When did Shae betray Tyrion

[dRagonese]

Was Shae a spy for tywin the whole time, and if so how did they stay in communication. Also how would he have found out if she wasnt a spy the whole time, was it while he was incapacitated after the black water? that is the only time it makes sense that tywin could have gotten to her unnoticed by him or varys and with V dog being the eyes and ears of the red keep how would he not have found out that tywin was talking with shay, there is no way Varys did not have someone listeing to tywin at all times. There is no good answer for how tywin could have turned shay without tyrion knowing. If Varys did know then why would he not tell tyrion, he seems to genuinely like him as we see when he smuggles him out of KL.  PaLot Hole

[John Suburbs]

I can't say that Shae was spying on Tyrion for Tywin since the beginning, but I do think that she was sent by Littlefinger to spy on Tywin and his bannermen.

Shae is a whore, so right away she fits LF's MO. I can imagine he has sent hundreds of Shae's throughout the seven kingdoms with orders to get as close as possible to the high and mighty. Since they are all undoubtedly beautiful and skilled in the ways of the seven sighs, they will naturally make their way to the high lords.

Shae just happened to become attached to Tyrion and then to Tywin (or perhaps the other way around).

I find it interesting that on multiple occasions she begs Tyrion to take her to Joffrey's wedding because she wants to see pigeons fly out of a pie.

[dRagonese]

4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I can't say that Shae was spying on Tyrion for Tywin since the beginning, but I do think that she was sent by Littlefinger to spy on Tywin and his bannermen.

Shae is a whore, so right away she fits LF's MO. I can imagine he has sent hundreds of Shae's throughout the seven kingdoms with orders to get as close as possible to the high and mighty. Since they are all undoubtedly beautiful and skilled in the ways of the seven sighs, they will naturally make their way to the high lords.

Shae just happened to become attached to Tyrion and then to Tywin (or perhaps the other way around).

I find it interesting that on multiple occasions she begs Tyrion to take her to Joffrey's wedding because she wants to see pigeons fly out of a pie.

Thats a good point, I know LF gets his info somehow and that does seem like the best way to do it. The pigeons out of pie does not seem like anything more then a low born whore looking to see something extraordinary and live as a member of high society for night.

[John Suburbs]

2 minutes ago, dRagonese said:

Thats a good point, I know LF gets his info somehow and that does seem like the best way to do it. The pigeons out of pie does not seem like anything more then a low born whore looking to see something extraordinary and live as a member of high society for night.

Perhaps. It's just interesting that she mentions that specific event several times, which, of course, is when the poison is to deployed in a plot orchestrated by LF. I'm thinking that by this point, LF has put pressure on her to wheedle her way into the feast so as to keep an eye on the situation.

[dRagonese]

Thats a good thought, she does mention the pies more then just the overall feast, could be a good clue as to LF controlling her.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I believe that Shae was loyal to Tyrion until the exact moment when it became dangerous and no longer beneficial to her. If Tywin had known about her prior to Joff's murder, I have no doubt he'd have had her hanged just as promised.

I'm not sure she was working directly with or for Varys either, simply because of how surprised Varys was when she recognized him.

She certainly lived a lush life for someone in her profession, but toward the end, she was getting restless and greedy. That resentment made it easy for her to go to Cersei and offer to be a witness, because she thought that she would be well rewarded for it.

[corbon]

On 19/03/2016 at 10:51 PM, dRagonese said:

Was Shae a spy for tywin the whole time, and if so how did they stay in communication.

It seems unlikely that she was a spy for anyone, given the circumstances of her employment. Unless you think Bronn was also a spy for someone else. But Bronn was a random bystander in the Inn when Tyrion was arrested who took Catelyn's side initially. So its hard to see Bronn being other than what he seems. He's played his part too thoroughly.
Remember, Shae was a camp follower in the bed of a random junior nobody when Bronn hauled her out of one bed and into Tyrion's. Hard to see how she could have been 'placed' there by someone aimed at Tyrion.
 

