A Weirwood Ghost

[Voice]

(AKA, "The Origin of the Others," "The Cold Forge Theory," and a few other names which shall remain secret.)

This is the short version, Westeros. (You're welcome! LOL)

 

Part I. It’s been a Long Night's Day for the Others

 

Quote

“They’ve been chillin’ in the heart of winter for the past eight thousand years. Pimpin’ out their ice spiders so they can ride the wind, smooth as Snoop's Cadillac.”

    - Anna Eleanor Roosevelt, 1942

This essay brings together my previous two threads. The first, dealt with what is commonly referred to as Bran’s falling dream, or Bran’s coma dream. It is the dream in which his third eye is opened for the first time. You could say the dream serves as his green ceremony, in which his gifts are awakened. Three Shadows in Bran’s Vision is meant to illustrate that Bran saw entities in situ and in real-time when falling (then flying) in his coma. I spent that thread debating the only two entities that seem to be out of place, namely the second and third shadows Bran sees at the Trident. I believe they represent Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Ilyn Payne (the only two shadows bearing armor are knights). Many have wondered why we should care who or what those shadows represent. Now, I can share my reasons for raising the issue.

If the entities are viewed in real-time, in situ, that means that whatever Bran glimpsed in the heart of winter had already been in place as early as A Game of Thrones:

 

• Bran III, AGOT
  
  Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.
  
  Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.
  
  “Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.
  
  Because winter is coming.

 

This thinking colored my very first read of the books. And, with that idea in the back of my mind, as I read through the series, I was seeing several classes of Others where my fellow readers were only seeing Others and wights. This led to my second OP, The Hierarchy of the Others. The Hierarchy thread was meant to demonstrate that we have yet to see the true threat that the Others represent. They have yet to come in the manner described in tales of the Long Night.

My hierarchy was once too heretical for Heresy, and I debated it extensively in Heresy before posting the OP at Westeros. What made me finally decide to post it was GRRM's letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza, from 1993.

In this letter, my hypothesis seemed to be strongly supported. Of particular interest to me was this line:
 

Quote

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

There are several interesting revelations to be gleamed from this sentence which unify the OP you are now reading with the two that preceded it.

1. The inhuman others ride down on the winds of winter...
Winter has only just come to Westeros, which means we can't have seen these “inhuman others” yet.

2. The inhuman others raise legions of undead and the neverborn...
These we have seen. They are our current text's version of wights (legions of undead) and white walkers (the neverborn).

3. People have “half forgotten” these “demons of legend”...
Now, the Night's Watch is learning the differences between them again. It turns out fire is the best way to kill a wight, and dragonglass (aka frozen fire) is effective against a white walker. My theory suggests neither will be effective against the ancients that ride Ice Spiders, but that this dragonsteel Samwell found mention of in the annals at Castle Black will be.


So, to rewind just a bit, my first thread covering Bran’s Vision was more controversial than the second, I think, because it conflicted with the interpretations found at the Citadel. If my interpretation proves correct, then it would seem that what Bran glimpsed in the Heart of Winter was the in situ, real-time preparation GRRM mentioned in the 1993 letter. The manner of these preparations will be discussed later in this essay.


The second thread, the one dealing with their hierarchy, was surprisingly well received. But I can’t help but wonder if that was partially for the wrong reasons (namely, the show’s depiction of Night’s King). In any case, many people contributed their thoughts and comments and it was a very fruitful discussion, even if it got a little dark at times.


Unlike the other two theories, this essay will breach matters that have, as of yet, not been revealed on the show, nor have they in the books. It is far more theoretical than my previous threads, and because of that, I’ve been hesitant to post it.

I love analyzing these books, as do you, but I’d hate to spoil what I believe is the deepest mystery of the series for my fellow readers. I’m not so arrogant as to just assume I’m right, and spoiler-tag my little fan theory contained in this post. But, if you decide to read on, I think you will agree that what I have to say makes enough sense to truly be where the series has been headed in terms of the Song of Ice and Fire.

So, with that in mind, I advise you read no further if you wish to remain Unsullied... 

 

[Full version, with illustrations]

[Voice]

Paging @Black Crow, @LmL, @wolfmaid7, @Evolett, @alienarea, @Blazfemur, @Lord Martin, @Sly Wren and @J. Stargaryen. An eclectic group, no?

This is related to many of our past conversations. I hope you will check out the full version. 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Paging @Black Crow, @LmL, @wolfmaid7, @Evolett, @alienarea, @Blazfemur, @Lord Martin, @Sly Wren and @J. Stargaryen. An eclectic group, no?

This is related to many of our past conversations. I hope you will check out the full version. 

