Heresy 187

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Notwithstanding, this is still a story about humans and human failings; including per the new chapter reading; Euron committing sexual abouse rather than introducing Aeron to a pet kraken

I agree that there won't be a literal kraken, but a "kraken" is already in the story only we know it as the weirwood root system, which could also be interpreted as tentacles, and as the "drowned" god.

[Black Crow]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that there won't be a literal kraken, but a "kraken" is already in the story only we know it as the weirwood root system, which could also be interpreted as tentacles, and as the "drowned" god.

Especially if Nagga's Ribs are literally a drowned weirwood grove and the Ironborn are stubbornly worshipping a grove and its greenseers which really really did die a long time ago and is no longer listening.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Especially if Nagga's Ribs are literally a drowned weirwood grove and the Ironborn are stubbornly worshipping a grove and its greenseers which really really did die a long time ago and is no longer listening.

Yes, I agree Nagga's Ribs are a drowned weirwood grove. It was likely the site of the greenseer that was the original creator of the white walkers from the Long Night, but that doesn't mean that there cannot be a second greenseer somewhere other than Bloodraven that would play into @wolfmaid7 's theory...which is making more and more sense to me now that I can see the connection to the ironborn.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, LordImp said:

Wonder what the third holy shit could be ? Im guessing it's R+L= J but thats pretty obvious now so i wonder if it could be something else? The Starks leading the WW against Dany mayhaps? 

Maybe, though it's important to keep in mind that GRRM was already saying that D&D and some of the producers of GoT knew the "broad strokes" of the ending well before the 2013 Santa Fe meeting, so it's not as though they made the first couple seasons totally clueless as to where the story was heading; for example, D&D have said that the patterns that the WWs create with body parts, which they've been doing from the very first season, are meant to be their attempt at replicating CotF rituals.

It was my impression that the purpose of the Santa Fe meeting was that knowing the broad strokes of the ending would no longer cut it, because the show didn't just need to know what they would be doing during the Winds of Winter seasons, but they also needed to know what early preparations to make--for example, whether or not they would include characters like Aegon, and if so, how they would time that, etc. In other words, they needed to know what would be happening before the ending as well.

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

for example, D&D have said that the patterns that the WWs create with body parts, which they've been doing from the very first season, are meant to be their attempt at replicating CotF rituals.

Was this their exact words? Because I was under the impression that the placing of body parts in patterns was to symbolize a connection to ice magic, because the patterns would echo ice crystals or snowflakes.

[Black Crow]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Was this their exact words? Because I was under the impression that the placing of body parts in patterns was to symbolize a connection to ice magic, because the patterns would echo ice crystals or snowflakes.

Neither are snowflakes. The first was a spiral, the second a circle bisected by a line - a Greek letter P representing the golden ratio

[Matthew.]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Was this their exact words? Because I was under the impression that the placing of body parts in patterns was to symbolize a connection to ice magic, because the patterns would echo ice crystals or snowflakes.

From Inside the Episode:

"There are certain symbols and patterns that recur throughout the show. One of the very firsts scenes in the pilot [is] when Will, the ranger, sees the wildling body parts in an odd pattern displayed by the white walkers. We see it again north of the Wall with the dead horses displayed in a spiral pattern, and then you see it again here (the tree where the Night's King is created), and learn where these patterns come from--that they're ancient symbols that the CotF used in their rituals, and the CotF created the white walkers."

[LordImp]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Notwithstanding, this is still a story about humans and human failings; including per the new chapter reading; Euron committing sexual abouse rather than introducing Aeron to a pet kraken

It's also fantasy . The main theme is of course humans and human heart in conflict . But the fantasy elements plays a vital role , so a Kraken is not that Insane . But i agree that we most likely will not see a twisted sea creature . 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

From Inside the Episode:

"There are certain symbols and patterns that recur throughout the show. One of the very firsts scenes in the pilot [is] when Will, the Ranger, sees the wildling body parts in an odd pattern displayed by the white walkers. We see it again north of the Wall with the dead horses displayed in a spiral pattern, and then you see it again here (the tree where the Night's King is created), and learn where these patterns come from--that they're ancient symbols that the CotF used in their rituals, and the CotF created the white walkers."

Thank you for this info! The use of the ancient symbols may be inspired by the Simon Toyne books series The Sanctus, The Key, and The Tower. You may also recognize Simon Toyne as the name of the leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood, whom I suspect is connected to the Citadel.

The books written by the author with the same name also discuss an ancient language of symbols, especially a T-shaped one called the tou or tow (rhymes with ow). Not sure how it's spelled because I listened the audio books...but, the symbolic language is also written prophetically. 

[LordImp]

I've seen suggestions that the third holy shit GRRM revaled was that Dany is in fact the daughter of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. I'm not very fond of Dany being child of someone else than the mad King as i think a large part of Danys arc is to not become mad like her father and accept that Roberts rebellion was a necessary thing.

