How do you centralize the 7 kingdoms

[Myself656]

4 hours ago, Protagoras said:

I am more and more starting to feel that the response to the OP is "We don´t want to centralize", "Centralization is impossible" etc.

Maybe I completely misunderstand you and other posters, but it seems to me that people in this thread are not trying to actually centralize or give suggestions how to centralize but rather motivate why centralizing is impossible, which runs counter to the originial OP.

There are problems, cultural ones, that you will run into if you try to start the process. Is that really a good reason not to make the attempt?

However, I will not accuse people to argue in bad faith so I think its best I leave this discussion.

Okay, if you seriously wanna centralize the government of landmass the size of South America with at least seven distinct cultural groups with differing values and mores into a top-down managed mono-culture then there's only ONE way to do it that won't lead to endless chaos and rebellions.

Genocide six of the seven cultural groups and let the one remaining group settle the now unoccupied regions.

Anything else and you will forever face rebellions by whichever cultural group is feeling oppressed by the actions of the current one-size-fits-all regime.

No effort to centralize government across more than a small regional area has ever lasted more than a few hundred years before reaching its peak and collapsing. Most have had to rely upon continual expansion of territory and the spoils gained from that conquest to sustain the support of the centralized government.

Human beings simply do NOT organize with any degree of efficiency beyond a level where they can identify with whoever is in charge. The notion that a massive centrally organized and managed government can successfully do anything other than collapse into cronyism and rampant corruption is one of the stupidest ideas to have ever come out of the late-19th/early-20th century.

Asking for means of successful centralizing a government is like asking for means to successfully building a faster-than-light engine... because neither has ever actually been done outside of speculative fiction.

Heck, the FTL drive is at least theoretically possible in that we know what we'd need to theoretically make one work (even if those things are basically impossible to acquire) whereas every past theory on how to centrally organize vast numbers of humanity have only ever led to death, misery and ruin for whatever group attempts it.

[Arrow of the Morning]

For a king to centralize the power in Westeros he need the following things:

- Create a Constitution that give more power to the king and, in consequence, take away some power and privileges from the lords.

- Have a powerful royal army directly controlled by the king, that can suppress any rebellion from the lords that would not be happy with the changes.

- Create a bureaucratic system to control the administration.  

[Jaak]

On 27.1.2016 at 5:34 PM, TimJames said:

 Even if Bread and Circuses don't work, I'll supplement them with a secret police that will bump off anyone who looks like a rabble-rouser. 

That was tried. And has not failed in any obvious way.

How many eyes does Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes and one.

How many of these 1000 eyes belong to his secret agents? Raven´s Teeth were a public standing army. And Bloodraven deployed 300 of them to Whitewalls. Plus any left deployed elsewhere. Leaves less than 200 agents.

 

[Ikarian]

If Joffrey ever had good idea, it was about army. As king, without dragons, you will probably not be able to disband levies (or you will end very bad), but you can build own, Crownland army, composed by Essos mercenaries, recruited and trained crownlanders troops and with massive support from royal treasure. You will be able to centralize Seven Kingdoms when you will have army equivalent of all remaining armies of Westeros together.

Second, stop trust lords and feudals and invite essosi merchants, traders, adventurers, sellswords and create new class with great economic power, that will support you against most richest lords (Lannisters, Tyrells).

Third, in exchange for lower taxes or other advantages, force small lords to disband their levies and send recruits for Royal Army.

Fourth, all new cities and castles will have appoint castelans and rulers, without hereditary system. They will be loyal only to you and no one other. In my country, Czech lands, during reign of Wenceslau the Saint, Czech lands were decentralized and torn apart by local lords and their armed groups. When Boleslau, Wenceslau brother, murdered him and took the throne (yeaaah, very martin-like ), he gave order to kill all de facto independent lords, disband or kill their armed groups and formed new castle system with appointed rulers, loyal to him as supreme ruler of Bohemia.

You want centralized Seven Kingdoms? You need strong Royal Army, strong Royal Fleet and merchant fleet and strong merchant class.

[TimJames]

On 1/29/2016 at 5:52 AM, Ruhail said:

I think Westeros needs to be broken back up into 7 sovereign nations, it lasted for thousands of years this way and seemed alot easier for each king and their subjects to govern themselves.

Personally, I disagree with the idea of Self-Determinism.

Having a unique culture does not give a group of people the right to their own state, or to "choose their own path". Humanity must have one path if it is to survive.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/93498-the-earth-should-not-be-cut-up-into-hundreds-of

[StarkofWinterfell]

3 hours ago, TimJames said:

Personally, I disagree with the idea of Self-Determinism.

Having a unique culture does not give a group of people the right to their own state, or to "choose their own path". Humanity must have one path if it is to survive.

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/93498-the-earth-should-not-be-cut-up-into-hundreds-of

A flawed concept.

