How Much Did GRRM tell D&D?

[Darkstream]

6 minutes ago, illinifan said:

So you agree that both little girls should not be raped. 

Nope, strawman, like I said, exercise in futility.

[lancerman]

Okay he probably told them Rheagar plus Lyanna equals Jon.

[Armand Gargalen]

8 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Here, this person has articulated it far better than I have the ability to do.

http://www.therainbowhub.com/jeyne-poole-and-bad-storytelling-why-we-need-to-stop-making-excuses-for-gratuitous-rape-scenes/

In spoiler for length and off topic.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This is an excellent explanation why swapping Jeyne Poole for Sansa is relevant, not something that can be done without substantially altering the story. I would like to add a couple more reasons:

1. From Theon´s POV: 

Book Theon had never paid any attention to JP before she becomes "fake Arya", and that is due to he being below him in the social ladder. Her arrival to Winterfell is a key event that makes Theon´s life easier, because he is needed to vouch for her identity in front of the Northern Lords. In that situation, he has every reason to ignore her suffering, at the end of the day, Ramsey has a new "toy" to play with. Despite this, Theon finds the empathy to feel sorry for her and trying to help her. In a way, only by feeling this empathy he can really find the strength to escape and be Theon again. 

Show Theon feels inferior to Sansa Stark, and since she arrives he has reasons to apologize to her for. He does not need to find an inner feeling to help her: he does it just because she is Sansa "nad does not deserve to suffer Ramsay abuse".

You are free to choose which story you find more compelling, but IMHO the first one is way more interesting.

2. From Jeyne/Sansa´s POV:

Jeyne is an abused and brutalized girl who is used as a toy by Littlefinger, the Lannisters and the Boltons. Like Theon, she has every reason to shut down emotionally and stop caring for other people. But she does not do that, she is the only one who shows Theon empathy and respect, the only one who can see him as a human being. Thorough mutual support, they find the strength to finally defeat their own fears and can escape their abuse. At no single point they think of revenge against Ramsey, their only goal is to recover their dignity, self respect and freedom.

Sansa is unable to feel any empathy for Theon. Her goals are just to escape and, later, to get revenge against Ramsay. She uses Theon to escape,she kills Miranda (what a stupid character, btw) she uses Jon and the Wildlings to get her revenge, and she does not show and ounce of  empathy or pity for any other character, including her younger brother Rickon.

So we have a story about two broken people who find the empathy to see other abused person as they really are and, only then, can join together, defeat their fear, and escape abuse. And we have another story about a noble girl who is abused and uses every opportunity she has to escape and get revenge. Once again, I am sure which one I prefer. 

 

[Darkstream]

44 minutes ago, Armand Gargalen said:

This is an excellent explanation why swapping Jeyne Poole for Sansa is relevant, not something that can be done without substantially altering the story. I would like to add a couple more reasons: <snip>

Excellent points as well, these reasons alone are far more compelling and meaningfull than d$d's all encompassing themes of, revenge and vengeance is so cool and bad ass, and, Torture porn is so edgy and shocking.  

[Rex999]

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

 Torture porn is so edgy and shocking.  

 

PG-13 horror movies showed more than Game of thrones did when it came to Sansa 

 

We never saw Sansa get raped   ( We saw Theon's reaction )

We never saw Sansa get beat  (We saw a quick scene of Sansa with bruises on her back)

We are told bad things has happened to her but we never see any of it

Now don't get me wrong I agree that D&D were trying to be edgy but describing Sansa scenes in season 5 as torture porn is Ridicules and over the top

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, illinifan said:

What is telling is that book purists are okay with a pretty graphic descriptions of rape and torture of Jeyne in the books which if I remember correctly involve beastiality but are upset about the horrific but thankfully less graphic than the books portrayals of Sansa's rape.

Euhm - George doesn't actually "show" bestiality in the books. It's something that Theon has heard say by Ramsay's men. It probably happened, but that's not actually confirmed. It's hearsay.

