The hypocrisy of ned

[house of dayne]

If r+l=j is true, and the two of them secretly married, the jon by rights is rhaegars heir andneds true king. Yet as hand of the king  ned rarely spends much time considering jon at all..In fact he seems far more concerned about daenerys and the plot to kill her..ned is famously haunted by his vision of lyannas deathbed and the promise she extracted..the haunting feeling ned gets as he recalls lyannas promise strongly implies guilt, as though the promise was unkept...yet ned never express any shame or guilt in regards to jon...remember, if rhaegar and lyanna eloped and birthed jon, by rights jon is neds king and lord, as well as kin...neds lie about his bloodlines denies jon his rightful birthright. Furthermore, he allows jon to take the back and swear an oath to give up all titles and claims without informing him off the truth...he does this without a single pang of guilt or thought about jons right to know..i get that he has a loyalty to robert but to not privately confide to jon the truth is a dark stain on his honour..not once does he consider the deep betrayal he has commited his rightful king...like it or not, jon has a claim to the iron throne and its not neds right to deny him...this essentialy the position he took in support of stannis against renly yet he never considered his own hypocrisy in lying to jon his whole life about his superior claim...given neds deep sense of honour it strikes me as out of character 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

27 minutes ago, house of dayne said:

If r+l=j is true, and the two of them secretly married, the jon by rights is rhaegars heir andneds true king. Yet as hand of the king  ned rarely spends much time considering jon at all..In fact he seems far more concerned about daenerys and the plot to kill her..ned is famously haunted by his vision of lyannas deathbed and the promise she extracted..the haunting feeling ned gets as he recalls lyannas promise strongly implies guilt, as though the promise was unkept...yet ned never express any shame or guilt in regards to jon...remember, if rhaegar and lyanna eloped and birthed jon, by rights jon is neds king and lord, as well as kin...neds lie about his bloodlines denies jon his rightful birthright. Furthermore, he allows jon to take the back and swear an oath to give up all titles and claims without informing him off the truth...he does this without a single pang of guilt or thought about jons right to know..i get that he has a loyalty to robert but to not privately confide to jon the truth is a dark stain on his honour..not once does he consider the deep betrayal he has commited his rightful king...like it or not, jon has a claim to the iron throne and its not neds right to deny him...this essentialy the position he took in support of stannis against renly yet he never considered his own hypocrisy in lying to jon his whole life about his superior claim...given neds deep sense of honour it strikes me as out of character 

Well, you assume Jon is the son of Rhaegar.  Ned's behavior is such that Jon could really be his unwanted bastard.  A claim is a claim is a claim.  Oh, yeah.  Proof is very important.  Assuming meathead Jon is the son of Rhaegar. Ned would have a tough time convincing anyone of that.  I mean, meathead looks just like him.  The boy looks nothing at all like the Targaryens.  He has that angular, long-faced, look of the north.  

I do agree about the Stark hypocrisy.  On the surface, they are an honorable, very proud folk.  Look deeper down and you see Jon break his vows twice.  Lyanna broke her vows and ran off with a married guy. 

[sweetsunray]

Jon would not be Ned's true king if Ned regards the Targ dynasty overthrown. At best, he would be the grandson of an overthrown king. It is clear that Ned chose to regard the Targ dynasty over and done with, and that Robert was his king and the Baratheons as the new dynasty.

What Lyanna asked for a promise is speculative. I doubt she literally spelled out to Ned to make Jon king. Ned does regard his promises to Lyanna as promises he kept. It is only in the dungeons that he is troubled by promises not kept, and this in a page of paragraphs dealing with Robert and Cat. Since he ended up in the dungeons he was physically unable to keep any of the promises he made to Robert. He was even unable to eat a slice of the boar Robert had killed.

That said, Ned and promises are a grey area. He makes a promise with his own interpretation in mind that can deviate from the asker's intent. Example: Robert asks Ned to help and look after his children, clearly meaning Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen. Except Robert does not use their names. Ned knows they are not Robert's children and has no intention whatsoever to help them in the sense that Robert intends it. Instead, he thinks of Robert's bastard children. And so when Ned promises to take care of Robert's children as if they were his own, he in his mind and heart promises to take care of Robert's bastards as if they are his own. So, this includes a level of duplicity, but the promises asked for allow Ned this room. We see the same thing with Barra's mother. She wants Ned to promise he tells Robert she loves him, that his daughter is called Barra and looks like him. And that's exactly what he does after he wakes up and has his discussion with Robert and Cersei. He tells Robert the name of his newborn bastard daughter, that the mother is a foolish girl in love with Robert, and that his daughter looks like his firstborn daughter Mya Stone, who looks like Robert (female version). What is different is the unspoken intent. Barra's mother asks for these promises in order to make a good impression, while Ned delivers it in an almost flippant manner. Of course, the mother's unspoken hope was wishful thinking, and Ned could never have delivered the news to Robert in a positive romantic way or convince Robert to love the mother or his bastard daughter.