Haha.Just saw this.You know my thinking on this.Your inhuman Others will turn out to be what they've always been.....Greenseers.

[hiemal]

"The Others are terraforming, reforging the land with Cold, the way Men had reforged it with Fire. But rather than save the trees, they are cancerous, and petrify them."

I think you are spot on with this one.

"What if, when the First Men exerted their Force on weirwoods (cutting down their faces and giving them to the fire), the weirwoods exerted an equal and opposite Force upon the First Men in kind?"

This is is probably the best expression of something that's been I've pondering for a while (kudos!) because it highlights the non-Newtonian nature of the weirwoods- the weirnet's equal-and-opposite force is not bound by time and space in the traditional, newtonian sense as it's human aggressors (and probably at least to some extant their CotF allies?). And to what extant is that reaction influenced by the First Men's pacts, one wonders?

Great stuff, and very thorough!

[Sly Wren]

15 hours ago, Voice said:

Paging @Black Crow, @LmL, @wolfmaid7, @Evolett, @alienarea, @Blazfemur, @Lord Martin, @Sly Wren and @J. Stargaryen. An eclectic group, no?

This is related to many of our past conversations. I hope you will check out the full version. 

I just left you a message on the full version.

12 hours ago, hiemal said:

"What if, when the First Men exerted their Force on weirwoods (cutting down their faces and giving them to the fire), the weirwoods exerted an equal and opposite Force upon the First Men in kind?"

This is is probably the best expression of something that's been I've pondering for a while (kudos!) because it highlights the non-Newtonian nature of the weirwoods- the weirnet's equal-and-opposite force is not bound by time and space in the traditional, newtonian sense as it's human aggressors (and probably at least to some extant their CotF allies?). And to what extant is that reaction influenced by the First Men's pacts, one wonders?

I could see this--perhaps the children made a "pact" with the humans to stop the humans from unleashing the misery that would kill them all.

And, as I've argued, the children seem likely to have taught the humans language. A song--words to unite the land and peoples against the Others. 

I'm guessing there's a chance the children couldn't stop the Others until either: the humans united with them. Or the humans were all gone.

But. . . . the comparison between the Others and the Ice Dragon is at least one thing that gives me pause: the ice dragon destroys. As do the fiery dragons. And although Dany only wakes her dragons after the right circumstances align, and does so to right a wrong--it's a human, sentient choice. Not just a law of physics.

The blood sacrifice connected to the Others, Craster's attitude--all of that make the Others sound as though they, too, are tied to sentient choice. Not just Newtonian reactions. 

Or, @Voice, are you asserting that the Others' and the dragons' parallels in the text don't connect to their. . . purpose and origin as being tied to will and choice of a sentient being?

[Black Crow]

Good to see a return to Westeros - and an interesting essay.

I am bound to say though that I still favour an uncomplicated approach.

As Voice rightly says GRRM does imply a hierarchy of demons up north, and drawing a distinction in the synopsis at least between Craster's boys and the "inhuman Others" and that while the two are as synonymous as a horse and carriage, they are also quite separate. This is also clear from GRRM's remark about Sam's pinking of Ser Puddles with a dragonglass dagger broke the magic holding him together, thus clearly conforming that the walkers are made, never born. This in turn completes the connection for if they are made then someone has to be making them and so we come to the "inhuman Others"

And there, I fear is where I must part company with much of what's written here, for do we then look for a hitherto faceless foe or do we look for existing protagonists closer to home, ie; the unspecific term "Others" is [in contrast to the "White Walkers/White Shadows" and the "Wights"] being used to conceal their true identity, which as most or all of you know I believe the "inhuman Others" to be those "inhuman allies" of some of the early kings - the three-fingered tree-huggers.

[Voice]

On April 20, 2016 at 5:51 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Haha.Just saw this.You know my thinking on this.Your inhuman Others will turn out to be what they've always been.....Greenseers.

Thanks for commenting Wolfmaid, but I definitely think you did not read my theory. LOL

[Voice]

On April 20, 2016 at 6:58 PM, hiemal said:

"The Others are terraforming, reforging the land with Cold, the way Men had reforged it with Fire. But rather than save the trees, they are cancerous, and petrify them."

I think you are spot on with this one.

 

Thanks! And thank you for reading the full version.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 6:58 PM, hiemal said:

"What if, when the First Men exerted their Force on weirwoods (cutting down their faces and giving them to the fire), the weirwoods exerted an equal and opposite Force upon the First Men in kind?"