Has Danys parentage been discussed here before ? 

[Brad Stark]

42 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I've seen suggestions that the third holy shit GRRM revaled was that Dany is in fact the daughter of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. I'm not very fond of Dany being child of someone else than the mad King as i think a large part of Danys arc is to not become mad like her father and accept that Roberts rebellion was a necessary thing.

Has Danys parentage been discussed here before ? 

I posted this theory a while back,  lots of interest, but no real evidence other than how much she looks like Ashara.

Actually, my version had Rhegar and Ashara

[Dornish Neck Tie]

This is a bit nutty, but what if Nagga's weirwood grove is petrified because its trees and/or greenseers were killed by iron? It would go something like: the use of iron weapons against them permanently warded the trees against the magical, life-sustaining power of blood sacrifice, sort of of like salting the earth after burning someone's crops to render the soil useless.

It would also give us a cheeky, forgotten meaning for the name "Iron Born," if they are a people who were originally enslaved by a cabal of powerful greenseers and broke free (were "born") once they discovered the extraordinary benefits of iron, maybe even with some help from a friendly invading Andal or a particularly bold Rhoynish ship captain (lol)

[Mace Cooterian]

A few random thoughts on the Nights Kings.

NOTE:  my books are in storage and I don't trust Wikipedia to lend a helping hand; so I'l rely on my own recollection.

Forgetting the mummers version for a moment and sticking with canon...I think the Nights King is toast.  At the very best he is the entrance from the Black Gate to the land beyond.  The only way he comes out of his eternal chain is if...."if".....the wall comes down.  If this does happen, he is no more or less than a skin changer warging his or her way into the next host.  In other words, he dies in Varamyr fashion.

P.S. and no I don't think he was ever a green seer.  Warging powers?  Most definite.  Otherwise, how could he have bound his brothers?  A abomination.

P.S.S.  So how did he acquire these powers if not through blood lineage?  Beats the hell of out me!!!

 

 

[Rodx]

About Euron,a thing that I start to thing if he end up being a Good ruler ?

a actual passage of Dance that someone (I don't remember, was a good time since I read this book) that says to Dany that a good person don't necessary means a Good ruler, take Robert as a example.

I take a very controversial idea that the Series can end in a scenario similar to the last Witcher book or Far Cry 4 game, that the main villain end up being the Lesser Evil ...

 

[wolfmaid7]

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Still strongly disagree. There's no crossover between Wood Dancers and Greenseers.They are entirely different.

You misunderstand me Papa Crow.I wasn't saying that Wood Dancers and Greenseers are the same. Wood Dancers sound like a warrior class of the COTF that was established for that purpose.I had this thought that seeing as Dancing is is akin to sword play in this world at times.They didnt have swords so  wood? Maybe?

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, I agree Nagga's Ribs are a drowned weirwood grove. It was likely the site of the greenseer that was the original creator of the white walkers from the Long Night, but that doesn't mean that there cannot be a second greenseer somewhere other than Bloodraven that would play into @wolfmaid7 's theory...which is making more and more sense to me now that I can see the connection to the ironborn.

I don't think all of them died.Just as i don't think that all them threw support behind the pact.How likely is there NOT to be Greenseers on the isle of faces.

According to the WB pg 7

"Yet no matter the truths of their arts ,the children were led by their greenseers,and they could be found from the Lands of Always Winter,to the shores of the Summer Sea."

There's no way all the greenseers were wiped out. A very big part of this story has been identity,people not being who the characters think or sometimes who we think.

The Drowned god,Rhollor,the Great Other the Many faced god, is all one thing just pretending to be gods.

If we think about it,when somone kneel's before a Hearttree who are they really praying to,whose really listening?

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Maybe, though it's important to keep in mind that GRRM was already saying that D&D and some of the producers of GoT knew the "broad strokes" of the ending well before the 2013 Santa Fe meeting, so it's not as though they made the first couple seasons totally clueless as to where the story was heading; for example, D&D have said that the patterns that the WWs create with body parts, which they've been doing from the very first season, are meant to be their attempt at replicating CotF rituals.

It was my impression that the purpose of the Santa Fe meeting was that knowing the broad strokes of the ending would no longer cut it, because the show didn't just need to know what they would be doing during the Winds of Winter seasons, but they also needed to know what early preparations to make--for example, whether or not they would include characters like Aegon, and if so, how they would time that, etc. In other words, they needed to know what would be happening before the ending as well.

True! I don't think they know details,and somethings i don't think they know at all based on GRRM'S post about the spoilers.So we still have really no clue what's real and what's not.They have said some thing GRRM has told them example Hodor's name being as a result of Hodor holding the door ( wherever the door was) I don't know about you guys but what i gathered from the series i don't think COTF are in the habit of building doors at the back and front of their CAVES.

