[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Davros Seaworth said:

Oh, I'm much more interested in Winds of Winter, and I like Black Sails too, though here in the UK I've only seen the first 2 seasons, and thanks to tennis, I've missed episode 9 and it looks like a lot of good stuff happened there.

I was asking as in earlier episodes there was such much ranting and now, I know what you mean, there's no logic in the show things just sort of happen, or sometimes don't happen at all. I am just so disappointed still since it started out so good.

Bought the DVDs of the first two seasons and watched S3 via youtube where the uploader put a filter on it to make the images bad lighting or a glare and thus of lower quality (I'm in Belgium and have no IPad). And to make that comment an on topic comparison: I'd rather re-watch worse quality images with awesome story as that of Black Sails S3 (until I can watch the best quality version on TV) THAN watch beautifully shot but a non-story of pasted clips to make an episode of GOT at the moment. 

I understand the disappointment. When I initially watched the first half of S5 of GOT (which jumped the shark for me with Brienne going around Moat Cailin) I was still emotionally willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, even though I knew where they were going with Sansa. But it became more and more unbereable to watch and I couldn't make the effort anymore, like now, to watch full episodes instead of clips afterwards. And then I watched all of S5 by fall as full episodes on TV when it was aired here, and by then I was angry and already accepted it was a trainwreck. Besides, I had made a tremendous amount of analysis of the books and George's writing style that only widened the gap. So, when I started to watch S6, a year after the disastrous S5, I wasn't even disappointed anymore and I can't even give them a pinky of benefot of doubt.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Davros Seaworth said:

You met GRRM? Oh, was it good?

He is amazing. He is full of energy and smart as a tack. His knowledge of history and the literary world (including comics) is astounding. And he told us the story of how "he rose from ashes" type thing and you could see where the Daenerys story line came from 

Even when he talked about issues or events that he doesn't like and he became angry, he was still very intelligent and well spoken. 

Sorry, to stay on topic, there is a marked difference in the show when it is written by people with no connection to struggle compared to the grit and heart of the creator. That is why so much if it is disjointed and rant worthy. 

[Toth]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Fully agreed. Sex, violence, horror can be ok if it is an organic part of the story. It is gratuis when the story is shoehorned in such a way to show shocking imagery.

Yeah. Shock for the shock's sake, that's what the show is running on. And the villains get rewarded for everything due to this constant lack of consequences! Yay for revenge! Yay for kinslaying! Nothing will have any repercussions whatsoever.

Take for example these two clips from Fate/Zero. The first one is an insanely cruel twist that I consider similarly depressing as the Red Wedding:

https://youtu.be/Jqz6fx1zob4?t=1m46s

Taken outside of context, it looks like nothing more like an extremely superbly scripted massacre that punches you in the gut hard. Especially considering that we have followed the part of Diarmiud, Kayneth and Sola-ui from the very beginning and have learned to know them as very multi-layered characters. This resolution to their tragedy comes down hard.

But it doesn't stop there. It is immediately followed up by the following discussion about violence as a means to an end. A discussion in which Kerry's action is thoroughly deconstructed and their relationship finally falls apart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wyk5tGYTjY

And despite neither of them is framed like they are right, it doesn't just drop the matter like GoT did. Imagine similar discussions after the Red Wedding in GoT. The horror and disgust of honorable Saber is awfully similar to the condemnation of the Freys in the books. But of course, in GoT the North needs to be reminded...

There are both immediate and long-term consequences of drastic actions. I can see how D&D would love to portray Kiritsugu as Lawful Neutral if they ever get their fingers on Fate/Zero. But doesn't change the fact that he is a hypocritical anti-hero who justifies his atrocities with nihilism in a way not unlike a certain other 'Lawful Neutral' we know.

[Davros Seaworth]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

He is amazing. He is full of energy and smart as a tack. His knowledge of history and the literary world (including comics) is astounding. And he told us the story of how "he rose from ashes" type thing and you could see where the Daenerys story line came from 

Even when he talked about issues or events that he doesn't like and he became angry, he was still very intelligent and well spoken. 

Oh good, I'm glad you had a great time. Wish I could meet him, he sounds very interesting.

 

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Bought the DVDs of the first two seasons and watched S3 via youtube where the uploader put a filter on it to make the images bad lighting or a glare and thus of lower quality (I'm in Belgium and have no IPad). And to make that comment an on topic comparison: I'd rather re-watch worse quality images with awesome story as that of Black Sails S3 (until I can watch the best quality version on TV) THAN watch beautifully shot but a non-story of pasted clips to make an episode of GOT at the moment. 

