

[White Harbors Wrath]

Great military commanders usually do that.

[nyser1]

Based on the tv set's appearance I doubt all of those men would have fit inside the Walls to begin with (let alone horses).

However...

If you were expecting tv to make sense you clearly were not paying attention.

[ErasmusF]

Yeah that battle didn't make much sense, but it looked good for TV unless you were a military historian. Stannis's army would have had a tremendous advantage with halberds and the woods at their backs against mounted cavalry. The advantage of cavalry is being able to reposition one's troops fairly quickly as compared with men on foot, and cavalry was only really useful against long-weaponed infantry when armed with composite/recurve bows (i.e., to flank them and shoot at them from multiple angles). Hence the reason the Dothraki feared the Unsullied. If the Unsullied maintained a good defensive formation, riding horses into their lines is suicide.

Cavalry with swords is baloney. You have to dismount if you're facing men with armor.

Anywho, I thought they had said Roose had about 6,000 and Stannis had about the same until half his men deserted him. Which is why Roose's original strategy was to sit behind the walls.

[TheeeHippie]

Am I the only one that thought the Bolton calvary was largely his own troops that deserted his cause?

Since not a few episodes before, Roose's plan was for it to be a siege. Why would he say that if he had so much horses.

[Eltharion21]

In my humble estimation i would guess over 9000.

[lilix96]

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Winterfell

in the wikia they say roose and ramsay has 2000 cavalry

[Bluetiger]

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Winterfell

in the wikia they say roose and ramsay has 2000 cavalry

Wiki is made by fans, unless there is any source ( GoT, producers, GRRM), it's just fan speculation...

[NewJeffCT]

A few episodes back, Stannis said he had 6,000 men when he was in the tent with Davos before the blizzard. Then, the Stormcrows left (Damn you Daario!!), and that was a loss of 500 mounted men, per Stannis' quote in the episode. That left him 5,500. After the Shireen burning, half of them left, which leaves him with 2,750.

It seemed like prior to the burning, most of the losses were to the horses, but we should still figure there were also a few desertions and the sentries Stannis had hanged. So, maybe 2,600 to 2,700 in total before the battle.

Good move by Roose to attack, as each Bolton loss is one less mouth to feed through winter.

[NewJeffCT]

Am I the only one that thought the Bolton calvary was largely his own troops that deserted his cause?

Since not a few episodes before, Roose's plan was for it to be a siege. Why would he say that if he had so much horses.

I would bet at least some of them were Stannis deserters. I was thinking the same thing as well. Winterfell is the nearest place that has food and shelter for all those sellswords. Roose sends them out to attack with his own men and each death is one less mouth to feed in winter and one less person to pay.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Am I the only one that thought the Bolton calvary was largely his own troops that deserted his cause?

Since not a few episodes before, Roose's plan was for it to be a siege. Why would he say that if he had so much horses.

I agree that this is a good possibility and only explanation as to the size of Roose's Army that makes sense.

[NewJeffCT]

Yeah that battle didn't make much sense, but it looked good for TV unless you were a military historian. Stannis's army would have had a tremendous advantage with halberds and the woods at their backs against mounted cavalry. The advantage of cavalry is being able to reposition one's troops fairly quickly as compared with men on foot, and cavalry was only really useful against long-weaponed infantry when armed with composite/recurve bows (i.e., to flank them and shoot at them from multiple angles). Hence the reason the Dothraki feared the Unsullied. If the Unsullied maintained a good defensive formation, riding horses into their lines is suicide.

Cavalry with swords is baloney. You have to dismount if you're facing men with armor.

Anywho, I thought they had said Roose had about 6,000 and Stannis had about the same until half his men deserted him. Which is why Roose's original strategy was to sit behind the walls.

I'm pretty sure that Stannis said he had about 6,000 men, which was definitely more than what Roose had by what Littlefinger and even Roose himself said. However, 500 Stormcrows deserted first, and then half the remaining troops deserted, leaving him at 2,750. Overall, I'd say closer to 2,400 to 2,500 because I'm sure he lost some against the wildings and some on the march.

That said, it seems like the so-called "great" generals of Westeros were not really all that great on the battlefield. Didn't Tywin get caught with his pants down when Robb duped him and captured Jaime? Stannis lost on the Blackwater and again at Winterfell. Nice win at the wall but that was mostly due to surprise, I'd say.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Based on the tv set's appearance I doubt all of those men would have fit inside the Walls to begin with (let alone horses).

However...

If you were expecting tv to make sense you clearly were not paying attention.

Well, Roose apparently has a garrison of over 4,000 troops at Winterfell in the books. Almost 1,000 of which are mounted. It also seems like they are all inside Winterfell since Mors Umber is able to dig those traps outside of the Winterfell gates without being spotted. So it's really not far off from the books here.

[NewJeffCT]

Well, Roose apparently has a garrison of over 4,000 troops at Winterfell in the books. Almost 1,000 of which are mounted. It also seems like they are all inside Winterfell since Mors Umber is able to dig those traps outside of the Winterfell gates without being spotted. So it's really not far off from the books here.

