The Pact of Ice and Fire

[Ygritte.]

There is mention of a pact between the Targaryens and Starks regarding a royal princess marrying into the Stark family (a promise that was never followed through).

"Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III ... even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon."

Seeing as the main series is called 'A Song of Ice and Fire', is this foreshadowing that such a pact will be fulfilled (finally).  Thus uniting the two old families in a very 'War of the Roses' style of ending.

e.g. Sansa and Aegon - more bittersweet I guess bc they are not extremely high profile characters and the very built-up Dany doesn't fulfil her ambitions // Jon and Daenerys  (Ice (+fire?) and Fire)

(not really shocking, but I decided to hide it anyway because I've never used the spoiler addition before )   

OR (this was my first thought)  Jon is the symbolism of this union, R+L=J etc and is a core protagonist, cute naww.

[Guest]

Yes. That is clearly a theory. It could be that Jon Snow is already a Stark-Targ offspring. Others see Dany and Jon hooking up at some point. There are threads on both these theories.

[RumHam]

I tend to think it's just a bit more foreshadowing of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But in case you're unaware there was more on this that didn't make it into the book:

"For space reasons, details around the pact -- particularly certain scurrilous details from one Mushroom, involving Prince Jacaerys allegedly falling in love with and secretly marrying Lord Cregan’s bastard half-sister -- had to be cut. However, the core of it is as it says in the book: Cregan agreed to support Rhaenyra for the promise of a Targaryen bride."

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2zd5yf/spoilers_all_amaa_w_elio_linda_of_westerosorg/

[The Prince of Magpies]

I'm very curious about Cregan's marriage to Aly Blackwood, which apparently pacified his wroth at arriving to find the war over and Aegon II poisoned. Aly had presumably proved herself to be a formidable commander after her actions at the Battle of the Kingsroad, which may have won Cregan's respect (and his heart?). But given that the deaths of Jace and Luke freed up Baela and Rhaena, I'm surprised Cregan didn't push his claim to marry one of Daemon's daughters, who, as half-sisters of the new king would be about as attractive a prospect (politically) as any Targaryen princess.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Prince of Magpies said:

I'm very curious about Cregan's marriage to Aly Blackwood, which apparently pacified his wroth at arriving to find the war over and Aegon II poisoned. Aly had presumably proved herself to be a formidable commander after her actions at the Battle of the Kingsroad, which may have won Cregan's respect (and his heart?). But given that the deaths of Jace and Luke freed up Baela and Rhaena, I'm surprised Cregan didn't push his claim to marry one of Daemon's daughters, who, as half-sisters of the new king would be about as attractive a prospect (politically) as any Targaryen princess.

Yeah, that suggests that Cregan actually wanted Black Aly as his new wife, and preferred her to either Baela or Rhaena Targaryen. After all, Daemon's daughters were both with him and Aly in KL when the women schemed to save Corlys Velaryon's life and titles. It really looks as if Cregan Stark fell in love with Alysanne Blackwood, and subsequently spurned a Targaryen bride to be with her.

While it is theoretically possible that Rhaena was already married to Corwyn Corbray in 131 AC, Baela clearly only married Alyn Velaryon after the death of Aegon II, so she would have been free to marry Cregan Stark at this point.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that suggests that Cregan actually wanted Black Aly as his new wife, and preferred her to either Baela or Rhaena Targaryen. After all, Daemon's daughters were both with him and Aly in KL when the women schemed to save Corlys Velaryon's life and titles. It really looks as if Cregan Stark fell in love with Alysanne Blackwood, and subsequently spurned a Targaryen bride to be with her.

While it is theoretically possible that Rhaena was already married to Corwyn Corbray in 131 AC, Baela clearly only married Alyn Velaryon after the death of Aegon II, so she would have been free to marry Cregan Stark at this point.

But Baela (probably) was quite heavily scarred at this point which would dissuade some potential suitors, and may account for Cregan's lack of interest.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But Baela (probably) was quite heavily scarred at this point which would dissuade some potential suitors, and may account for Cregan's lack of interest.