Quote

Also how would he have found out if she wasnt a spy the whole time, was it while he was incapacitated after the black water? that is the only time it makes sense that tywin could have gotten to her unnoticed by him or varys and with V dog being the eyes and ears of the red keep how would he not have found out that tywin was talking with shay, there is no way Varys did not have someone listeing to tywin at all times. There is no good answer for how tywin could have turned shay without tyrion knowing. If Varys did know then why would he not tell tyrion, he seems to genuinely like him as we see when he smuggles him out of KL.  PaLot Hole

I don't think she anything other than she seemed - a whore loyal primarily to herself (and why shouldn't she be), a better actor than most, on to a very good thing with Tyrion (compared to where she was before that). But when Tyrion was arrested and charged with Treason, she has no reason to be loyal to him at all, especially if she's not been seeing the cash (and she's not been on the great deal she had lately because shes been working as a scullery maid (IIRC) instead of a wealthy courtesan).

So when Tyrion is arrested, it looks like she's going to lose everything she 'made' from him and has no reason to be loyal. And reason to be bitter - she started off 'well' but then she got shunted into a scullery job and lost all her freedom, jewels and clothes etc. Tyrion made lots of promises that don't appear to be going to come through any more. So he's just another john who backstabbed and cheated her. Thats why she is vindictive on Cersei's behalf. She had appeared to rise so high, and been dropped right back down to nothing with nothing to show fr her work.
As for Tywin, I think thats just an opportunity to regain the rich life for her (and Tywin being his assholery self). Why wouldn't she take it?

The only real flaw here is Tyrion knowing she was a whore and a good actor, yet fooling himself into thinking they were in a real relationship and expecting that of her. They weren't, ever.

[Makk]

I can't understand the scene with Shae in Tywins bedchamber without considering she had been spying on Tyrion and had known Tywin the entire time. The only other justification I have heard is that Tywin wanted to possess what Tyrion had, but that always seemed extremely weak to me. Why would Tywin want Tyrions whore and why would he reward her with jewels? The only reason I find compelling is that she was not Tyrions whore, but rather Tywins spy all along.

When you go back to where they met, Tyrion even remarks it was strange that Bronn could find a beauty in the warcamp following the battle. It would be no real challenge to manipulate the situation to get picked up by Bronn. Tyrion is extremely predictable in looking for a whore, Tywin could easily guess he would send Bronn. From there Shae stages a scene where she is being attacked by louts who are also in on the deception. She knows exactly how to win Tyrions affection because Tywin has told  her he simply wants to feel loved.

Would Tywin have wanted to spy on Tyrion when he sends him to kings landing as hand? Of course he would. He uses reverse psychology telling Tyrion to leave her behind knowing that this will make him more likely to keep her. He probably shouldn't have even known about Shae at that point if he wasn't spying.

It also explains why Shae so badly wanted to stay with Tyrion in Kings landing, instead of letting him set her up with money in safety when it became dangerous. It was because her mission was to stay close to him. When you first read you could suppose that it was because she was genuinely in love with him, but that is quickly dispelled when you know what is coming later.

 I don't think it changes too much. It merely helps explain a few things and makes events more credible.

 

[Guest]

Agree. This is a good theory.  Someone needs to go back into the books and look for GRRM foreshadowing that would give it more credibility, but on the surface it makes perfect sense.  

On question, if he was Tywin's though, why would she need to be chained up in his bedroom when Tyrion finds her.  Wouldn't she be with Tywin of her free will?  

[HexMachina]

1 minute ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Agree. This is a good theory.  Someone needs to go back into the books and look for GRRM foreshadowing that would give it more credibility, but on the surface it makes perfect sense.  

On question, if he was Tywin's though, why would she need to be chained up in his bedroom when Tyrion finds her.  Wouldn't she be with Tywin of her free will?  

Shae was not chained up. She was wearing the Hands' chain (a necklace style thing)

[Guest]

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

Shae was not chained up. She was wearing the Hands' chain (a necklace style thing)

 

whoops, getting to be a long time since I read these!  I need to get through a re-listening.

