Bakker's TGO Excerpts II: Mining our Merest Fraction [Spoilers]s

[lokisnow]

9 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Well, currently they are doomed. No need to escort them out. Remember that Akka used charcoal markings to track their passage. Those will at this time have been erased, or (better yet) modified by Koringhus and Monkboy. So Akka and Mim are completely at their mercy. (Which is why they waited so long to announce themselves in the first place, of course.) The best Akka can hope for is to incinerate the two — oh, I thought of something! He could try to capture Monkboy and apply the Cants of Compulsion. But I think the odds on that aren’t good, and Akka knows this.

——

Other thing: I am getting more and more obsessed by ideas of open versus static societies [1,2], and I think that our regular musing of the form couldn’t–they–just–do–this (for instance, have sorcerers build roads) are captives to the fact that we live in open societies. What Bakker does right (and GRRM completely misses) is that his society is peopled with static thinkers. If history is any guide, the ability of people to prevent progress, to actively build social institutions and moral defence mechanisms that prevent the spread of good ideas, is one of the defining characteristics of the human condition. (The Moai on Easter Island are perhaps the most impressive monument to that trait, the excruciatingly slow development of axes and knives another.) So there is no mystery about the lack of sorcerous roads. The non-adaptation of obviously good ideas of potentially monumental impact throughout human history is staggering. Not progressing is what we do, it’s cognitively and socially very hard, but we’re good at it. 

[1] Deutsch, Beginning of Infinity, 20something

[2] Popper, The Open Society and its Enemies, 19something

hmm. fair enough, but I think there is a tendency with these structurations to position ourselves as _obviously_ existing within the option we tag with those values we consider superior.  The idea of Open and Closed Societies is a useful heuristic but it can conversely also be a dangerously closed heuristic that shuts down evidence outside of those binaries.  Now it's very true and without Florence / diMedici we don't get a lot of the innovations of recent history being well desseminated throughout Europe, but on the other hand, before they "opened things up" the DiMedici innovated their fortune via novel finance systems within an allegedly closed society. My point is that allegedly closed societies always had very robust trade networks that facilitated knowledge and good and livestock transfers to a surprisingly universal degree--otherwise we'd have blacksmiths or grain cultivation isolated to the one area of the world where they were first innovated within a 'closed' society. 

Now, it's worth noting that the institutions that had power and control over dissemination of information often did actively work to maintain stasis and were incredibly successful at maintaining stasis whether it's the holy roman empire, Japan, or China, for example. And interestingly, it's often in the presence of abundance and the lack of scarcity that you find many cultures who stayed at subsistence levels of technology throughout the last four or five thousand years. 

[lokisnow]

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

But all we have to argue for him being a defective is his looks. Why should the Dûnyain care about that?

defectives from the unmasking room have the tops of their skulls cut away to apply neuropuncture needles. He has an intact skull case, or they'd have noted that you know, his brain was leaking all over the place.

[Kalbear]

51 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

hmm. fair enough, but I think there is a tendency with these structurations to position ourselves as _obviously_ existing within the option we tag with those values we consider superior.  The idea of Open and Closed Societies is a useful heuristic but it can conversely also be a dangerously closed heuristic that shuts down evidence outside of those binaries.  Now it's very true and without Florence / diMedici we don't get a lot of the innovations of recent history being well desseminated throughout Europe, but on the other hand, before they "opened things up" the DiMedici innovated their fortune via novel finance systems within an allegedly closed society. My point is that allegedly closed societies always had very robust trade networks that facilitated knowledge and good and livestock transfers to a surprisingly universal degree--otherwise we'd have blacksmiths or grain cultivation isolated to the one area of the world where they were first innovated within a 'closed' society. 

Now, it's worth noting that the institutions that had power and control over dissemination of information often did actively work to maintain stasis and were incredibly successful at maintaining stasis whether it's the holy roman empire, Japan, or China, for example. And interestingly, it's often in the presence of abundance and the lack of scarcity that you find many cultures who stayed at subsistence levels of technology throughout the last four or five thousand years. 

This brings up an interesting point too. A lot of technological innovation didn't come from internally, it came from externally and then everyone caught up with it. 