This is is probably the best expression of something that's been I've pondering for a while (kudos!) because it highlights the non-Newtonian nature of the weirwoods- the weirnet's equal-and-opposite force is not bound by time and space in the traditional, newtonian sense as it's human aggressors (and probably at least to some extant their CotF allies?).

Awesome, thanks again! And yes, you're definitely seeing what I'm seeing. 

Newtonian dynamics worked great for a very long time... back when mass was just mass. 

Then along came a little patent clerk with crazy hair and fundamentally altered our sense of mass. Mass is energy (at least, after being multiplied by the speed of light, squared), and one does not mess with mass without creating energy. In reverse, energy might yield mass. 

Hence, the Others. And the waking realization that these trees were not like other trees. Might not be a good idea to mess with trees that store energy (memory) in their mass. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 6:58 PM, hiemal said:

And to what extant is that reaction influenced by the First Men's pacts, one wonders?

Honestly, I don't think the Pact matters at all. Don't get me wrong, it's crazy important and momentous in terms of First Men history, and religious adaptation. 

But by the time of the Pact, the damage had already been done. The miasma had already been created. And the First Men learned to respect the trees only after several millennia and countless generations of defilement. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 6:58 PM, hiemal said:

Great stuff, and very thorough!

Thanks a lot, very much appreciated.

[Voice]

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

I just left you a message on the full version.

Thank you

I'm glad we can break quotes up here now more easily, but I couldn't add all the gifs and videos here. I don't think we can add pics either.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

I could see this--perhaps the children made a "pact" with the humans to stop the humans from unleashing the misery that would kill them all.

I have a feeling the Pact was the result of much lobbying to that very end. Too bad it took humans so many years to hear the voice of reason. sigh...

I believe the children only began to fight back against the diaspora of First Men due to the defilement of the weirwoods. Without that, they would have likely been too fatalistic to act. But the destruction of the very heart of the continent forced them to turn their hunting tools into weapons of war.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

And, as I've argued, the children seem likely to have taught the humans language. A song--words to unite the land and peoples against the Others. 

Only one man has ever been said to have learned their language. He was the first builder. Laid the first stone of Winterfell. Was the last (13th) hero who survived his dozen companions, leaving him Lord Commander. While building the Wall, he glimpsed a woman with skin like the moon and eyes like blue stars. As he gave her his soul and his seed, he underwent a transformation... ensnaring his brothers with strange sorceries, making sacrifices to the Others, becoming a man like any other by day, but reigning in the darkness of the Nightfort as Night's King. 

It seems to me that he's used the language of the cotf for ill 'n pain. King's Justice.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

 

I'll check out that thread here. I'm still  over the fact that I skipped the horn as a nonliteral archetype. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

I'm guessing there's a chance the children couldn't stop the Others until either: the humans united with them. Or the humans were all gone.

Hmm. I don't think the children bear any means of stopping the Others. If they had any power over their activity, I would think they would have used the Others to gain something. Instead, they have lost everything, and are fading into the pages of history. 

The Others are man's problem, and only man can provide the catharsis that ends the miasma.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

But. . . . the comparison between the Others and the Ice Dragon is at least one thing that gives me pause: the ice dragon destroys. As do the fiery dragons. And although Dany only wakes her dragons after the right circumstances align, and does so to right a wrong--it's a human, sentient choice. Not just a law of physics.

I do not mean to suggest it is "just" a law of physics that has given rise to their existence. That is but one way, I believe, in which Martin has made their rise a bit more plausible. Far more important than the conservation of energy is the Classical Greek concept of Miasma. Miasmas were often created by the defilement of forests. And, as in ASOIAF, they led to intergenerational catastrophe that always returned in spite of (and often made worse by) the efforts of men to end them.

So, a bit of Newton for plausibility, but Newton made fantastical by ancient Greek religious beliefs. 

Dany's dragons are a point in favor of my theory, actually. There was no non-human humanoid race that assisted Dany in her dragon-hatching/taming, or that made her do it. It was all her. A human endeavor. 

I believe the same is true for the Others. 

The Others are exactly like men in all but substance. Rather than warmed carbon, they are frozen ice. We are invigorated by thermodynamics. The Others are invigorated by Martin's reversal of that natural process. Rather than an active cycling of heat, the Others posess an active cycling of coldness. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

The blood sacrifice connected to the Others, Craster's attitude--all of that make the Others sound as though they, too, are tied to sentient choice. Not just Newtonian reactions. 

Completely agree. But in Martin's world, it seems he has given Newtonian reactions sentience. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Sly Wren said:

Or, @Voice, are you asserting that the Others' and the dragons' parallels in the text don't connect to their. . . purpose and origin as being tied to will and choice of a sentient being?