[Curled Finger]

I've read many arguments about Tyrion being a fool for believing Shae was in love with him.   Like many posters above, I do think she worked for Tywin.    Probably at the point Tyrion left the camp for King's Landing.  She was wearing Tywin's golden hands necklace, for crying out loud.  Does Tywin strike anyone as some needy and insecure man who would need to allow a whore to wear his jewelry to get a thrill?   Shae may not have started out as a spy or mole or plant, but she did eventually take on that role.   Read her testimony.   Look at the circumstances of her death.   Yes, Tyrion should have been more aware, but she played him and played him well.  

[The Fattest Leech]

I think despite the shrewd, honorable face that Tywin wears, he does enjoy pleasure such as whores. It may be that he was slowly turning into his father himself (as Cersei is doing... sorry, couldn't help). I could see Shae being opportunistic and trying to upjump herself into a better position by betraying Tyrion. 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

[Tyrion] "How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?"

[Varys] "The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence."

[Tyrion] "And yet you knew of it."

[Lord Wraith]

I have read theories that Shae was working for either Tywin, Littlefinger, or Varys with varying degrees of sense. Could be she was just trying to play powerful men off each other to further her station.

Having Shae in Tywin's bed just seems like a plant by Varys. That and Varys reverse psychology on sending Tyrion up there.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Makk said:

I can't understand the scene with Shae in Tywins bedchamber without considering she had been spying on Tyrion and had known Tywin the entire time. The only other justification I have heard is that Tywin wanted to possess what Tyrion had, but that always seemed extremely weak to me. Why would Tywin want Tyrions whore and why would he reward her with jewels? The only reason I find compelling is that she was not Tyrions whore, but rather Tywins spy all along.

I don't understand what is so difficult?
From Shae's POV, its a huge opportunity, a second once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to gain an extraordinarily rich and powerful client.

From Tywin's POV its clearly a petty way of acting out his hatred of Tyrion.
It makes no sense that Tywin would take Shae to bed if she was actually his employee all along. Tywin isn't the type to fuck the help, especially not after Aerys' dismissal of Cersei for Rhaegar's wife. But he is very petty and over the top to his enemies when he can afford to be.

A few other notes:
- Tywin didn't reward her with jewels I don't think. I think you are referring to her wearing the chain of the Hand - Tyrion's chain (Ned wore a silver hand cloak clasp as his badge of office). I suspect she might have been in a lot of trouble if Tywin had caught her wearing that. Its exactly the sort of thing that would infuriate him, a common whore wearing a badge of his high office.
 - Tywin isn't against whores, he's against i) publicly cavorting with them and ii) letting them get above themselves. There is no particular reason he wouldn't stoop to sleeping with Shae. Indeed, there's some argument that he is the Hand that was responsible for building the tunnel to Chatayas - so he could cavort without it being known.
 - this all assumes Tywin even knew Shae was there, that she wasn't planted by Varys while Tywin was on the toilet. Its not clear either way...
 - I'm not at all sure Shae would have survived the night with Tywin. Especially not if she wore the chain. It solves so very many problems for him if she disappears...

2 hours ago, Makk said:

When you go back to where they met, Tyrion even remarks it was strange that Bronn could find a beauty in the warcamp following the battle.

Quote please?
Shae isn't a particular beauty, she's just attractive enough and a very good actress. Mostly what she has is attitude. First sass, then girlfriend, but none of it is real (well, maybe the sass).

The life of a soldier was not without certain compensations. Wherever you have a camp, you are certain to have camp followers. At the end of the day's march, Tyrion had sent Bronn back to find him a likely whore. "I would prefer one who is reasonably young, with as pretty a face as you can find," he had said. "If she has washed sometime this year, I shall be glad. If she hasn't, wash her. Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am."
He lifted the candle and looked her over. Bronn had done well enough; she was doe-eyed and slim, with small firm breasts and a smile that was by turns shy, insolent, and wicked. He liked that. "Shall I take my gown off, m'lord?" she asked.
...
"Where did you find her?" Tyrion asked him as he pissed.

"I took her from a knight. The man was loath to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat … that, and my dirk at his throat."