Hence it is most likely that Lyanna asked for general promises that allowed Ned the room to fulfill them in a way that matched his own opinion, beliefs and intent. Technically he never broke any promise and never went against what he felt was right - protecting Jon, while backing Robert Baratheon as the king who overthrew the Targ dynasty.

As for blaming Ned for Jon taking the black and not telling about his parentage... Jon wanted it, Cat refused to allow to let Jon remain in WF while Ned was South, and he could not take him to court. Ned basically was outmanouvered by Jon, Cat and maester Luwin, and had his back against the wall. They all made the decision for him. Ned's only recourse was to go along with it. And as far as informing Jon of his parentage goes: Ned never considered Jon as having any claim at all, not to the throne, not to WF, for the throne was Baratheon's and Ned has 3 trueborn sons that come before Jon. On top of that, Ned believed he would live a long while yet.

There is also a difference between backing Baratheon dynasty over Targ dynasty than Renly's argument. While RR sets a precedent for overthrowing a dynasty by might is right, the rebellion originated for a) defense reasons b ) to overthrow a tyrant. Robert was not only chosen as king for reasons of "I won the war" (then Ned or Hoster Tully or Jon Arryn had similar right to it), but also following dynastic reasons. So, while a new dynasty replaces the old one, the dynastic inheritance logic follows after that. And it looked like Stannis would have been the opposite of Aerys - not a tyrant, but a man who does not play favoritism, corruption and as he wishes and straying from law. On top of that, since Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen aren't actually Robert's children, Stannis would be the rightful heir within dynastic logic, for anyone who backs the Baratheon dynasty.

So, no by Ned's logic and beliefs he is not being hypocritical. Hypocrisy means that a person goes against his conscious, not against the reader's conscious. We might rightfully frown at some of his use of the room he's given, but the man consistently acts in concordance to his beliefs. He solely considers the alteration of the will as going against his conscious, because he was literally dictated one thing, and he altered the wording. If we call a man who's lived close to 40 years going against his conscious only once a hypocrite in general for that, then everyone is a hypocrite.

BTW imo LF is not a hypocrite either. Tywin is though. He loves to shame other people for doing what he does himself.

 

[SFDanny]

I think there is good reason to think Ned believes Jon bastard born. I think there is also good reason to believe that is not the case. We should not assume Ned knows everything about Lyanna's life with Rhaegar because they had a death bed conversation that had to be preoccupied with getting Ned to agree with what Lyanna wanted him to promise.

[slant]

nah Ned's character is unquestionable. One of his biggest problems is the incapacity for duplicity. Think this through and unravel it, there are some good leads in here. 

[purple-eyes]

Who said jon must be a true born? Please do not use your assumption as a fact to mislead other people. Unless you were officially informed by grrm. 

You use one hypothesis to extend to another hypothesis, fine, but this can not make your first hypotheses automatically true. 

[RattleSnake]

Ned, in his honor, did a lot of mistakes. I agree. But taking the black actually 'saved' Jon's life. Even if that meant him renouncing claims, name, a wife, children etc. Had Jon stayed at Winterfel, he might have been butchered along with the others. If he followed Robb, he would have died at the Red Wedding. If he went with Ned in KL, he would have probably been killed off. Sansa, who is trueborn and just a girl, is treated awful, tormented, beaten by knights. Imagine that Jon wouldn't have gotten even that sort of treatment, just death.

I also think it was not safe to offer details of Jon's parentage, even if he is a bastard or hidden heir. Robert Baratheon wouldn't have liked that. And he only changed his mind about the assassination of Dany and her unborn child on his deathbed. I think Ned did what he could to protect Jon, even if that meant keeping him in the dark about his mother.