Not at all. In fact, I think the purpose and origin of the Others is all tied to man... and man is certainly sentient. 

But I think Martin has allowed for enough ambiguity to make us wonder if these are manifestations of the gods, while at the same time, questioning if there even are gods. Thus, separating such catastrophic threats from actions of sentient beings like humans, or attributing them to the actions of sentient beings like gods or even cotf, becomes increasingly difficult. Martin plays with these questions in a lot of his sci fi works as well.

He is well versed in adding paranormal and extraordinary elements to natural and physical laws and forces. Sentience and Consciousness are perhaps his favorite area to flex his erudition. When he writes, he is incredibly good at making us conceptualize, and at times even experience, alternative and unnatural forms of sentience and consciousness. 

He's borrowed from the social sciences as much as he's borrowed from history and natural science, and blended them together to create experiences that are at once completely fantastical, yet completely realistic.

I think "miasma" is the key that unlocks his matrix. 

[Voice]

On April 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Black Crow said:

Good to see a return to Westeros - and an interesting essay.

 A clink of pints my friend. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Black Crow said:

I am bound to say though that I still favour an uncomplicated approach.

I thought it was uncomplicated. No? 

Or are you accusing me of making esoteric comparisons? I cry Pax. LOL

 

On April 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Black Crow said:

As Voice rightly says GRRM does imply a hierarchy of demons up north, and drawing a distinction in the synopsis at least between Craster's boys and the "inhuman Others" and that while the two are as synonymous as a horse and carriage, they are also quite separate.

Whaaa..?

When did you join #TeamHierarchy BC? 

Welcome to the brotherhood of lordlings who querulously correct their wetnurses.

 

On April 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Black Crow said:

This is also clear from GRRM's remark about Sam's pinking of Ser Puddles with a dragonglass dagger broke the magic holding him together, thus clearly conforming that the walkers are made, never born. This in turn completes the connection for if they are made then someone has to be making them and so we come to the "inhuman Others"

Yup. I tried telling everybody long before GRRM let that nugget slip. But I guess I can understand if people don't take my word for it. I'm but one voice. 

 

On April 20, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Black Crow said:

And there, I fear is where I must part company with much of what's written here, for do we then look for a hitherto faceless foe or do we look for existing protagonists closer to home, ie; the unspecific term "Others" is [in contrast to the "White Walkers/White Shadows" and the "Wights"] being used to conceal their true identity, which as most or all of you know I believe the "inhuman Others" to be those "inhuman allies" of some of the early kings - the three-fingered tree-huggers.

A departure of company indeed, though not so distant as you might think... your critique makes me think you did not peruse the full version, and instead are only commenting on the teaser above.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Voice said:

A departure of company indeed, though not so distant as you might think... your critique makes me think you did not peruse the full version, and instead are only commenting on the teaser above.

Time my friend, too many threads, too many deadlines; not to mention working for a living, scouts, admin, housework, the kids, the dog and occasionally that rare and precious thing called sleep.

[alienarea]

I don't have time to read through your full theory, apologies. But what I have read skimming through it it is well thought but maybe to complicated. I don't think GRRM thought that deep  before writing.

For me it is rather simple: the greenseers of the CotF are tied to the weirwoods and are the        collective memory of the CotF (a lot like Avatar - maybe this is why the show doesn't dive into it?). When the First Men cut and burn the weirwoods, the greenseers  become free spirits, vengeful. As the CotF dabble in water magic they are able to call them when they create winter by magic.

What I'm undecided about is if there is a human twist related to the (ancient) Stark sacrificing the prisoner in Bran's vision. I wonder if something happened with the weirwoods when they tasted First Men blood, something neither CotF nor humans can understand and control - a different form of life by accident.

[Voice]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Time my friend, too many threads, too many deadlines; not to mention working for a living, scouts, admin, housework, the kids, the dog and occasionally that rare and precious thing called sleep.

Psh. On this side of the Wall, we don't need sleep.

 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

I don't have time to read through your full theory, apologies. But what I have read skimming through it it is well thought but maybe to complicated. I don't think GRRM thought that deep  before writing.

I call that a dangerous misunderestimation of our author... but do respect the criticism. 

Keep in mind this isn't GRRM's first rodeo, and he is not known for *simple* storylines. His works are riddled with such miasmas, and these concepts are not at all complicated for him. They are his favorite toys. 

 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

For me it is rather simple: the greenseers of the CotF are tied to the weirwoods and are the        collective memory of the CotF (a lot like Avatar - maybe this is why the show doesn't dive into it?).

Avatar is also a borrowing of the Classical Greek motif of sacred groves defiled by man, so I certainly agree. 