"Splendid," Tyrion said dryly, shaking off the last drops. "I seem to recall saying find me a whore, not make me an enemy."

"The pretty ones were all claimed," Bronn said. "I'll be pleased to take her back if you'd prefer a toothless drab."

 

2 hours ago, Makk said:

It would be no real challenge to manipulate the situation to get picked up by Bronn.

Wouldn't it?
I would have thought doing something like setting up a whorehouse, which Tyrion is well known for frequenting, or something similar would be a far more reliable way than getting effectively stolen from someone else.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

Tyrion is extremely predictable in looking for a whore, Tywin could easily guess he would send Bronn.

Really? This would be the Tyrion whose just turned up from nowhere and the Bronn that no one in the Lannister camp knows anything about. Yet Tywin knows exactly how to get Bronn to pick Shae, out of all the women in the camp, to steal from another knight?

2 hours ago, Makk said:

From there Shae stages a scene where she is being attacked by louts who are also in on the deception. She knows exactly how to win Tyrions affection because Tywin has told  her he simply wants to feel loved.

She wasn't being attacked by louts, there was no scene. She was camp follower of another knight, Bronn took her by force from him and because he was Tyrion's man the other guy had no real recourse.
Tyrion himself told her exactly want he wanted. Before that she didn't act that way, she was very simply mercenary, almost honest in her mercenary-ness.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

Would Tywin have wanted to spy on Tyrion when he sends him to kings landing as hand? Of course he would.

Sure. But he has many many any other sources. He doesn't need a whore to spy on Tyrion and he doesn't want one in Tyrion's bed. This is a visceral thing for Tywin, because of his history.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

He uses reverse psychology telling Tyrion to leave her behind knowing that this will make him more likely to keep her.

Ugh, no. Tyrion is extremely indiscreet - he just doesn't care. But Tywin is still not over the episode with his father's whore and the issue of publicly using whores, and being attached to them, is intensely important to him. This is so very much not reverse psychology here...

2 hours ago, Makk said:

He probably shouldn't have even known about Shae at that point if he wasn't spying.

Brilliant. So because he's already spying he needs to place a whore as a spy?
Of course he was spying. He dislikes and distrusts Tyrion because Tyrion brings nothing but shame to Lannister glory. Of course he knew Tyrion had a whore.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

It also explains why Shae so badly wanted to stay with Tyrion in Kings landing, instead of letting him set her up with money in safety when it became dangerous. It was because her mission was to stay close to him. When you first read you could suppose that it was because she was genuinely in love with him, but that is quickly dispelled when you know what is coming later.

She was never genuinely in love with him, that much is clear. But a girl like that in her position, she needs her patron close or she's screwed. The servants etc will never treat her well without her patron within figurative earshot. And worse, if she's out of the way, someone else could steal him. She simply looking out for herself, tryin to stay with him, she just doesn't understand, or believe, the dangers.

2 hours ago, Makk said:

 I don't think it changes too much. It merely helps explain a few things and makes events more credible.

I agree it doesn't change much. I just don't think it itself is credible that she was a spy for anyone else, unless Bronn was too (and thats not very credible either) and I think things are perfectly well explained without it.

[The Dragons Hand]

I wish I knew what she was thinking when Tyrion told her about Tysha.

She doesn't react in any way I recognize. As far as I can remember she goes stony-faced and doesn't reply until the moment passes.

[SevasTra82]

The ironic part about the whole Tyrion/Shae relationship is that, IMO...she was exactly what she was the entire time...a paid whore doing what the man that paid her told her to do.  So technically she never "betrayed" Tyrion.  She was a whore, always was a whore, and remained a whore until her death.  It was Tyrion who placed more worth on her then he should have.

[dRagonese]

On March 21, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Makk said:

I can't understand the scene with Shae in Tywins bedchamber without considering she had been spying on Tyrion and had known Tywin the entire time. The only other justification I have heard is that Tywin wanted to possess what Tyrion had, but that always seemed extremely weak to me. Why would Tywin want Tyrions whore and why would he reward her with jewels? The only reason I find compelling is that she was not Tyrions whore, but rather Tywins spy all along.