We don't know anything about that, really. We know Baela was 'burned and battered' but that really can mean anything or nothing. Unlike Aegon II who shattered his legs in the fall, she was able to loose her saddle chains and crawl away from the dragons. That doesn't suggests she was burned to a very high degree or suffered potentially fatal burn wounds - such wounds cause a lot of pain, and a person suffering such a pain would most likely not be in concentrated/aware enough to free herself of the dragons and crawl out of their reach.

But even if she suffered some burns in the face: The looks of a bride do not really figure into a marriage contract all that much. There was a deal between Cregan Stark and Jacaerys/Rhaenyra, and Aegon III would now have to deliver. Granted, Cregan could back out of the deal - after all, he was Hand of the King and in complete control of the city and the court by the time this was decided - but it would have been very bad form, not to mention potentially dangerous. Aegon III and his half-sisters might remember how Lord Stark had treated them, after all.

[Aemond's Eye]

I didn't realise until recently that GRRM had at one point given consideration to Jacaerys falling in love with a bastard half-sister of Cregan, and marrying her whilst in Winterfell. It's made me wonder if George's original plan for the Pact was just that - a marriage alliance with a Stark Queen, of sorts.

Unless he'd considered Jacaerys marrying her in addition to it.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, It'sAlwaysWinterInScotland said:

I didn't realise until recently that GRRM had at one point given consideration to Jacaerys falling in love with a bastard half-sister of Cregan, and marrying her whilst in Winterfell. It's made me wonder if George's original plan for the Pact was just that - a marriage alliance with a Stark Queen, of sorts.

Unless he'd considered Jacaerys marrying her in addition to it.

Well, we only have Ran's description of this rumor spread by Mushroom, but what we do know doesn't make it much likely that there was much truth to that. Perhaps Cregan's half-sister and Jace had an affair? But a legally-binding marriage would have had repercussions of some sort. Jace would have been punished/cut out of the succession by his royal mother, Corlys Velaryon would have been furious that Jace had broken his betrothal to his cousin Baela, and it would be very unlikely that the reconciliation between Rhaenyra and Corlys arranged by Jace would have happened the way it did.

But even if there is any truth to that, the official part of the story of the Pact of Ice and Fire is that the Starks get a Targaryen bride. Which means that the Jace match would just have been the ice on the cake - or rather Jace falling in love with Cregan's sister and marrying her because he could.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

Hmm. A spurned bride and a broken marriage promise with the Starks involved. Either déjà vu or I've read something like this before. Makes me wonder why we haven't heard of a "Whatever-colour-Balerion's-flames-are Wedding". 

[RumHam]

17 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Hmm. A spurned bride and a broken marriage promise with the Starks involved. Either déjà vu or I've read something like this before. Makes me wonder why we haven't heard of a "Whatever-colour-Balerion's-flames-are Wedding". 

Well...we have something close. Balerion's flames were black, and Maegor took his "Black Brides." I'm sure they were called that because they were recently widowed, not because of the color of Balerion's flames. But still you'd have to think the threat of death, possibly by being eaten by Balerion, was hanging over their heads if they dared object. 

[Scorpion92]

For me, it foreshadows Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains and Conqueror of Southern Westeros, marrying Jon Stark, King of Winter and ruler of the North (True North as well as the Wall will collapse) which will finally seal the pact promised so many years ago, uniting "ice" and "fire" for eternity and bringing the balance to the realm.

And that tidbit about GRRM wanting to add Prince Jacaerys falling in love with bastard Stark girl I think only proves my point. Just reverse genders and it just screams Dany and Jon.

Of course, it is just general outline, it will not be your typical happy ending. I think after this marriage Dany will not be long for this world as she will die in childbirth, which will put Arya and Sansa as co-ruling duo queens helping Jon to rule. It will mark a new era for new royal dynasty of House Stark and mirror Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys but without Starkcest.