Though, we know it is not only cotf who have their memories collected in the trees.

Still, I think we see them quite similarly.

 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

When the First Men cut and burn the weirwoods, the greenseers  become free spirits, vengeful.

But that's just it, the cotf are not particularly vengeful. Bran notes this difference between them and mankind. 

The Others are the very embodiment of traits so perfectly exemplified by men: mocking weaker foes, implacability, hatred, vengeance. These are not traits that seem applicable at all to Greenseers. And if anything, the cotf seem too fatalistic for such a role. 

 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

As the CotF dabble in water magic they are able to call them when they create winter by magic.

I'd argue the cotf dabble in earth (carbon) alone, not water. 

Water is the domain of Rhoynar Magic.

 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

What I'm undecided about is if there is a human twist related to the (ancient) Stark sacrificing the prisoner in Bran's vision. I wonder if something happened with the weirwoods when they tasted First Men blood, something neither CotF nor humans can understand and control - a different form of life by accident.

Precisely my thinking. 

Accidental transgressions are the most common causes of miasma. And, we know Essos is particularly nonchalant about blood-letting. I contend that weirwoods are the trees of life, and that they are nourished by natural death. They root in bone and blood (crypts). 

But, the First Men replaced that natural symbiosis with a hateful one. Thus, a new hateful counter was required to balance it. That's the very definition of miasma. 

[alienarea]

22 minutes ago, Voice said:

Psh. On this side of the Wall, we don't need sleep.

 

I call that a dangerous misunderestimation of our author... but do respect the criticism. 

Keep in mind this isn't GRRM's first rodeo, and he is not known for *simple* storylines. His works are riddled with such miasmas, and these concepts are not at all complicated for him. They are his favorite toys. 

 

Avatar is also a borrowing of the Classical Greek motif of sacred groves defiled by man, so I certainly agree. 

Though, we know it is not only cotf who have their memories collected in the trees.

Still, I think we see them quite similarly.

 

But that's just it, the cotf are not particularly vengeful. Bran notes this difference between them and mankind. 

The Others are the very embodiment of traits so perfectly exemplified by men: mocking weaker foes, implacability, hatred, vengeance. These are not traits that seem applicable at all to Greenseers. And if anything, the cotf seem too fatalistic for such a role. 

 

I'd argue the cotf dabble in earth (carbon) alone, not water. 

Water is the domain of Rhoynar Magic.

 

Precisely my thinking. 

Accidental transgressions are the most common causes of miasma. And, we know Essos is particularly nonchalant about blood-letting. I contend that weirwoods are the trees of life, and that they are nourished by natural death. They root in bone and blood (crypts). 

But, the First Men replaced that natural symbiosis with a hateful one. Thus, a new hateful counter was required to balance it. That's the very definition of miasma. 

Guess I have to read your theory in detail. Will do. 

[Sly Wren]

17 hours ago, Voice said:

Thank you

I'm glad we can break quotes up here now more easily, but I couldn't add all the gifs and videos here. I don't think we can add pics either.

So, you don't feel like trying to re-create your drawings with punctuation emojis?

17 hours ago, Voice said:

I believe the children only began to fight back against the diaspora of First Men due to the defilement of the weirwoods. Without that, they would have likely been too fatalistic to act. But the destruction of the very heart of the continent forced them to turn their hunting tools into weapons of war.

Agreed--though that would also fit with their creating a super-weapon . . .

17 hours ago, Voice said:

It seems to me that he's used the language of the cotf for ill 'n pain. King's Justice.

Agreed--and at that point, the Stark in Winterfell was in line enough to know to throw down such a man.

17 hours ago, Voice said:

Hmm. I don't think the children bear any means of stopping the Others. If they had any power over their activity, I would think they would have used the Others to gain something. Instead, they have lost everything, and are fading into the pages of history. 

The Others are man's problem, and only man can provide the catharsis that ends the miasma.

But they taught a language. And if I'm right (always a risky assertion), that language was used to unify the land and turn the tide against the Others. 

They didn't have to teach Brandon or anyone else that language. Or tell him how to use it. But they did. And somehow, the tide was turned. Which means . . . the children had power over the situation.

17 hours ago, Voice said:

Dany's dragons are a point in favor of my theory, actually. There was no non-human humanoid race that assisted Dany in her dragon-hatching/taming, or that made her do it. It was all her. A human endeavor. 

I believe the same is true for the Others. 

But. . . Dany actively raises the dragons. She doesn't do stuff and then have . . . dragon-pox as an immune response.

So, if they are parallel, then some sentient, humanoid being raised the Others. And not by accident or forgetting. Dany raises the dragons because she remembers. She "just knows" how to raise them.