When you go back to where they met, Tyrion even remarks it was strange that Bronn could find a beauty in the warcamp following the battle. It would be no real challenge to manipulate the situation to get picked up by Bronn. Tyrion is extremely predictable in looking for a whore, Tywin could easily guess he would send Bronn. From there Shae stages a scene where she is being attacked by louts who are also in on the deception. She knows exactly how to win Tyrions affection because Tywin has told  her he simply wants to feel loved.

Would Tywin have wanted to spy on Tyrion when he sends him to kings landing as hand? Of course he would. He uses reverse psychology telling Tyrion to leave her behind knowing that this will make him more likely to keep her. He probably shouldn't have even known about Shae at that point if he wasn't spying.

It also explains why Shae so badly wanted to stay with Tyrion in Kings landing, instead of letting him set her up with money in safety when it became dangerous. It was because her mission was to stay close to him. When you first read you could suppose that it was because she was genuinely in love with him, but that is quickly dispelled when you know what is coming later.

 I don't think it changes too much. It merely helps explain a few things and makes events more credible.

 

If she was a spy the whole time why didn't Varys know and tell Tyrion, was Varys the one who got her to testify in order to get Tyrion exiled so he could eventfully get him to Griff? That is the only reason I can think that Varys would know and not say anything, and I believe that is very plausible but if it ever comes to light I believe it may ruin the dynamic between the 2. so there is a motive for Varys to hold back that particular secret I suppose. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

19 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

The ironic part about the whole Tyrion/Shae relationship is that, IMO...she was exactly what she was the entire time...a paid whore doing what the man that paid her told her to do.  So technically she never "betrayed" Tyrion.  She was a whore, always was a whore, and remained a whore until her death.  It was Tyrion who placed more worth on her then he should have.

Bingo.

 

[Seams]

On 3/21/2016 at 1:39 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I have read theories that Shae was working for either Tywin, Littlefinger, or Varys with varying degrees of sense. Could be she was just trying to play powerful men off each other to further her station.

Having Shae in Tywin's bed just seems like a plant by Varys. That and Varys reverse psychology on sending Tyrion up there.

 

On 3/21/2016 at 2:43 AM, corbon said:

A few other notes:
- Tywin didn't reward her with jewels I don't think. I think you are referring to her wearing the chain of the Hand - Tyrion's chain (Ned wore a silver hand cloak clasp as his badge of office). I suspect she might have been in a lot of trouble if Tywin had caught her wearing that. Its exactly the sort of thing that would infuriate him, a common whore wearing a badge of his high office.
 - Tywin isn't against whores, he's against i) publicly cavorting with them and ii) letting them get above themselves. There is no particular reason he wouldn't stoop to sleeping with Shae. Indeed, there's some argument that he is the Hand that was responsible for building the tunnel to Chatayas - so he could cavort without it being known.
 - this all assumes Tywin even knew Shae was there, that she wasn't planted by Varys while Tywin was on the toilet. Its not clear either way...

There's something that doesn't add up to me about all this. Call me sentimental, but my reading is that Shae genuinely came to care for Tyrion, just as Tysha and Bronn did. These are three of the "small folk" who were raised up by their associations with Tyrion, who is the "half man." I think we will learn more about Shae's motives, and that it will mean heartache for Tyrion, who strangled her before she could tell him something she wanted him to know.

Part of the logic for my thinking is that Tyrion was already duped once, doubting Tysha's love for him. He was so willing to believe that she was a hired actress that he participated in her torture and degradation, never suspecting that Tysha – also one of the smallfolk - was honest and that it was his father and his brother who had lied to him. What if Shae's apparent betrayal of Tyrion at the trial was not what it seemed, and she hadn't turned on him at all?

By the way, Tysha is a portmanteau of Tyrion and Shae. Could be a red herring, but I suspect that is the kind of hint that GRRM doesn't give us for no reason.