[purple-eyes]

37 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

For me, it foreshadows Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains and Conqueror of Southern Westeros, marrying Jon Stark, King of Winter and ruler of the North (True North as well as the Wall will collapse) which will finally seal the pact promised so many years ago, uniting "ice" and "fire" for eternity and bringing the balance to the realm.

And that tidbit about GRRM wanting to add Prince Jacaerys falling in love with bastard Stark girl I think only proves my point. Just reverse genders and it just screams Dany and Jon.

Of course, it is just general outline, it will not be your typical happy ending. I think after this marriage Dany will not be long for this world as she will die in childbirth, which will put Arya and Sansa as co-ruling duo queens helping Jon to rule. It will mark a new era for new royal dynasty of House Stark and mirror Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys but without Starkcest.

i thought in this case, dany is like rhaenys, who died earlier, and then Jon and Arya (visenya) ruled together but the heir is son of Dany.

[DarkSister1001]

Welcome!

Could this mean more than we know?  It's essentially a broken betrothal and that usually leads to conflict. 

[dornishdame]

On 2/4/2016 at 1:05 AM, Scorpion92 said:

For me, it foreshadows Daenerys Targaryen, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains and Conqueror of Southern Westeros, marrying Jon Stark, King of Winter and ruler of the North (True North as well as the Wall will collapse) which will finally seal the pact promised so many years ago, uniting "ice" and "fire" for eternity and bringing the balance to the realm.

And that tidbit about GRRM wanting to add Prince Jacaerys falling in love with bastard Stark girl I think only proves my point. Just reverse genders and it just screams Dany and Jon.

Of course, it is just general outline, it will not be your typical happy ending. I think after this marriage Dany will not be long for this world as she will die in childbirth, which will put Arya and Sansa as co-ruling duo queens helping Jon to rule. It will mark a new era for new royal dynasty of House Stark and mirror Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys but without Starkcest.

Even without Daenerys dying in childbirth, I think that you could have her and Jon together and have it be a bittersweet ending. Jon has only ever wanted to be a worthy son of Ned's, and is now forced south because he isn't Ned's son. And on top of it, he is marrying a stranger while remembering Ygritte, and having to live in the political world he has no interest in. Daenerys, on the other hand, would finally be on the Iron Throne, but could easily end up pining for anonymity and the house with the red door. And while she would be married to Jon, that does not necessarily mean it would be a mutually loving marriage. Just one of political necessity - which is to a certain extent how the Wars of the Roses ended, with the marriage of Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor. 

[Scorpion92]

27 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

Even without Daenerys dying in childbirth, I think that you could have her and Jon together and have it be a bittersweet ending. Jon has only ever wanted to be a worthy son of Ned's, and is now forced south because he isn't Ned's son. And on top of it, he is marrying a stranger while remembering Ygritte, and having to live in the political world he has no interest in. Daenerys, on the other hand, would finally be on the Iron Throne, but could easily end up pining for anonymity and the house with the red door. And while she would be married to Jon, that does not necessarily mean it would be a mutually loving marriage. Just one of political necessity - which is to a certain extent how the Wars of the Roses ended, with the marriage of Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor. 

Well, it could certainly play out the way you described, but I don't buy it. Simply because there are too many textual foreshadowings for Jon and Dany having romantic relationship, and for the fact that Dany, in her heart, craves and wants a family, "a house with red door and lemon tree", a home, so to speak.

On exterior she is this tough, strong and ruthless "Fire and Blood" khaleesi, Breaker of Chains and all that, but the happiest she felt was when she was married to Khal Drogo. I think the only true soulmate of Dany is someone who can match her both in strength and power (or maybe even overwhelm her) and stature. She loves and lusts for badboys like Daario, but she will also mature as well and understand that these kinds of men are not what she wants and needs. She needs someone at her side to help her rule together, it is very tough and lonely at the top.