I understand the disappointment. When I initially watched the first half of S5 of GOT (which jumped the shark for me with Brienne going around Moat Cailin) I was still emotionally willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, even though I knew where they were going with Sansa. But it became more and more unbereable to watch and I couldn't make the effort anymore, like now, to watch full episodes instead of clips afterwards. And then I watched all of S5 by fall as full episodes on TV when it was aired here, and by then I was angry and already accepted it was a trainwreck. Besides, I had made a tremendous amount of analysis of the books and George's writing style that only widened the gap. So, when I started to watch S6, a year after the disastrous S5, I wasn't even disappointed anymore and I can't even give them a pinky of benefot of doubt.

I see, I've started seeing some of the 'characters' on this years GoT as walking props, to be fair I started to get disappointing with the show in Season 3 after I read the books, but there was still stuff in there. Now its like its not even the same show anymore, but since the GoT still ends up on the Skybox anyway as my dad also watches, and since we only have a few chapters of WoW, I keep watching and keep getting disappointed. 

[sweetsunray]

31 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm glad you mentioned the compare/contrast to other tv shows and Hollywood. 

Not to sound braggish, but last Monday I was at a small coffee talk with GRRM and about eight other people and GRRM made a point to say (and demonstrate) how what certain shows and Hollywood depict as battle fights and violence is ridiculous compared to how it would be in reality. 

Now compare a story written by someone with a historical background or other real world experiences to financially privileged people that just started writing scripts and you can see how shows like the Sopranos is superior to GoT. 

In one you can fully immerse yourself in the story and get attached compared to the other where every new scene brings on a slew of questions that confuse enough viewers that they have to start breads to get help figuring it out. 

Exactly: fighting is dirty... even if you have the high ground. And no, I don't mean HR sticking a knife through two-sword wielding Arthur Dayne. It's grabbing a rope and trying to strangle your opponent, or having no more gunpowder and grab a stick to beat the hell out of him. It's not just emotionally and mentally hard to kill someone - it's physically hard. George writes his fights in this manner. Screenwriters of other shows write their fights and battles in this manner. And people don't just stand around. They fight back in every way they can, mentally, emotionally and physically.

If you former lover's going to kill your father, even if that father was a prick, you're going to want them dead, period. There's no recuperating from that. There's no kiss-and-make-up from that. But GOT shows some shocking reveal or event (from Jon's resurrection to CoTF creating the WW, and so many more things), and at the most they have someone show response to it for one scene, and then it's dropped and forgotten about. It's as if the characters have no inner life, no actual emotions; they just pretend for a scene that they have an emotional reaction to what has happened, but then forgot about it instantly. That's not real, not realistic (unless you're a psychopath). The characters are props. I can't connect with props. I can't care for props.

And another way in how GOT differs greatly to other shows when it comes to shocking deaths... In other shows that shocking death makes and drives the story. GOT only did that with Ned's death. Ned's death drove the story for the first few seasons. It is his death that actually BEGINS the story. But since then, including the RW, they used shocking deaths to END a story, instead of beginning or continuing it. They use deaths to wrap up storylines. While it does end the story of that particular dead character, it should impact the story of the people connected to it. But it doesn't. And since I'm in Black Sails mode - they use every death to keep telling story, not end it.

[LadySoftheart]

3 hours ago, TepidHands said:

Jaime losing his hand in ASoS affects him and others in almost every scene  in the subsequent books. 

<snip>

I was going to mention this too - the loss of Jaime's hand causes him to question his very identity, and symbolically gives him the opportunity to choose a new one, rather than being trapped in his roles of "Kingslayer" and "Cersei's lover." It is a huge turning point for his character: he begins to think about truth and lies, masks and true faces, and what he, Jaime, wants to become (not Tywin's son, not Cersei's lover, not the Kingslayer). Whether or not he can achieve his own goals is questionable, but it is certainly something worth trying for him. And there are ripple effects of his actions that touch other characters as well. (So far, Jaime has been a catalyst for the story twice - killing Aerys before the saga began and crippling Bran in the first book were both events that set many other stories in motion - so I think his rejection of Cersei and whatever happens with him and Brienne in WoW may serve as another catalyst.) 