[Ser Quork]

3 hours ago, Armand Gargalen said:

This is an excellent explanation why swapping Jeyne Poole for Sansa is relevant, not something that can be done without substantially altering the story. I would like to add a couple more reasons:

1. From Theon´s POV: 

Book Theon had never paid any attention to JP before she becomes "fake Arya", and that is due to he being below him in the social ladder. Her arrival to Winterfell is a key event that makes Theon´s life easier, because he is needed to vouch for her identity in front of the Northern Lords. In that situation, he has every reason to ignore her suffering, at the end of the day, Ramsey has a new "toy" to play with. Despite this, Theon finds the empathy to feel sorry for her and trying to help her. In a way, only by feeling this empathy he can really find the strength to escape and be Theon again. 

Show Theon feels inferior to Sansa Stark, and since she arrives he has reasons to apologize to her for. He does not need to find an inner feeling to help her: he does it just because she is Sansa "nad does not deserve to suffer Ramsay abuse".

You are free to choose which story you find more compelling, but IMHO the first one is way more interesting.

2. From Jeyne/Sansa´s POV:

Jeyne is an abused and brutalized girl who is used as a toy by Littlefinger, the Lannisters and the Boltons. Like Theon, she has every reason to shut down emotionally and stop caring for other people. But she does not do that, she is the only one who shows Theon empathy and respect, the only one who can see him as a human being. Thorough mutual support, they find the strength to finally defeat their own fears and can escape their abuse. At no single point they think of revenge against Ramsey, their only goal is to recover their dignity, self respect and freedom.

Sansa is unable to feel any empathy for Theon. Her goals are just to escape and, later, to get revenge against Ramsay. She uses Theon to escape,she kills Miranda (what a stupid character, btw) she uses Jon and the Wildlings to get her revenge, and she does not show and ounce of  empathy or pity for any other character, including her younger brother Rickon.

So we have a story about two broken people who find the empathy to see other abused person as they really are and, only then, can join together, defeat their fear, and escape abuse. And we have another story about a noble girl who is abused and uses every opportunity she has to escape and get revenge. Once again, I am sure which one I prefer. 

 

Excellent additional points.

[Armand Gargalen]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Excellent points as well, these reasons alone are far more compelling and meaningfull than d$d's all encompassing themes of, revenge and vengeance is so cool and bad ass, and, Torture porn is so edgy and shocking.  

 

57 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

Excellent additional points.

Thanks for your kind feedback, it took me a while to get asleep last night because I could not stop thinking about this  

[kissdbyfire]

15 hours ago, illinifan said:

Sorry,,, You are disgusted by rape of Sansa Stark in the TV show but weren't equally disgusted by the rape of Jeyne Poole in the books.  Let me remind you that Jeyne had to endure more disgusting things than we saw Sansa endure.  I forgot where the producers introduced beastiality into the equation.  The fact that it is okay for Jeyne in the books but not for Sansa in the series is ridiculous.  Seriously, the real Sansas of GOT married the real Ramsay Bolton during the Middle Ages many times and he raped and abused her.  That is common then and that is common now.  Why we are whining about this is beyond me. 

I suggest you go back and re-read that since you are just repeating what many say, and it's funny because it didn't happen. And who are you to state that other readers weren't equally disturbed by what happened to Jeyne Poole? You and many others seem to be projecting your own lack of empathy for Jeyne onto others; please don't, it's horribly insulting. 

[Dragon in the North]

13 hours ago, lancerman said:

Okay he probably told them Rheagar plus Lyanna equals Jon.

If I'm remembering this right, D&D actually came up with the answer themselves. Martin simply confirmed it to them.