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 12/9/2015 at 4:24 PM, RobOsevens said:

With fire and blood

obviously

1. Dragons
2. Build roads like the Valyrians did
3. Representatives.  Each of the Great Houses will have a representative on the Small Council.  In turn, each Great House will have the Queen's royal representatives stationed at each of their castles.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Dragons, in absence of dragons, something to unify everyone against a common enemy. Perhaps you could invade Essos every once in awhile and really demonize them a lot. Also, having strong ties with all great houses would go along way. Putting them on your small council, getting marriages with as many as you could, having your children be raised with their children, having their children as your squires or cupbearers. All of these things will help solidify ties. 

[lancerman]

Simple really. You have each great House donate an ambassador to be on the small council. You also mandate that the heirs of every great House squire in the capitol for atleast 5 years. Whenever an heir is sent they are escorted with 100 troops from the House who will be donated to the royal army.

[Lion of the West]

Slowly let the tentacles of royal authority seep into the various parts of society and undermine the noble's authority. Slowly, slowly build a royal administration and gather up castles from traitors and criminals to the crown's lands and give them only as necessary to the members of the royal family and raise new bannermen etc.

But most importantly, I'd ensure that my plan would be continued by my heir. Even if I ruled as long as the Old King there's no way in hell I'll be alive to see the end of it. Its a work that will go on across generations and potentially hundreds of years and be carried on by many different rulers.

That's how I'd do it.

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Slowly let the tentacles of royal authority seep into the various parts of society and undermine the noble's authority. Slowly, slowly build a royal administration and gather up castles from traitors and criminals to the crown's lands and give them only as necessary to the members of the royal family and raise new bannermen etc.

But most importantly, I'd ensure that my plan would be continued by my heir. Even if I ruled as long as the Old King there's no way in hell I'll be alive to see the end of it. Its a work that will go on across generations and potentially hundreds of years and be carried on by many different rulers.

That's how I'd do it.

Good post. The problem with most suggestions is that they basically rely on the nobles (particularly Great Houses) just sitting back and allowing it. Be too forward, and you'll be pushed back. Look at poor Egg; he couldn't get most of his reforms through, and the ones he did were undone by his successors.

[Veltigar]

You find a donkey that shits money, because that's what you are going to need in spades.

We actually have gotten a lot of pointers from the more powerful Targaryen Kings about how to further the centralization of the Realm. If money isn't an issue, just expand on that:

1) Improve mobility. Like Jaeherys I, a good monarch should invest in infrastructure. The old infrastructure needs to be restored to mint condition, while additional canals, roads, bridges, ports, etc. all need to be built. At the same time, tarrifs and tolls need to be kept to a minimum and people need to know that they have gotten the royals to thank for this.

2) Increase soft power. Every individual in Westeros should dream of visiting the capital at least once. A succesful monarch hellbent on centralizing the place should throw the most lavish balls, organize the greatest tournaments and invest heavily in the arts. The reign of Viserys I and Jaeherys I are good examples of the first two and we know that Rhaenys had a lot of singers and artists on her pay roll. This type of splendor would make the nobles of Westeros strive to identify themselves with the monarchy as best as possible, which would make them more plieable and susceptible to royal power.

3) Create a royal army and bring the royal navy back. This is pretty self-explanatory I think. It would bring military men from all over the Seven Kingdoms to the King's service and it would give the monarchy more punitive power.

4) Further royal presence. Like Aegon I or Jaeherys I, it is important to travel around the realm. People everywhere should feel like the royals are a benevolent presence in their lives. That means members of the dynasty need to travel, but it also means that their institutions need to do so as well. Knights from the royal army should partake in tourneys all over the land, people should bring their precious metals to the royal mint to be reforged, in trade they should come across custom officials from the central authority, laws should all be the same across the Realm and preferably be doled out by royal judges and of course there are the aformentioned infrastructure projects. The monarch should sponser bridges, septs and the works all across the land.

5) Create a bank. As we can see from the Lannisters and the IBB, the lending of money is a great way of building up your own fortune and power. A central bank would therefore be quite a good idea.

6) Stimulate marriages between the various kingdoms. Similar to how Rhaenys did it, there should be a real drive in making matches between the various kingdoms. That would loosen the grip of the Lord-Paramounts over their nobles and it would hopefully lead to greater unity. Bonus points if you can turn the capital into a sort of matchmaking centrum (if all young men and women from prestigious houses spent time in the capital to enjoy the feasts, tourneys and other attractions that shouldn't be that great of an undertaking). 

7) Found more towns and cities (although this is a double edged sword). I think the Riverlands needs a city, preferably on the location of Harrenhal. That would hopefully help to secure the Riverlands.

etc.

All of these require absolutely massive amounts of money though. So the single most powerful weapon to bring Westeros together is enforcing a better way of taxation. However, people don't like to be taxed. So, good luck with centralizing Westeros. All of the things I described above, to do that to a degree that you'd get a great amount of change, that's going to take a long time, due to a lack of money. Unless you own a donkey that actually does shit money. 

[OldGimletEye]

39 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

<snip>

Agree before any of this would actually get done, you would need to increase the tax capacity of Westeros. How to do that? I don't know. Read North & Weingast, I suppose.