The show completely ignores both the inward and outward consequences of Jaime's maiming - we get absolutely no introspection from him, and no sense that he is in any way different from the man he was before he lost his hand. He even spouts Cersei's lines about Tywin's legacy and taking back what "belongs" to the Lannisters. Meanwhile, aside from one scene where Bronn sent him sprawling, it even seems like he's quite functional with his left hand, at least in that ludicrous fight in Dorne His inability to solve problems physically in the books galvanizes Jaime to find another path, but ... we haven't gotten any of that on the show. I'm not sanguine about the Blackfish confrontation that seems to be coming tonight either. I'm sure it will be a mess of other characters' motivations and butchered dialogue.

[Davros Seaworth]

1 minute ago, LadySoftheart said:

I was going to mention this too - the loss of Jaime's hand causes him to question his very identity, and symbolically gives him the opportunity to choose a new one, rather than being trapped in his roles of "Kingslayer" and "Cersei's lover" is a huge turning point for his character. He begins to think about truth and lies, masks and true faces, and there are ripple effects of his actions that touch other characters as well. (So far, Jaime has been a catalyst for the story twice - killing Aerys before the saga began and crippling Bran in the first book were both events that set many other stories in motion - so I think his rejection of Cersei and whatever happens with him and Brienne in WoW may serve as another catalyst.) 

The show completely ignores both the inward and outward consequences of Jaime's maiming - we get absolutely no introspection from him, and no sense that he is in any way different from the man he was before he lost his hand. He even spouts Cersei's lines about Tywin's legacy and taking back what "belongs" to the Lannisters. Meanwhile, aside from one scene where Bronn sent him sprawling, it even seems like he's quite functional with his left hand, at least in that ludicrous fight in Dorne His inability to solve problems physically in the books galvanizes Jaime to find another path, but ... we haven't gotten any of that on the show. I'm not sanguine about the Blackfish confrontation that seems to be coming tonight either. I'm sure it will be a mess of other characters' motivations and butchered dialogue.

It does the bold for everything in Season 6. No consequences at all. Unless you count teh consequences of the hypothetical butterflies GRRM was talking about ages ago.

[LadySoftheart]

1 minute ago, Davros Seaworth said:

It does the bold for everything in Season 6. No consequences at all. Unless you count teh consequences of the hypothetical butterflies GRRM was talking about ages ago.

Even the butterflies have no consequences: Myrcella is murdered in Dorne (as are Doran and Trystane) and Cersei doesn't even get angry; Shae supposedly loves Tyrion and cares about Sansa, but betrays them both without any explanation. For all that people insist "the books are not the show", the show seems to require knowledge of the books to have the plot make any sense, and frankly, no show, whether it's an adaptation or not, should rely on "Inside the Episode" and explanations by the audience of what has happened - it needs to happen ONSCREEN. So we are, I suppose, to assume that Jon and Sansa had serious talks about Jon's resurrection and Sansa's time with Ramsay - offscreen, of course - while onscreen they talk about ale and soup? Does Jaime know why Cersei was forced to do the Walk of Shame? Either he is so idiotic that he doesn't even ask, or he does know, because someone told him, but it happened offscreen instead of his being hit by the knowledge that he doesn't know his darling Cersei as well as he thought he did - but because the show wants them to be "a team", we never get to see that convo, if it ever happened in the first place. There are constant absurd timeline problems (e.g. with how the Sand Snakes got onto what I presume is Jaime's ship in time to kill Trystane) such as any time Littlefinger goes anywhere. Sansa and Pod and Brienne travel from just outside Winterfell to the Wall in such a short time that it makes the idea that Stannis's men were starving a day or two's journey from Castle Black such that Stannis felt compelled to kill his own daughter absolutely absurd. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 6/3/2016 at 7:19 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

It is a troubling pattern but I personally just see it as an element of their writing MO. They prefer to enhance dramatic conflict wherever and whenever they can, even if it makes no sense. The biggest problem I have with the Waif in the show is that by holding such grudges and personal dislike against Arya she is surely operating in opposition to the code of the HoBaW!

In so relishing the prospect of killing Arya, she is surely no better a servant of the HoBaW than is Arya!

exactly!  How can not-Jaqen sit there and tell Arya there is no revenge killing when Bobcut clearly wants to kill Arya for non-honorable reasons and she had previously made Not-Jaqen promise her she could do it?  Or he is running a long-con on both of them.......If that is the case then he is obviously a prophet just like Carol with her plot to get Maragery arrested. There are just too many hiddens and unknown x-men powers hidden on this show; teleportation, fireproof, telepathy, seeing the future, etc.

On 6/3/2016 at 7:37 AM, TepidHands said:

Some folks in the media are starting to notice the appallingly stupid pile of corpses:

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/game-thrones-season-6-deaths-did-show-run-out-money-or-something-531201

Good!!!