[Darkstream]

8 hours ago, Rex999 said:

 

PG-13 horror movies showed more than Game of thrones did when it came to Sansa 

 

We never saw Sansa get raped   ( We saw Theon's reaction )

We never saw Sansa get beat  (We saw a quick scene of Sansa with bruises on her back)

We are told bad things has happened to her but we never see any of it

Now don't get me wrong I agree that D&D were trying to be edgy but describing Sansa scenes in season 5 as torture porn is Ridicules and over the top

I was not referring to Sansa's scenes specifically. I said "all encompassing themes of, revenge and vengeance is so cool and bad ass, and, Torture porn is so edgy and shocking."

Perhaps, that wasn't the best term, maybe I should have said over all themes?

[Kusanagi]

8 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

If I'm remembering this right, D&D actually came up with the answer themselves. Martin simply confirmed it to them.

I think the show's "reveal" was really weak. The audience is supposed to discover that together with Snow, that's how to build suspense and gut wrench. 

[lancerman]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I suggest you go back and re-read that since you are just repeating what many say, and it's funny because it didn't happen. And who are you to state that other readers weren't equally disturbed by what happened to Jeyne Poole? You and many others seem to be projecting your own lack of empathy for Jeyne onto others; please don't, it's horribly insulting. 

I think the issue is that a lot of problems for people who didn't read the books was that a girl got raped to prop up Ramsay as an evil villain. While the problem certain (I don't even know what to call them at this point because everyone reads the books) I'll call them book purists were more mad that it was Sansa who was put in the situation to get raped.

Like nothing thematically changed besides who the character was. But Sansa's rape is used as a rallying point against the show. When really even if you kept everything as is, the same probably remains.

[Kusanagi]

4 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I think the issue is that a lot of problems for people who didn't read the books was that a girl got raped to prop up Ramsay as an evil villain. While the problem certain (I don't even know what to call them at this point because everyone reads the books) I'll call them book purists were more mad that it was Sansa who was put in the situation to get raped.

Like nothing thematically changed besides who the character was. But Sansa's rape is used as a rallying point against the show. When really even if you kept everything as is, the same probably remains.

How many times do we have to say that it marks a break of thematic consistency when Jeyne was turned into Sansa? 

How many times do we have to say because Jeyne was nobody, her experience tells us about their world and how Theon continue to progress as a character?

How many times do we have to say Sansa being there makes no sense, because Sansa is a wanted person and an enemy of the state?

How many times do we have to say Jeyne was pretending to be Arya?

[lancerman]

Just now, Kusanagi said:

How many times do we have to say that it marks a break of thematic consistency when Jeyne was turned into Sansa? 

How many times do we have to say because Jeyne was nobody, her experience tells us about their world and how Theon continue to progress as a character?

How many times do we have to say Sansa being there makes no sense, because Sansa is a wanted person and an enemy of the state?

How many times do we have to say Jeyne was pretending to be Arya?

Because everything you mentioned just quite frankly isn't compelling. Thematically inconsistent? The last time we saw Sansa before she went to Winterfell she was tricked into lying for LF after he framed her for murder and was acting how he wanted her to act. So he got her to go to Winterfell under false pretenses he had no intentions of living up to. LF's a liar. The first thing he did when he brought Sansa to the North was betray her so he could play both sides of the board.

Theon had the same arc. It made no difference who the girl was for him because he still had the same response in the end where he watched a girl being tortured by Ramsay and then he redeemed himself.

Even you bringing up that she was an enemy of the state, was precisely the reason LF brought her there in the first place.

I would be more receptive to it if every time I heard these arguments they didn't either come off as massive projections based on things that were never outright laid out in the show, were criticisms that almost relied on certain parts of the plot being willfully ignored so that the person presenting the argument, or worse were just so shallow they it doesn't even take any effort to come up with the answer to it (which is often laid out word for word in the show).