[Bea Noleto]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

As for blaming Ned for Jon taking the black and not telling about his parentage... Jon wanted it, Cat refused to allow to let Jon remain in WF while Ned was South, and he could not take him to court. Ned basically was outmanouvered by Jon, Cat and maester Luwin, and had his back against the wall. They all made the decision for him. Ned's only recourse was to go along with it. And as far as informing Jon of his parentage goes: Ned never considered Jon as having any claim at all, not to the throne, not to WF, for the throne was Baratheon's and Ned has 3 trueborn sons that come before Jon. On top of that, Ned believed he would live a long while yet.

 

Ned was to blame in letting Jon take the black. When he was in the black cells he thought he would rather die than join the Night's Watch, a place of thieves and murderers, not a place for a high lord, honorable men as himself. But good enough for Jon, a kid who had done nothing wrong. He never bothered talking to Jon, understanding what his motives were, what he was thinking, explaining what kind of place the wall really was.

It was not as if Ned didn't have a choice to send Jon elsewhere. He was the freaking great lord of the North, he could send Jon to be fostered by any of his bannermen. In fact, he should have thought of Jon's future long ago, because the bastard needed a career, he couldn't just hang around, and Jon was almost a man grown for their standards. 

Ned shouldn't be cornered by the situation, it should go like "oh, i have thought of sending Jon to the Bear Islands when he turned 16, but I don't think Maege would mind if we speed up the plan". ( I thought that Bear Islands is a good place, because the Mormont women have children with a "bear" and no one seems to bother, the kid is not a bastard because of that.) 

Or Jon could marry a highborn bastard girl and be master-in-arms of some friendly lord. 

The idea that he was pretty sure that he would live long is also not suitable for a man who took part in two conflitcs in his lifetime, whose family almost got extinct and knows very well the horrors of the world and how everything can go to shit in a moment.

He just didn't care and took the easy way out.

I just don't know if, had he really thought deeply about it,  it would be against his beliefs, but it is a stain in his character.

[Bea Noleto]

4 hours ago, RattleSnake said:

Ned, in his honor, did a lot of mistakes. I agree. But taking the black actually 'saved' Jon's life. Even if that meant him renouncing claims, name, a wife, children etc. Had Jon stayed at Winterfel, he might have been butchered along with the others. If he followed Robb, he would have died at the Red Wedding. If he went with Ned in KL, he would have probably been killed off. Sansa, who is trueborn and just a girl, is treated awful, tormented, beaten by knights. Imagine that Jon wouldn't have gotten even that sort of treatment, just death.

I also think it was not safe to offer details of Jon's parentage, even if he is a bastard or hidden heir. Robert Baratheon wouldn't have liked that. And he only changed his mind about the assassination of Dany and her unborn child on his deathbed. I think Ned did what he could to protect Jon, even if that meant keeping him in the dark about his mother.

He didn't know he was saving Jon. What he knew is that Jon would never have a wife or kids, and would freeze at wall surrounded by people he considered the scum of Westeros for the rest of his life.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Bea Noleto said:

Ned was hypocritical  in letting Jon take the black. When he was in the black cells he thought he would rather die than join the Night's Watch, a place of thieves and murderers, not a place for a high lord, honorable men as himself. But good enough for Jon, a kid who had done nothing wrong. He never bothered talking to Jon, understanding what his motives were, what he was thinking, explaining what kind of place the wall really was.

It was not as if Ned didn't have a choice to send Jon elsewhere. He was the freaking great lord of the North, he could send Jon to be fostered by any of his bannermen. In fact, he should have thought of Jon's future long ago, because the bastard needed a career, he couldn't just hang around, and Jon was almost a man grown for their standards. 

Ned shouldn't be cornered by the situation, it should go like "oh, i have thought of sending Jon to the Bear Islands when he turned 16, but I don't think Maege would mind if we speed up the plan". ( I thought that Bear Islands is a good place, because the Mormont women have children with a "bear" and no one seems to bother, the kid is not a bastard because of that.) 

Or Jon could marry a highborn bastard girl and be master-in-arms of some friendly lord. 

The idea that he was pretty sure that he would live long is also not suitable for a man who took part in two conflitcs in his lifetime, whose family almost got extinct and knows very well the horrors of the world and how everything can go to shit in a moment.

He just didn't care and took the easy way out.

 

Ned wanting to rather die had nothing to do with the watch, but proclaiming himself a traitor and most especially proclaiming Joffrey the true king. You're just making stuff up that's not in the textual thought processes of Ned.