What would the parallel be in Earwa? Fanimry. One of the reasons I would think that you wouldn't want sorcerers blowing the shit out of things everywhere is that if you are Few it looks incredibly ugly. A sorcerer would morally be a bit bothered by it even if they would do it. But the Cish? Well, they believe the Cish are holy. And they're hugely big on trade and pilgrimage too, right - that they kept open the trade routes to Shimeh even after being at war. 

Wouldn't it make a bit more sense for them to use sorcerers in a more utilitarian way?

And we even already have some of that, with their use of farcalling and communication of Cish to talk to other heads of state and the like. Something that other sorcerers don't do. 

That all being said, open/closed societies is a reasonable thing as a way to approach things - but it completely breaks apart when talking about post Kellhus empire. When Kellhus can say that sorcery isn't sinful provided it's righteous, when he can make women able to open a School, when his troops start using Scylvendi tactics and weaponry such as their steppe ponies, when he can promise that the Mandate give the anagog schools the gnosis, when they eat sranc...nothing is off the table at that point. If Kellhus tells a sorcerer that he needs a perfectly straight road from here to Golgotterath, it's gonna happen, and that sorcerer is going to be super happy about it. 

[Callan S.]

3 hours ago, lokisnow said:

defectives from the unmasking room have the tops of their skulls cut away to apply neuropuncture needles. He has an intact skull case, or they'd have noted that you know, his brain was leaking all over the place.

Do they? Oh darn! There goes that theory then!

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

4 hours ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

The little boy is actually Korenghus.  Kellhus teleported back to Ishual to breed some time during the Unification period.   He rode the fake Korenghus as his stallion and directed him through the shortest path and their survival.

Ah, the reverse Talos-Baldanders manouvre.

[Werthead]

Dagliash is "where shit gets real", I think I can confidently say.

Question: has there been any discussion of what the "Upright Horn" means? It's been mentioned again in the book, but just as in the short stories, only as a name. Does it mean one of the Horns of Golgotterath is upright and the other is damaged or fallen? Or did the Ark fall at an angle? I'm just wondering as all of the artistic renditions of Golgotterath have both horns being uniform, upright and parallel.

16 hours ago, Hello World said:

Kind of a long shot but, MG, Werthead, Pat, H. etc... Do we find out  if Theliopa is named after a character that's yet to be introduced?

I don't think so. She's been in the book for all of about five pages so far (as of 300 pages in).

[Callan S.]

Sort of a spoiler, that? Last time I remember her life being under threat...

[jurble]

The Inchausti (sp?) were invading the palace, but they'd have no reason to threaten or harm Thelli - their goal was to overthrow and secure Esmenet. Esmenet assumed Maithenet was planning a coup (and kill her children) to seize control of the empire for himself, but he was in fact loyal to Kellhus, as she realizes later in the text - she was thinking of Maithenet as a greedy human rather than a passionless Dunyain.

[Callan S.]

17 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

The Inchausti (sp?) were invading the palace, but they'd have no reason to threaten or harm Thelli

I'd say in the story there are no reasons for many characters to do certain things...that they go ahead and do anyway.

I guess though if folk think the character was safe, I see the perspective.

 

[Gormenghast]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Kalbear said:

Which is a shame, because I thought @Gormenghast made some reasonable points over at his blog, and it was was a lot more nuanced than 'hur hur Kalbear sucks'. In particular, I like the idea that this is basically a form of metatext over the text, and it is the writer making notes. And sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, but it's a good idea to at least try instead of not try, even if you fail sometimes. That makes sense and is reasonable to me, though I still feel that in particular that line robbed the urgency of the moment.

But beside the snark and not wanting to engage, I think Bakker confirmed the same idea:

Quote

Otherwise, the books are meant to be scriptural, professing the vicissitudes of doubt rather than faith. I get that certain people don’t like that. It’s harder to understand why anyone would expend so much energy convincing others they shouldn’t like that. But then, hey, EAMD, right?

reads to me like: "that's how I write, it's a deliberate choice. Some people don't like that, but complaining about breaking some sort of canon is silly."

You can as well read "scriptural" as "preachy". It doesn't seem to me Bakker denies this. But of course he says it's not a mistake about slipping out of PoV, it's instead about the book being written just in a different style.