 

39 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

A few random thoughts on the Nights Kings.

NOTE:  my books are in storage and I don't trust Wikipedia to lend a helping hand; so I'l rely on my own recollection.

Forgetting the mummers version for a moment and sticking with canon...I think the Nights King is toast.  At the very best he is the entrance from the Black Gate to the land beyond.  The only way he comes out of his eternal chain is if...."if".....the wall comes down.  If this does happen, he is no more or less than a skin changer warging his or her way into the next host.  In other words, he dies in Varamyr fashion.

P.S. and no I don't think he was ever a green seer.  Warging powers?  Most definite.  Otherwise, how could he have bound his brothers?  A abomination.

P.S.S.  So how did he acquire these powers if not through blood lineage?  Beats the hell of out me!!!

 

 

Yet,it is that bound his brothers to their will that kind of gives him being a GS a little weight.I say that because of the connection of enthralling people.The only other enthralled human beings are...well they dead but hey he not picky and Bran who is practicing on Hodor.

Then there is the black/whit seasonality comparisons that IMO ensures that NK role is the counterpart to BTB/BR and now Bran.

But to clarify my theory on this i think it important to remember that Night's King is just a title and just like BTB is probably one of several other voices in a collective,i think Night's King is the same.He's just one of many voices apart of some frozen weirwood grove or possibly wherever the Black gate really is.Haven't thought much about that to be honest.

I think TLH and LC13 are both TNK along with how many others are in there....Next person to add to the frozen weirwood or Wall will be Jon.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You misunderstand me Papa Crow.I wasn't saying that Wood Dancers and Greenseers are the same. Wood Dancers sound like a warrior class of the COTF that was established for that purpose.I had this thought that seeing as Dancing is is akin to sword play in this world at times.They didnt have swords so  wood? Maybe?

My point was that the Nights King was a warrior - a wood dancer - not a greenseer.

As to the wooden swords, my understanding is that the term arose because they "danced" in the woods, but at the same time you may well be right. We know they tipped their arrows with obsidian and had daggers and probably spearheads of the same, but I also envisage the wood dancers carrying Aztec style swords of wood with flakes of obsidian set into the edges.

[House Cambodia]

^ I know it's merely semi-canon, but the illustration of the wood dancers fighting Andals in WOIAF has the Children weilding spears and a dagger, which is certainly metal.

[House Cambodia]

Going well off-topic here but I don't know where else to post this. I'm currently reading what is a new classic of fantasy literature, The Last Days of Magic by Mark Tompkins. It was only published earlier this year so obviously it irrelevant for trying to understand the mind of GRRM; nevertheless, what it does offer is a milieu compatible with how we might imagine the mythical Dawn Age/Heroic Age here. Ireland is the last bastion of magic, controlled by the Sidhe (=Children). They've come to an accommodation with the Celts (=First Men) and have long having intermarried with the Celts adapting Christianity to incorporate their religion, and now together they are facing invasion and extermination by the Vatican/English forces (=Andals). With the main Sidhe tribes having compromised and allowed the Celts and Vikings to cut down some trees, the Tree Sidhe have rebelled and foolishly joined with the invaders, thinking they can betray the heathen after establishing their authority over the other defeated Sidhe and Celts. There are all sorts of conflicting agendas and emotions, and all characters are grey. Black Crow would appreciate the role of the Morrigna, and we have a watery species of anti-Sidhe that calls to mind potential pre-Iron Born denizens. It's quite an original angle which I highly recommend.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

^ I know it's merely semi-canon, but the illustration of the wood dancers fighting Andals in WOIAF has the Children weilding spears and a dagger, which is certainly metal.

Ah well the point here is not that they eschewed the use of metal, but rather that they simply didn't work it. I imagine that the original user of that dagger was a couple of feet taller and had four fingers rather than three.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

A few random thoughts on the Nights Kings.

NOTE:  my books are in storage and I don't trust Wikipedia to lend a helping hand; so I'l rely on my own recollection.

Forgetting the mummers version for a moment and sticking with canon...I think the Nights King is toast.  At the very best he is the entrance from the Black Gate to the land beyond.  The only way he comes out of his eternal chain is if...."if".....the wall comes down.  If this does happen, he is no more or less than a skin changer warging his or her way into the next host.  In other words, he dies in Varamyr fashion.

P.S. and no I don't think he was ever a green seer.  Warging powers?  Most definite.  Otherwise, how could he have bound his brothers?  A abomination.

P.S.S.  So how did he acquire these powers if not through blood lineage?  Beats the hell of out me!!!

Yuup, that's exactly how I see it.

Warging, possibly, but as told its all down to the white lady and whilst no direwolves are mention in connection with the Nights King, we do have that other story of the hell-hounds fighting at the Night Fort, which comes back to my earlier suggestion that the warging comes directly from the direwolves rather than something funny in the Stark bloodline