[OldGimletEye]

9 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

1. Dragons
2. Representatives.  Each of the Great Houses will have a representative on the Small Council.  In turn, each Great House will have the Queen's royal representatives stationed at each of their castles.

 I'm a bit skeptical both of these things are truly compatible.

I think monarchs like to stay in power and to share as little political power as possible. Having 1 makes it easier to do both. 

Reading the state development literature, one, I think, doesn't get the impression that monarchs shared political power, with representative bodies, out of their democracy loving little ol' hearts, but because they often had to.

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Reading the state development literature, one, I think, doesn't get the impression that monarchs shared political power, with representative bodies, out of their democracy loving little ol' hearts, but because they often had to.

Parliaments came about because the nobility demanded it, in exchange for depositing extra funds into the royal treasury. If a ruler had no need of money, he wouldn't bother getting parliament together. 

Agree before any of this would actually get done, you would need to increase the tax capacity of Westeros. How to do that? I don't know. Read North & Weingast, I suppose.

I think my donkey-shitting-money plan wasn't that bad  Especially if they managed to breed with it  

EDIT: Breeding more donkeys that is, not weird Targaryen/donkey hybrids.

[OldGimletEye]

18 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

I think my donkey-shitting-money plan wasn't that bad  Especially if they managed to breed with it  

EDIT: Breeding more donkeys that is, not weird Targaryen/donkey hybrids.

Well even Twyin Lannister doesn't shit gold, as we found out. 

But, at least, you were on the right track, even if the magic shitting donkey isn't to be found. The development of state tax capacity and public finance or the finding of money shitting donkeys is crucial to any centralization plan. Without it, any centralization plan just isn't going to be possible. Or it won't get very far.

[Veltigar]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well even Twyin Lannister doesn't shit gold, as we found out. 

Perhaps he was just having a bad day?  After all, golden drops are quite rare in real life as well  

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, at least, you were on the right track, even if the magic shitting donkey isn't to be found. The development of state tax capacity and public finance or the finding of money shitting donkeys is crucial to any centralization plan. Without it, any centralization plan just isn't going to be possible.

A shame really, there are a lot of beautiful pipe dreams in this thread. 

[YOVMO]

On December 9, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Tarellen said:

How do you make westeros centralized as posible for a medival kingdom? Personally I would build up my land holdings till I'm the richest man in the kingdom.

Dragons. 

Well, that isn't the whole story. Dragons and inertia. 

Aegon I conquered with dragons. The Field of Fire and Harrenhall were what made others bend the knee. And as long as the dragons lived the targ dynasty was able to maintain. By the time the dragons had died out many generations had come and gone so that no one alive even had a grandfather who had a grandfather who remembered a time when the Targs were not kings. 

As long as the realm was peaceful and prosperous (or at least not too burning-lords-in-suits-of-armor-y) the idea of overthrowing a ruling family that had been kinds for hundreds of years wouldn't have been seen as sensible or even desirable.

So the Dragons are how you unite the 7 kingdoms and then marriages, peace and inertia keep them together.

[Lord Giggles]

If I acceded to the throne and wished to centralise the 7 Kingdoms, first thing I'd do is set up an institution like Parliament, with a House of Lords and House of Commons. The task of these two institutions would be to give the nobility a means of voicing their grievances with the crown outside of just mustering their men and marching on KL, thus creating greater stability within the realm. I'd also use these two assemblies as tax raising institutions(anytime I'm in need of money, go to them and request to raise a tax so that I don't need to rely on moneylenders to as great a degree). 

Then advance forwards, not to a standing army immediately, but instead to a contract system whereby the soldiers raised by me fight for money rather than out of feudal obligation and there's a direct contract between me and them rather than going through the medium of the High Lords. I'd also expand my royal riding retinue to several hundred knights strong. Using this new system I'd launch a campaign into the Stepstones and once I'd conquered them establish new "marcher" lords there, with all the rights that implies and begin demonizing Essos, possibly even launch an invasion onto the mainland of Essos, ostensibly to eliminate the Targaryen threat once and for, actually to unite the 7 Kingdoms behind me and give the young nobles a common cause. 

Next step is to establish a common law with permanent courts at Winterfell, Lannisport, Oldtown, Sunspear, Storms End, Kings Landing, Riverunn and Gulltown and then travelling courts who travell across the country resolving legal disputes so that the King doesn't need to be present for them to be resolved. 

Those are the first steps I'd take

[Lion of the West]

20 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Good post. The problem with most suggestions is that they basically rely on the nobles (particularly Great Houses) just sitting back and allowing it. Be too forward, and you'll be pushed back. Look at poor Egg; he couldn't get most of his reforms through, and the ones he did were undone by his successors.

Thanks! I remember a thread like this back in the day with all manner of wild fantasies about riding over the nobility and doing feudalism-to-liberal-democracy-in-10-days, and then there was one guy who had actually held a position of importance in real life and attempted to reform the system only to see everything blow up in his face and things revert to how it was before him after he left the position, if I recall correctly. From that experience he provided a far more cautious idea of what to change and to mostly let things be as they were.