On 6/3/2016 at 5:01 PM, sweetsunray said:

I shamelessly recommend an essay of mine in that regard: Valkyrie for the FM. (see sig)

The books contain a lot of imagery as Arya being a cupbearer - to Jaquen, Rorge and Biter, then of course to Roose, then to the man of Pinkmaiden, Sandor as well as in the HoBaW. Her list and her 3 wishes in Harrenhal make her a "chooser of the slain", and having an intuitive knowledge of who's supposed to die and who isn't (her giving the cup of the poisoned well in the HoBaW to a man who's dying, while not consciously knowing it, while not knowing what's in the cup, and just having entered the house without guidance).

Then I go deeper into the FM lore: the pricing system (relative sacrifice), suggestiveness of the FM using pricing system to discourage greedy people from hiring them, while the pricing system for those seeking actual justice is a gift in disguise, and then finally calling back to the First. I even speculate that the First may have been a woman, and not a man. 

I am fairly certain that the kindly man and Jaquen recognized this intuitive insight of her regarding who's time is up, and whose isn't, and I speculate that they may have a prophecy regarding the First Returned or something, with Arya presumed to being the First Returned.

That's interesting (book-wise) never heard this before 

On 6/4/2016 at 0:23 PM, Tijgy said:

I will not be able to deal with another animal's death . I just stopped crying about Summer.

 Sandor will of course not be happy if something is going to happen to that horse

#Protect the Direwolves! #Protect Stranger! #Protect all the animals!

 

#nomoredeaddirewolves #stopwastingyourCGIbudget

5 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

I was going to mention this too - the loss of Jaime's hand causes him to question his very identity, and symbolically gives him the opportunity to choose a new one, rather than being trapped in his roles of "Kingslayer" and "Cersei's lover." It is a huge turning point for his character: he begins to think about truth and lies, masks and true faces, and what he, Jaime, wants to become (not Tywin's son, not Cersei's lover, not the Kingslayer). Whether or not he can achieve his own goals is questionable, but it is certainly something worth trying for him. And there are ripple effects of his actions that touch other characters as well. (So far, Jaime has been a catalyst for the story twice - killing Aerys before the saga began and crippling Bran in the first book were both events that set many other stories in motion - so I think his rejection of Cersei and whatever happens with him and Brienne in WoW may serve as another catalyst.) 

The show completely ignores both the inward and outward consequences of Jaime's maiming - we get absolutely no introspection from him, and no sense that he is in any way different from the man he was before he lost his hand. He even spouts Cersei's lines about Tywin's legacy and taking back what "belongs" to the Lannisters. Meanwhile, aside from one scene where Bronn sent him sprawling, it even seems like he's quite functional with his left hand, at least in that ludicrous fight in Dorne His inability to solve problems physically in the books galvanizes Jaime to find another path, but ... we haven't gotten any of that on the show. I'm not sanguine about the Blackfish confrontation that seems to be coming tonight either. I'm sure it will be a mess of other characters' motivations and butchered dialogue.

Bro! Totes agree with all this.  Larry  has not IIRC mentioned his missing hand once since his practice fighting with Bronn.  In the books it is a constant issue for Jaime, but Larry seems to have absolutely zero problems with it.  He did spill that one glass of wine last season with St. Tyrion but since then this guy has been handling it like a champ.  It's almost like he didn't lose his hand at all fam!!

 

 

Did anyone notice that Walder Frey seems 10 years younger than the last time we saw him?  He has more energy and is talking a bit faster and louder......wtf, this is stupid.

Also; How in the blue fuck is Dany going to get 1000 ships when she has zero right now? Euron going to build them all for her on his tree-less islands by tonights episode?  Pretty sure the ironborn 'do not sow', therefore they dont know how to build fucking ships from scratch, they know how to steal ship.

And someone upthread was saying that the show has been moving slowly this season and it so obviously hilarious why that is; they thought they could do a better job than GRRM with the FFC and DwD storylines---clearly they were extremely mistaken.  SO they ran through ffc and dwd so fast that they quickly ran out of original material and really got in over their heads.  They couldnt even write one seasons worth of a show without GRRM as a guide.  LOL, so now they are out of material so what do they do? Make a parody of their own show with Arya in Braavos and after their entire made-up Larry-in Dorne fiasco they decided to fall back on the-actual-reason-they-even-have-a-show-or-any popularity-at-all and go back to FFC and all the lovely-laid-out-storyline-from-GRRM they skipped because they realized (admittedly or not) that they suck compared to GRRM.  But even with all that I'm sure they will manage to butcher the epic conversation between Jaime and the Blackfish tonight.  And obviously there is no Lady Stoneheart or Brienne at the end of this venture (unless Batfinger loans Brienne his teleporter, in which case she could already be at Riverrun for all we know!)