Like I don't what to tell  you besides it's been over a year of hearing the same bad arguments over and over again, and the only commonality is that they had a problem with all of it happening to Sansa. Like it shouldn't be something where a toddler could look at it and see what's going on, but all these people that are fans of an extremely intricate show and book series are dumbfounded. It's baffling. More so that it's been going on for over a year.  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, lancerman said:

I think the issue is that a lot of problems for people who didn't read the books was that a girl got raped to prop up Ramsay as an evil villain. While the problem certain (I don't even know what to call them at this point because everyone reads the books) I'll call them book purists were more mad that it was Sansa who was put in the situation to get raped.

Like nothing thematically changed besides who the character was. But Sansa's rape is used as a rallying point against the show. When really even if you kept everything as is, the same probably remains.

And how many times do we have to say that it thematically changed things A LOT. Look at how many show houses came to help the Starks against the Boltons/Lannisters. Look how many northern houses came to help the Ned's girl. Look how many other northern houses knew Jeyne was not Arya, yet they still had sympathy for the girl and felt helpless when they heard her screams at night. Look how Jeyne was incredibly instrumental in bringing Theon's identity and honor back to him and in return, she was saved.

Compare that to how the show made every northern house OK with dishonor, kinslaying, breaking guest rights and oathbreaking.

The showrunners literally undid the entire theme to put Sansa in a place where she logically would not be because they wanted it to happen. It was planned all the way back in season 2.

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And how many times do we have to say that it thematically changed things A LOT. Look at how many show houses came to help the Starks against the Boltons/Lannisters. Look how many northern houses came to help the Ned's girl. Look how many other northern houses knew Jeyne was not Arya, yet they still had sympathy for the girl and felt helpless when they heard her screams at night. Look how Jeyne was incredibly instrumental in bringing Theon's identity and honor back to him and in return, she was saved.

Compare that to how the show made every northern house OK with dishonor, kinslaying, breaking guest rights and oathbreaking.

The showrunners literally undid the entire theme to put Sansa in a place where she logically would not be because they wanted it to happen. It was planned all the way back in season 2.

That's an action not a theme. It was stated multiple times that people didn't like what was happening to Sansa. And just because two different actions happen, doesn't mean they are inconsistent with there own storyline.

As it pertains to Theon. He  found his identity through Sansa instead of Jeyne. That's a valid take. As it pertains to the Northern lords, they still had reasons not to support the Starks nor Jon and a wilding army after what happened when Robb and his mother wasted all their lives by acting selfish. It's a valid take. You don't have to like it, but it's real response someone could have. Especially when it comes to risking your life and the life of your men.

Not supporting one person Jon after his brother screwed you over, after you were in a devastating war, while he was fighting alongside your enemies for thousands of years =/ being okay with kin slaying and breaking guest rights. That's the most childish black and white logic I've ever heard. Sometimes people are in a shitty situation and don't want to pick a side and risk losing more. The real world isn't always one or the other.

Which is what these arguments always turn into. It's only wrong because people are upset about it and want it to be wrong.

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, lancerman said:

That's an action not a theme.

~snipped~

Do you realize that it is all of these actions combined that add up to what is the theme and message of the story? Loyalty is the theme of the northern story. Another theme is that revenge is bad. Stories use the actions of the characters to show the theme put into place.

[lancerman]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

Do you realize that it is all of these actions combined that add up to what is the theme and message of the story? Loyalty is the theme of the northern story. Another theme is that revenge is bad. Stories use the actions of the characters to show the theme put into place.

Lyanna Mormont was loyal. They used that theme. Not all the Northern lords have been rallying to the Starks in the books. You're attempting to make it a zero sum game.

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Lyanna Mormont was loyal. They used that theme. Not all the Northern lords have been rallying to the Starks in the books. You're attempting to make it a zero sum game.

So, because they used one loyal house in the show with the Stark kids, but actually added more against the Stark kids, some even inside Winterfell itself, that is the same idea? I'm not asking for a page by page re-do on screen. I am talking general theme. I tend to picture it more of balancing a scale.

Even in the books there are houses coming out of the literal woods to help the Starks. Even the Karstarks are failing in their "plot against" the Starks.