The Symon Silver Tongue song and subsequent murder also hint at something larger in Shae's story. "For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm... " The song was blackmail, yes, but I think there was more to the song than just foreshadowing Shae's strangulation with the chain of the Hand of the King - it may have been a warning to Tyrion. On one level, I think the song contrasted the coldness of Tywin with the warmth of Shae in Tyrion's life. Tywin was not a warm, loving presence in Tyrion's life but Shae really was. The song may also have been a message to Tyrion that he could choose to be a cold Hand of the King, like his father, or he could learn to recognize and accept love.

On a related but somewhat tangential note: I’m interested in the recurring incidence of singer torture and murder in the books: Joffrey tells a tavern singer he can keep either his fingers or his tongue after he sings a song about King Robert fighting a boar that appears to represent Cersei; Tyrion has Bronn kill Symon Silver Tongue; Arya kills Dareon, the deserter from the Night’s Watch; Littlefinger may or may not have tortured Marillion and left him to die. Melisandre faking the burning death of Mance Rayder (killing Rattleshirt instead) may also fit this category. I think the tortures and murders of singers may have something to do with suppressing truths the murderers don’t want to hear. If so, the song about Shae would be a good example of this pattern.

The King-like figures, kings and queens in the stories have a variety of "King's Hand" lieutenants who help them to make their way through the game - Robb has Great John, Stannis has Davos, Bran has Coldhands. Shae had her hands all over Tyrion, and I think she may have been a symbolic "King's Hand" for Tyrion, providing him with the qualities he lacked, but he didn't realize it.

Based on what we know about Varys helping Shae and Tyrion to meet in secret, and Shae's introduction to the tunnels under King's Landing, I think Shae had teamed up with Varys to try to get Tyrion safely away from King's Landing. (Those tunnels have great symbolic and practical importance, by the way, and I think they are going to be significant in the final storming of the Red Keep. Recall also Dany's "Hands," Ser Barristan and Jorah, using the sewer system to invade Meereen. The fact that Shae was with Tyrion in those tunnels and secret chambers among the dragon skulls is worth keeping in mind.) I realize Shae's testimony at the trial doesn't seem to help Tyrion in any way, and I'm not sure how to explain the details of her apparent betrayal on the witness stand. All I can figure is that she had been assured by Varys and/or Tywin that the trial had to come to its preordained conclusion and that Tyrion would then be allowed to escape and live out his life in Essos.

It's possible that Tywin was the Hand of the King who used the tunnel to the brothel, but nothing else in the story hints to us that Tywin slept around. I could see him possibly having one long-time, high-born secret mistress after Joanna Lannister died, but he just doesn't seem like the type to frequent brothels or to bring Tyrion's low-born mistress into his bed.

I may be wrong. If Shae was really in Tywin's bed for paid sex, though, it seems to me that it may have been one more step in the Varys-led plot to free Tyrion. Unless she had to be in his bed to answer the question, "Where do whores go?" Even then, there has to be more to the story of why she was there at the moment Tyrion ascended the ladder to the Hand's bed chamber.

Shae's death at Tyrion's hand, I'm afraid, is going to be Chapter 2 of "Tyrion Betrays His Beloved Because His Father is a Complete Jerk." (Chapter 1 was Tysha.) My guess is that Varys led Shae and possibly Tywin into a trap in which Tyrion was both the trap and another victim. Why should Varys have to kill both Tywin and Kevan Lannister when Tyrion will commit one of the necessary murders for him?

[Penny asks Tyrion] “…what were these truths? Why did Ser Jorah hit you so hard?”

“Why, for love. The same reason I stewed that singer.” He thought of Shae and the look in her eyes as he tightened the chain about her throat, twisting it in his fist. A chain of golden hands.

 

P.S. I hate to say it, but I think many readers underestimate Shae because they have bought into the mentality of the high-born men in the book: she's just a whore. We should leave the insulting and degrading word "whore" to the misogynist characters in the stories. In this forum, the words prostitute or courtesan effectively describe the characters who are either forced or choose to make a living by selling their bodies for sex. Using 21st Century words might leave us more open-minded about complex characters like Shae who bring more to the story than you might notice at first glance.