17 hours ago, Voice said:

The Others are exactly like men in all but substance. Rather than warmed carbon, they are frozen ice. We are invigorated by thermodynamics. The Others are invigorated by Martin's reversal of that natural process. Rather than an active cycling of heat, the Others posess an active cycling of coldness. 

I've said this elsewhere, so I'll understand if you don't want to respond here--but, again: that makes them perfect weapons  for the children to use against the men they can't fight themselves.

Just like dragons are (once they grow) potentially very powerful weapons for a girl with few resources to wield against those who have wronged her, but she cannot fight on her own.

17 hours ago, Voice said:

He's borrowed from the social sciences as much as he's borrowed from history and natural science, and blended them together to create experiences that are at once completely fantastical, yet completely realistic.

I think "miasma" is the key that unlocks his matrix. 

I think the miasma is possible. But I can't see how the way it is used in the novels in any way excludes sentient action raising Others. Martin has nuclear dragons. And nuclear Others. And both are chosen, crafted weapons. . . I think.

[Voice]

On 4/24/2016 at 2:50 PM, alienarea said:

Guess I have to read your theory in detail. Will do. 

Very cool. Join the Hearth while you're at it if you like. Much easier to comment there tbh, but I value your thoughts either way.

I can't believe you guessed where I was going with the Ned killing the SotM in Ice=Dawn. You have no idea how careful I've been to not say too much too soon on this stuff, and that was supposed to be the big takeaway from the followup to this theory. I tip my hat to you.

In fact, consider it permanently tipped.

No, bugger that. Take the hat. It's yours.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

So, you don't feel like trying to re-create your drawings with punctuation emojis?

LOL! A project for the knights of summer, m'lady.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though that would also fit with their creating a super-weapon . . .

Not really. Fatalists leave stuff to fate. They don't start Manhattan Projects.

Still, I don't disagree completely. I cannot disprove the notion that the cotf created them. I can only mention reasons why I find it unlikely.

...reasons like...

1. the cotf do not wield ice magic
2. the cotf do not forge swords
3. the cotf do not forge armor
4. the cotf do not control cold winds
5. the cotf do not ride mounts
6. the cotf are only now found in the frozen tundra, they used to live in the green lands
7. the cotf had enjoyed 4000 years of peace and friendship with Men before the Others came for the first time
8. the cotf would doom the very trees they love with such creatures

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--and at that point, the Stark in Winterfell was in line enough to know to throw down such a man.

Mayhaps. I'm thinking Night's King learned their tongue alone. Back when he was known as the Last Hero.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

But they taught a language. And if I'm right (always a risky assertion), that language was used to unify the land and turn the tide against the Others. 

They didn't have to teach Brandon or anyone else that language. Or tell him how to use it. But they did. And somehow, the tide was turned. Which means . . . the children had power over the situation.

Ah I see your point. A few issues arise.

The cotf only ever aided one, single man, during the Long Night in the fight against the Others. That was the Last Hero.

A more-accurate name for him would have been the 13th Hero, as he was the last of a dozen companions. I name him Brandon the Builder, but the novels do not. The worldbook states that Brandon the Builder sought aid from the cotf, and learned their language. So I think that supports my hypothesis that BtB and the LH are one and the same.

Night's King is but one more step. Another 13th Man, who just happened to be involved in the fight against the Others.

Anyway, back on topic. That language was not used to unify. If the Last Hero is Night's King, we know what he did with that gift...

Quote

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

That might be a brand of unity, but it isn't the sort that people enjoy.

And hey, wait a minute... If you think the cotf are making nukes, why would you think their language was a gift of unification??

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

But. . . Dany actively raises the dragons. She doesn't do stuff and then have . . . dragon-pox as an immune response.

Umm, did you by chance see Dany's son?

Tis a common affliction, if your last name is Targaryen. Not so much for other houses. Sitting on a nest of dragon eggs is not without consequence.

 

Then there's greyscale. Garin's curse upon the dragonlords. The biological Doom of Valyria.

Book-Jon Connington is ready to give it to Dany (show-Jorah is too). Time will tell.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

So, if they are parallel, then some sentient, humanoid being raised the Others. And not by accident or forgetting. Dany raises the dragons because she remembers. She "just knows" how to raise them.

Umm, no. Dany is not a non-human humanoid race. She's a human. Same for the Others. Humans are their cause.

Dany had no divine hobbit intervention. Neither did men. Men lit the trees on fire. Dany walked into the flames.

No little faeries made them do it.

Dany doesn't remember. She operates on pure instinct. If she looks back, she is lost.