Ned not planning ahead about Jon's future is a criticism regarding all his children, not just Jon. Robb was not betrothed yet. He was surprised that Robert came with a betrothal proposal for Sansa. He had soem vague ideas for Jon, but not planned out yet, and when Robert came it was too late. But it's a failing for all the Stark children. He's the man who still thinks of his children in diapers (and Rickon is only recently out of them) and suddenly realizes his eldest goes out on a date for his senior prom. So, while it's a point of criticism and a parental failure in a feudal society, it can't be called hypocritical.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

6 hours ago, RattleSnake said:

Ned, in his honor, did a lot of mistakes. I agree. But taking the black actually 'saved' Jon's life. Even if that meant him renouncing claims, name, a wife, children etc. Had Jon stayed at Winterfel, he might have been butchered along with the others. If he followed Robb, he would have died at the Red Wedding. If he went with Ned in KL, he would have probably been killed off. Sansa, who is trueborn and just a girl, is treated awful, tormented, beaten by knights. Imagine that Jon wouldn't have gotten even that sort of treatment, just death.

I also think it was not safe to offer details of Jon's parentage, even if he is a bastard or hidden heir. Robert Baratheon wouldn't have liked that. And he only changed his mind about the assassination of Dany and her unborn child on his deathbed. I think Ned did what he could to protect Jon, even if that meant keeping him in the dark about his mother.

I agree.

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned wanting to rather die had nothing to do with the watch, but proclaiming himself a traitor and most especially proclaiming Joffrey the true king. You're just making stuff up that's not in the textual thought processes of Ned.

Ned not planning ahead about Jon's future is a criticism regarding all his children, not just Jon. Robb was not betrothed yet. He was surprised that Robert came with a betrothal proposal for Sansa. He had soem vague ideas for Jon, but not planned out yet, and when Robert came it was too late. But it's a failing for all the Stark children. He's the man who still thinks of his children in diapers (and Rickon is only recently out of them) and suddenly realizes his eldest goes out on a date for his senior prom. So, while it's a point of criticism and a parental failure in a feudal society, it can't be called hypocritical.

I always figured Jon would have had some role in repopulating the Gift after Ned dealt with Mance Raydar. Alas that is not our story.

[Scarn]

3 hours ago, Bea Noleto said:

Ned was to blame in letting Jon take the black. When he was in the black cells he thought he would rather die than join the Night's Watch, a place of thieves and murderers, not a place for a high lord, honorable men as himself. But good enough for Jon, a kid who had done nothing wrong. He never bothered talking to Jon, understanding what his motives were, what he was thinking, explaining what kind of place the wall really was.

It was not as if Ned didn't have a choice to send Jon elsewhere. He was the freaking great lord of the North, he could send Jon to be fostered by any of his bannermen. In fact, he should have thought of Jon's future long ago, because the bastard needed a career, he couldn't just hang around, and Jon was almost a man grown for their standards. 

Ned shouldn't be cornered by the situation, it should go like "oh, i have thought of sending Jon to the Bear Islands when he turned 16, but I don't think Maege would mind if we speed up the plan". ( I thought that Bear Islands is a good place, because the Mormont women have children with a "bear" and no one seems to bother, the kid is not a bastard because of that.) 

Or Jon could marry a highborn bastard girl and be master-in-arms of some friendly lord. 

The idea that he was pretty sure that he would live long is also not suitable for a man who took part in two conflitcs in his lifetime, whose family almost got extinct and knows very well the horrors of the world and how everything can go to shit in a moment.

He just didn't care and took the easy way out.

I just don't know if, had he really thought deeply about it,  it would be against his beliefs, but it is a stain in his character.

I figured Ned didnt want to take the black because that would mean giving up on the idea that Geoff and co. were illegitimate. I didnt see it as a go to hell im too good for the watch, but to be fair i havent read GOT in a while. As far as it being good enough for Jon.. isnt Jon safer at the wall considering his possible lineage? I would have liked for him to have been at the Winterfell or with Robb though. It might have changed some outcomes.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

37 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I always figured Jon would have had some role in repopulating the Gift after Ned dealt with Mance Raydar. Alas that is not our story.

Why was Ned so confident in the fact that Mance was no threat to him, as referenced in AGOT?

[Lord_Ravenstone]

8 hours ago, RattleSnake said:

Ned, in his honor, did a lot of mistakes. I agree. But taking the black actually 'saved' Jon's life. Even if that meant him renouncing claims, name, a wife, children etc. Had Jon stayed at Winterfel, he might have been butchered along with the others. If he followed Robb, he would have died at the Red Wedding. If he went with Ned in KL, he would have probably been killed off. Sansa, who is trueborn and just a girl, is treated awful, tormented, beaten by knights. Imagine that Jon wouldn't have gotten even that sort of treatment, just death.