You can of course prefer a more traditional one, and even have good reasons for that, but that's the nature of Bakker's work. And even what sets it apart.

[Kalbear]

I think that's fair. I also think it's reasonable to point out when that style doesn't work. I'm not denying it isn't a stylistic choice - it shows up in basically every work he has after all. I'm saying that said stylistic choice sometimes works against itself.

Especially there, I felt. Because really, what parent after not seeing their 7 year old alive for months and having been told that no one is taking care of them is not going to rush off? Especially when a war is about to happen? If anything this is the time to not show the rational choices, it is time to show the primal raw emotional side. 

[themerchant]

8 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Sort of a spoiler, that? Last time I remember her life being under threat...

last we heard is from Maitha saying she is safe. Just before Esme's hired help plunges a dagger into him.

[themerchant]

So there was no mistake then. No wonder I couldn't see it at the time.

[Werthead]

Finished. Digesting.

I actually think that splitting the book worked well enough. Things start slow and then build up to an absolutely massive, multi-stranded finale with major battles and revelations taking place on multiple fronts simultaneously. The actual endings - almost all cliffhangers - are cruel but appropriate.

Maybe if we knew we had 2-5 years to wait for the final part it'd be more annoying, but in one respect I think analysis will benefit from being able to digest the first half of the novel for a year before we get to the second. There is a lot to digest, some major major revelations about backstories, events and worldbuilding, as well as the metaphysics of things.

One area where I'd disagree with Pat:

The Consult do show up, but it's rather fleeting. They do make their presence "felt" however, which is putting it mildly.

[Hello World]

You mean they show up in the same way they've been showing up throughout the series so far? Because I think the Consult will only really show up once we get to Golgotterath.

[Sci-2]

1 hour ago, Triskan said:

Obviously I've not read the book yet, but I feel like the split will be tolerable as long as it's not a protracted wait for the next book.  I cannot do another five years though or I will start murdering all of you for the sake of atrocity and memory despite the love I feel for you.  Please let it just be like 18 months. 

Well it would suck to wait longer than a year or so, but if there's enough new tidbits we can probably keep slogging along.

AIs, consciousness, simulation hypothesis, idealism, Gnosticism, negative theology, language & logic, genetics, ethics, transhumanism....we've run through a remarkable number of topics in the intervening span so far...

[Kalbear]

Yeah, in a lot of ways the reduction of possibility space is going to be a bit sad. This also reminds me of Lost, where many of the fan theories were significantly better then the ending. Same with BSG. My suspicion is that the ending will be more satisfying than those but it'll still be sad to see some of the theories die.

 

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

There is a lot to digest, some major major revelations about backstories, events and worldbuilding, as well as the metaphysics of things.

As with Nietzsche, thus with Bakker:

If anyone finds this script incomprehensible and hard on the ears, I do not think the fault necessarily lies with me. It is clear enough, assuming, as I do, that people have first read my earlier works without sparing themselves some effort... I admit that you need one thing above all in order to practise this requisite art of reading... you almost need to be a cow for this one thing and certainly not a 'modern man': it is rumination

[unJon]

18 minutes ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

As with Nietzsche, thus with Bakker:

 

I'm not so sure. Nietzsche is one of the most clear philosophy writers ever. If you graphed philosophers along the axes of depth and clarity, Nietzche would be on the Markowitz Frontier for sure. 

[Werthead]

I don't think it will be 18 months. I'm hoping it's not even 12, but I suspect 12 would be optimum.

Of course, what would be awesome is if Bakker is able to get Book 1 of the Last Series ready for 2018, or 12 months after The Unholy Consult, but I suspect that may be asking too much.

I think people missed this from Pat's review, so I will reiterate: this book has massive cliffhangers, like ADWD+. If you really utterly despise cliffhangers of that kind, I would strongly recommend buying the book but not reading it until TUC hits.

5 hours ago, Hello World said:

You mean they show up in the same way they've been showing up throughout the series so far? Because I think the Consult will only really show up once we get to Golgotterath.

In terms of actual appearances, yes. In terms of what they do, no. This is something a bit bigger.

I will shut up now.

@Triskan Yes, you find all that out. The Nonmen are an interesting bunch.