The same is true for Jon. There is a text in the books where he thinks about having a son of his own, but quickly dismisses it because he is a brother of Night's Watch now. He also likes independent, attractive, strong women who are very capable and at some instances even more qualified than men like Ygritte or Val. His personality is very close in that regard to his father: he is a loner by nature and does not like to open up, but he has this unspoken charisma that gravitates people to him (and sometimes pushes away others). He needs some woman like Ygritte to light a fire under his ass and give some color to his gloomy life, especially after resurrection where I expect him to be more cold and ruthless like Stark Kings of old.

The way I picture their first meeting, I think they will start out as enemies, because they will both be leaders and imagine the other as some kind of danger to their own people, but once they get over it (and once Jon proves he is Rhaegar's son), they will realize they are exactly what they need for each other: for Dany, it will be someone who is as strong or stronger than her (claim to throne, armies, King of Winter title because White Walkers and undead are at his command); has a certain cold and ruthless streak that attracts Dany in men like with Drogo and Daario, especially towards enemies and people disobeying him; his secretive and enigmatic persona which Dany might also find attractive and she might have to light "a fire to love" like in her Undrying prophecy; also being Rhaegar's kid means she found her only living family and the place of belonging. 

For Jon, it will be her exotic looks, because he would have never seen a girl like her before (she is considered "the most beautiful woman in the world" going by books); she is as strong, independent and ruthless as Mother of Dragons as him, which will not scare him away but instead attract him, because that is what he likes in his women in the first place - she will conquer Southern Westeros and bend it to her will and then DARE to take his kingdom of the North away from him - a definite cause for some big boner haha; as he gets to know her, he will realize that she was an outsider whole her life and earned and learned everything the hard way, just like him.

I mean, I can bring many many points regarding these two, but I do not agree with people who say that they are not compatible character-wise - they are built throughout the books for crucial leadership positions on each side of "ice" and "fire", which is not an easy burden I must say. In reality, these two are the ONLY ones who can understand inner world of each other because their paths have so many parallels. 

But as you said, the ending GOTTA be bittersweet, so either it is going to be Jon-Dany marriage where both are unhappy and do it for political reason (which I clearly demonstrated I do not believe to be the case), or both fall in love with each other, and then one of them is taken away from the other. Given that Jon already died in the story and will get resurrected and also the prophecy of Dany reuniting with Khal Drogo once her womb quickens, I believe their marriage will be a short one because Dany will die giving a birth to Jon's son, who he will name Eddard Stark (Ned was practically ruling the realm in the first book in Robert's absence like a true just king, it is a fitting end to end the series to name Jon's heir in his honor).

So yeah, these are my thoughts on the matter.

[chrisdaw]

Arya + whoever Tyrion's heir is, probably Robert Arryn.

[norwaywolf123]

On 17.1.2016 at 6:01 AM, Ygritte. said:

There is mention of a pact between the Targaryens and Starks regarding a royal princess marrying into the Stark family (a promise that was never followed through).

"Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III ... even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon."

Seeing as the main series is called 'A Song of Ice and Fire', is this foreshadowing that such a pact will be fulfilled (finally).  Thus uniting the two old families in a very 'War of the Roses' style of ending.

Hidden Content

Rhaegar as a Targaryen BRIDEgroom?

[norwaywolf123]

On 4.4.2016 at 6:44 AM, chrisdaw said:

Arya + whoever Tyrion's heir is, probably Robert Arryn.

wtf? Explain

[Lord Wraith]

On 1/17/2016 at 0:01 AM, Ygritte. said:

There is mention of a pact between the Targaryens and Starks regarding a royal princess marrying into the Stark family (a promise that was never followed through).

"Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III ... even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon."

Seeing as the main series is called 'A Song of Ice and Fire', is this foreshadowing that such a pact will be fulfilled (finally).  Thus uniting the two old families in a very 'War of the Roses' style of ending.

Hidden Content

I am a fan of the Ashford theory that Sansa and Aegon will rule in the end after Jon comes South to do a Cregan Stark before heading back to the North.