4,000 sounds about right to my sometimes faulty memory. So, if my numbers for Team Stannis were correct above, the Botlons would have had an almost 2:1 advantage. If any of the deserting sellsword cavalry went over to the Boltons, it would have been even greater advantage. Plus, they had surprise as well. So, hungry enemies, surprise, cavalry and a numbers advantage of possibly over 2:1, and it spells a wipeout.

[TheCasualObserver]

I'm pretty sure that Stannis said he had about 6,000 men, which was definitely more than what Roose had by what Littlefinger and even Roose himself said. However, 500 Stormcrows deserted first, and then half the remaining troops deserted, leaving him at 2,750. Overall, I'd say closer to 2,400 to 2,500 because I'm sure he lost some against the wildings and some on the march.

That said, it seems like the so-called "great" generals of Westeros were not really all that great on the battlefield. Didn't Tywin get caught with his pants down when Robb duped him and captured Jaime? Stannis lost on the Blackwater and again at Winterfell. Nice win at the wall but that was mostly due to surprise, I'd say.

Stannis was totally incompetent on this campaign. Either the people who approved of his prowess (Varys, Tyrion, LF, Tywin) were making it up or Stannis had a head injury prior to leaving Castle Black.

Nobody competent allows 20 men to completey destroy their supplies. Nobody competent burns their child before they've even eaten the last of the horses. Nobody competent would engage in human sacrifice before checking if any of his men would object to it or find it morally wrong. Nobody competent allows half their army to slip off into the night. Nobody competent marches an infantry army into open hostile terrain without using scouting first, out of formation and without a sensible plan of attack. The Bolton army wasn't what stopped the "siege" Stannis was planning; he had no supplies and no capacity to starve Winterfell out.

A head injury is the only thing which explains these inadequacies. Or maybe D and D just despise Stannis.

[Xarkar]

I was totally WTF about the entire situation. First Stannis loses his cavalry by desertion, finds his wife having commited suicide and then proceeds to march straight on towards "Death or glory". OK, I could ALMOST accept that as credible, but nothing - NOTHING - in the preceeding parts of the story has even remotely indicated that the Boltons would be able to field thousands of cavalry troops - let alone that they were gathered at Winterfell to mount an attack like the one we saw. Remember that they were prepairing for a siege, and then you don't garrison the place to the brink of overcrowding with men and horses that would need to be both accomodated and fed throughout the expected hard weather.

So seriously, where did the troops come from? Was it Stannis' own deserted cavalry that turned against him, or do the screen writers simply expect the viewers to drink whatever Kool Aid is put on the table in front of them...?

That is really the only thing that makes sense to me.

I dont think it would take much to bribe starving, freezing mercenaries to switch sides.

At the same point I thought most of his mounted men were Barathean Banner men... which I assume would be hard to convince to turncloak.

Then again he just burnt his daughter.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

At the same point I thought most of his mounted men were Barathean Banner men... which I assume would be hard to convince to turncloak.

The amount of troops he had left before the battle was about 1300, which is actually the same amount of Stormlander/Crownlander men he has in the books, and given the military uniforms of the show, I'd say his own bannermen stuck wih him to the end. Any turncloaks were mercaneries from Essos.

[robasp2]

A head injury is the only thing which explains these inadequacies. Or maybe D and D just despise Stannis.

He was thouroughly brainwashed.

He thought he was invincible after burning shireen because Mel saw the Bolton banners burning. She saw herself walking in winterfell.

He interpreted it as he will win no matter what.

Best battle commander is no use after he lost his mind. A good battle commander would wait. He didnt wait as Daavos suggested did he?

So...

[Lady Blackmont]

Keep in mind that estimates suggest that the north has a population of about 3.5 Million. Under the assumption of 1-100 in army to pop ratio, the north can field an army 35,000 strong. Only 17,000 went south with Robb. We know the Dustins and Ryswells held back, and white harbor probably has a lot of reserves. Roose also seems like the type to hold back a large army. We also know that the Umbers were creating a new army at Long Lake. The mountain clans certainly don't seem to have sent many men, and the Crannogs certainly did not.

The only northern houses who seem to be "done" in terms of manpower are the Glovers, Tallharts, Starks, Hornwoods, and Cerwyns. And this is mostly because they have lost their lords or have been occupied by the Ironborn.

The point I am trying to make is that the North is far from exhausted, and they have a good number of reserves.

Remember, it is a northern tradition to throw a large number of troops into battle right before winter, with the intention of removing mouths to feed. Only 10,000 or so died/were captured in the South, and some of these men are probably trickling back home. I find it hard to believe that Tarly executed all prisoners at Duskendale, for instance.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

^19,500 marched down with Robb. Also, the Northern manpower should be around 45,000. 35,000 is too small for a region considered be around the same strength as the Vale, Riverlands, and Westerlands.