I also think it was not safe to offer details of Jon's parentage, even if he is a bastard or hidden heir. Robert Baratheon wouldn't have liked that. And he only changed his mind about the assassination of Dany and her unborn child on his deathbed. I think Ned did what he could to protect Jon, even if that meant keeping him in the dark about his mother.

That's not really true. If Jon goes on campaign with Robb then he's there for Robb to turn to when he hears about Bran and Rickon's death. So no Westerling marriage and no Red Wedding.

If he's at Winterfell he could potentially convince Bran and Rodrik to leave a little more troops at Winterfell thereby butterflying away the Red Wedding, Cat freeing Jaime and Rickard Karstark betraying Robb.

 

 

[briantw]

On 2/15/2016 at 8:00 PM, house of dayne said:

If r+l=j is true, and the two of them secretly married, the jon by rights is rhaegars heir andneds true king. Yet as hand of the king  ned rarely spends much time considering jon at all..In fact he seems far more concerned about daenerys and the plot to kill her..ned is famously haunted by his vision of lyannas deathbed and the promise she extracted..the haunting feeling ned gets as he recalls lyannas promise strongly implies guilt, as though the promise was unkept...yet ned never express any shame or guilt in regards to jon...remember, if rhaegar and lyanna eloped and birthed jon, by rights jon is neds king and lord, as well as kin...neds lie about his bloodlines denies jon his rightful birthright. Furthermore, he allows jon to take the back and swear an oath to give up all titles and claims without informing him off the truth...he does this without a single pang of guilt or thought about jons right to know..i get that he has a loyalty to robert but to not privately confide to jon the truth is a dark stain on his honour..not once does he consider the deep betrayal he has commited his rightful king...like it or not, jon has a claim to the iron throne and its not neds right to deny him...this essentialy the position he took in support of stannis against renly yet he never considered his own hypocrisy in lying to jon his whole life about his superior claim...given neds deep sense of honour it strikes me as out of character 

Unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married, Jon would be Rhaegar's natural son, not his trueborn son.  He'd still be a bastard and, thus, not in the line of succession.  Further, given what happened to his father and brother, I doubt Ned is in any sort of rush to restore the Targs to power.  At that point in the story, Robert is king, and his heir, given what Ned knew about Joffrey, would be Stannis.  Beyond that, Jon has taken his vows with the Night's Watch by the time Ned finds out about Cercei's incest, which makes him totally ineligible to hold lands or titles anyway.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

That's not really true. If Jon goes on campaign with Robb then he's there for Robb to turn to when he hears about Bran and Rickon's death. So no Westerling marriage and no Red Wedding.

If he's at Winterfell he could potentially convince Bran and Rodrik to leave a little more troops at Winterfell thereby butterflying away the Red Wedding, Cat freeing Jaime and Rickard Karstark betraying Robb.

 

 

Or cut Theon's fucking head off.

[Rob Storm]

Ned has serious reasons to dislike the Targaryens.  His father, brother and sister are all dead within the span of a year.  Saying that he should defend the claim of a Targaryen after leading a rebellion against them whether he is true born or not would be in my opinion very difficult.  People seem to really gloss over the pain the Mad King inflicted on Ned and in my opinion it is very honorable how despite this he raises Jon as well as he can.  Along with the way he defends Danaerys because she is just a young child.  

 

Targaryens inflicted the same, if not greater harm on the Starks than the Lannisters.  I don't see Starks supporting eithers claim anytime soon.

[RattleSnake]

5 hours ago, Bea Noleto said:

He didn't know he was saving Jon. What he knew is that Jon would never have a wife or kids, and would freeze at wall surrounded by people he considered the scum of Westeros for the rest of his life.

Very true. It was 3 AM when I wrote the post so it wasn't formulated  very clear. I should have added exactly what you pointed out. Catelyn did not want Jon to remain at Winterfell and Ned thought Jon wouldn't have a place in King's Landing. I might be wrong, but I think there might be good reason why Ned did not want Jon near king Robert. Maybe, although bearing the stark features, Jon also has some that could be reminiscent of his father. People at court who knew Rhaegar might recognize something of him in Jon. At the wall, Maester Aemon, who knew Rhaegar, is blind. What a coincidence. 

[Lord Wraith]

2 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Why was Ned so confident in the fact that Mance was no threat to him, as referenced in AGOT?

Probably because every other King beyond the Wall has failed.