[The fanny from hell]

Count me in among those who can't stand Dean Charles Chapman's acting and voice. Everyone has a go at Emilia but hearing show-Tommen speak makes me want to tear off my eardrums.

[The fanny from hell]

I recognize that Emilia can be cringeworthy, but not even her most cringeworthy moment (her break the wheel dialogue with St Tyrion, which irritated me to no end because of the blatant fan-service) matches usual Tommen.

[Eucratides_Megas]

The TOJ fight was the most ludicrous and over-the-top example of bad Hollywood-ized swordplay I've ever seen. There were a million comments about how "cool" and "amazing" and "badass" it was to see a man awkwardly waving around two swords while allowing himself to be surrounded by five or six opponents....not that it mattered since the opponents were equally retarded and decided to fight him one at a time---like gentlemen.

Also note how the greatest swordsmen in Westerosi history ignored the very defensible staircase going up the tower's side, which would have both funneled the enemy's superior numbers into a more manageable number AND forced them to fight uphill (Something talked about in depth BTW in that book last published in the series A DANCE OF FUCKING DRAGONS!....I'm pretty sure both of these retards only read the Cliff Notes version of the story after the Red Wedding. Because reading hurts them apparently). 

But no. Benioff and Weiss apparently thought awkwardly swinging longswords two at a time was "super cool, bro" and waaaay better than fighting in an intelligent manner. Given how many knuckle-dragging philistines were gushing about it I can't say they didn't know their core audience.

Everything about this show is terrible now. I can find not a single redeeming thing about it anymore. Tyrion? Ruined. Stannis? Don't get me fucking started. Dorne.....? Dorne....?

Someone shop in a million palms covering Picard's face and you'll have a fifty-percent approximation about how low I feel this thing has fallen.

[Cas Stark]

Dan and Dave absolutely understand their core audience.  This season has the highest audience figures of any season so far.  I expect the finale will be the most watched episode of the series.  

[The Fattest Leech]

37 minutes ago, Eucratides_Megas said:

The TOJ fight was the most ludicrous and over-the-top example of bad Hollywood-ized swordplay I've ever seen. There were a million comments about how "cool" and "amazing" and "badass" it was to see a man awkwardly waving around two swords while allowing himself to be surrounded by five or six opponents....not that it mattered since the opponents were equally retarded and decided to fight him one at a time---like gentlemen.

Also note how the greatest swordsmen in Westerosi history ignored the very defensible staircase going up the tower's side, which would have both funneled the enemy's superior numbers into a more manageable number AND forced them to fight uphill (Something talked about in depth BTW in that book last published in the series A DANCE OF FUCKING DRAGONS!....I'm pretty sure both of these retards only read the Cliff Notes version of the story after the Red Wedding. Because reading hurts them apparently). 

But no. Benioff and Weiss apparently thought awkwardly swinging longswords two at a time was "super cool, bro" and waaaay better than fighting in an intelligent manner. Given how many knuckle-dragging philistines were gushing about it I can't say they didn't know their core audience.

Everything about this show is terrible now. I can find not a single redeeming thing about it anymore. Tyrion? Ruined. Stannis? Don't get me fucking started. Dorne.....? Dorne....?

Someone shop in a million palms covering Picard's face and you'll have a fifty-percent approximation about how low I feel this thing has fallen.

Can you say ALL of this again, only louder? Clearly you are reading my mind... and thank you for that

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dude...........................:(

 

[nedfart]

Lady Mormont scene was one of the most cringe worthy things I've ever seen. 

 

And Jaime's lines from the next episode trailer? What the actual fuck . 

[SerMixalot]

I loved the blank spares at the 62 men.  all three of them leaning in say whaaa?

[Winter's Cold]

Arya stands there for five seconds while a complete stranger approaches and gets stabbed. Shock value matters more than characters behaving coherently I guess.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Arya stands there for five seconds while a complete stranger approaches and gets stabbed. Shock value matters more than characters behaving coherently I guess.

Even a Blind Girl could have seen that was the waif with another face. Arya learned nada.

[SerMixalot]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Even a Blind Girl could have seen that was the waif with another face. Arya learned nada.

she didn't even have needle with her