 

If instead of the cotf, you mean that Men were the sentient humanoids raising the Others, then yes, I agree.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

I've said this elsewhere, so I'll understand if you don't want to respond here--but, again: that makes them perfect weapons  for the children to use against the men they can't fight themselves.

My answer from elsewhere:

I agree they are perfectly adapted to eradicate people. But "weapons" are not the only things that eradicate harmful forms of life... like Bran, we have to get into the minds of trees, and see what sort of defense mechanisms they might understand.

• an·ti·bod·y
  noun
  a blood protein produced in response to and counteracting a specific antigen. Antibodies combine chemically with substances that the body recognizes as alien, such as bacteria, viruses, and foreign substances in the blood.

What do the Others counteract? With whom do the Others combine?

They counteract us. They combine with us.

 

&:

Your "perfect weapon" is my "antibody." There is little difference between the two. The only area of disagreement I see is that you seem to forget that the Children can and did take on the man-foe themselves. They even got men to agree to terms, hence the Pact.

The cotf suffered greater losses, but many men died as well. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the cotf were bullied and needed big brothers to come fight their fight for them. Yet, their big brothers did not show up until after four thousand years of peace and friendship with the bullies....? It doesn't make sense.

This is why I believe something else is behind the miasma.

Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood...

The Others are a Miasma for Man, but began as antibodies to protect the Heart of Westeros.
 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

Just like dragons are (once they grow) potentially very powerful weapons for a girl with few resources to wield against those who have wronged her, but she cannot fight on her own.

Ah yes. Swap "the girl" for "the trees" and we are saying much the same thing in terms of the Others.

The children of the forest were not actual children. And unlike the trees, the cotf were not helpless. They fought the First Men,killed many, and eventually forced men to forge the Pact. 

There spans 4000 years of peace and friendship, between the Pact and the coming of the Others... it makes no sense for the cotf to nuke mankind only after they had gotten their way for 4000 years, instead of doing it when they were actually fighting.

 

On 4/25/2016 at 5:08 PM, Sly Wren said:

I think the miasma is possible. But I can't see how the way it is used in the novels in any way excludes sentient action raising Others. Martin has nuclear dragons. And nuclear Others. And both are chosen, crafted weapons. . . I think.

I've never excluded sentience Sly Wren. Far from it. I'm not sure where you've gotten that impression. The OP is all about Martin turning these laws of physics and medical theories into miasmatic manifestations of "old gods"... arcane sentience itself ...

When the Old Gods of Greece were trespassed (and their sacred groves defiled), a miasma ensued. This miasma created intergenerational catastrophe that would always return in spite of the efforts of men. Often, mankind's efforts only made the miasma worse. Sentience.

Miasma later became a medical theory that lasted throughout the dark ages to explain community catastrophes known as disease... It was a theory that explained diseases and plagues in a community, and attributed them to "bad air" ("malaria") and evil odors in the air. That theory was only ended after the groundbreaking work of one John Snow... the real one. 

Men are sentient Sly Wren. But so are weirwoods. Or, at least, weirwoods thrive in and connect to sentience. I've long held that Martin's ASOIAF "Old Gods" are simply "sentience."

Yes, I see the Others as an antibody for the human antigen (wights are proof of this). But even the Others quite sentient (well, I'd actually argue wights are not sentient, and are instead the safely nullified humans, deprived of individual consciousness, and instead controlled by a hive mind consciousness).

I think you must've focused on the science-y stuff and missed the Greek stuff it is based upon (Part V and VI). Classical Greek Miasma is a product of sentient old gods, often protecting sacred trees. George has married the scientific, medical and mythological concepts of Miasma into one.

[Sly Wren]

8 hours ago, Voice said:

..reasons like...

1. the cotf do not wield ice magic
2. the cotf do not forge swords
3. the cotf do not forge armor
4. the cotf do not control cold winds
5. the cotf do not ride mounts

But: Bran does not have 4 legs--unless he skin changes Summer. Etc.

We've seen fighters/people/the injured makes use of the world around them, change it to fight for them or with them throughout the novels.

So. . . why not the children?

8 hours ago, Voice said:

• the cotf are only now found in the frozen tundra, they used to live in the green lands
• the cotf had enjoyed 4000 years of peace and friendship with Men before the Others came for the first time
• the cotf would doom the very trees they love with such creatures

I agree that we don't know how all of the timelines work. But we know that the children did fight.

And the weirwoods made it through the first long night.

8 hours ago, Voice said:

That might be a brand of unity, but it isn't the sort that people enjoy.

And hey, wait a minute... If you think the cotf are making nukes, why would you think their language was a gift of unification??

HA! My point was that the power to unite the land an nature in one person could be misused. Nukes are arguable a misuse of science and knowledge. 

We only have traces, but we are told that whatever the children did, the Last Hero was able to turn the tied. I think that "oath" was a bi part of it. Language and unity. But then. . . if you are right, the Last Hero used that knowledge and went mad with power. 

If he could do it, why not the children?

8 hours ago, Voice said:

Tis a common affliction, if your last name is Targaryen. Not so much for other houses. Sitting on a nest of dragon eggs is not without consequence.

 

Then there's greyscale. Garin's curse upon the dragonlords. The biological Doom of Valyria.

Book-Jon Connington is ready to give it to Dany (show-Jorah is too). Time will tell.

Fair point, ser. But there's a BIG difference between long night and others and specific disease striking individual humans. 

Unless you re saying that the Others are humans who caught. . . cold scale???

8 hours ago, Voice said:

If instead of the cotf, you mean that Men were the sentient humanoids raising the Others, then yes, I agree.

No, I just mean that "children are people to!" That should go on a hat.

And, like all peoples, they have intent. We know they fought--no reason to doubt it. So. . . the idea that they don't have intent to fight back doesn't hold. Not until we see more of them. 

8 hours ago, Voice said:

Your "perfect weapon" is my "antibody." There is little difference between the two. The only area of disagreement I see is that you seem to forget that the Children can and did take on the man-foe themselves. They even got men to agree to terms, hence the Pact.

The cotf suffered greater losses, but many men died as well. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the cotf were bullied and needed big brothers to come fight their fight for them. Yet, their big brothers did not show up until after four thousand years of peace and friendship with the bullies....? It doesn't make sense.

This is why I believe something else is behind the miasma.

Oh, I agree that the gap between the bullying and the show up needs explaining.

I'm thinking the explanation may very well be Bloodraven--a human greenseer, more powerful than the children, working with them. He's the battery in the cold factory--I think.

And the children haven't had lots of peace and friendship with the bullies--they've been hiding. Less "peace" and more "keeping out of harm's way."

8 hours ago, Voice said:

And unlike the trees, the cotf were not helpless. They fought the First Men,killed many, and eventually forced men to forge the Pact. 

There spans 4000 years of peace and friendship, between the Pact and the coming of the Others... it makes no sense for the cotf to nuke mankind only after they had gotten their way for 4000 years, instead of doing it when they were actually fighting.

Or. . . they found that with a human greenseer they could do more than just forge a pact. 

8 hours ago, Voice said:

Men are sentient Sly Wren. But so are weirwoods. Or, at least, weirwoods thrive in and connect to sentience. I've long held that Martin's ASOIAF "Old Gods" are simply "sentience."

Agreed--but the trees' eyes are carved. Seen out of by those who enter the roots. The trees are thus also a conduit for sentient beings.--like humans and children. 

Just like someone or something looks out of the wights' eyes, someone or something looks out of the trees--we've seen Bran with the trees (I'm thinking we may see Bran see via a wight as well). 

And, like the humans, children are also sentient and engaged with the trees.

So, I'm guessing my question is with why exclude the children whom we know fight, use magic, and make weapons--like humans who fight, use magic, and make weapons--and instead insist on the continent and the trees. . . which we have not see make weapons, only be used as weapons (weirwood arrows, etc.)?

8 hours ago, Voice said:

I think you must've focused on the science-y stuff and missed the Greek stuff it is based upon (Part V and VI). Classical Greek Miasma is a product of sentient old gods, often protecting sacred trees. George has married the scientific, medical and mythological concepts of Miasma into one.

No, I do get that. Promise. I'm just thinking that the old gods (consciousness of the weirwoods) got help with their cold wind. From human and children greenseers. So far, if there are fighters and weapons, there are people (human or otherwise) who sent them/came with them. They don't just spontaneously rise up and fight because something must be fought. 

So far, at least. Though this opinion is subject to amendment.

[Voice]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Oh, I agree that the gap between the bullying and the show up needs explaining.

I'm thinking the explanation may very well be Bloodraven--a human greenseer, more powerful than the children, working with them. He's the battery in the cold factory--I think.

And the children haven't had lots of peace and friendship with the bullies--they've been hiding. Less "peace" and more "keeping out of harm's way."

No time today...but quickly... I was talking about the span of time between The Pact and the coming of the Others the first time... in the first Long Night... not this one. Before the Others came for the first time, cotf and Man had enjoyed 4000 years of peace and friendship. Then the Long Night happened. (The first one, not this one.)

[Voice]

Double

[Voice]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said: