[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, LulaMae Barnes said:

HA!

You just gotta love Gatehouse Ami and her mom

For a second, when we saw that "girl" smile at Jaime when he was at the Twins, I almost lost my senses freaking out that the show daaaare introduce Gatehouse Ami into it's miserable plot. Gatehouse Ami is my third favorite female character in the stories.

But thanks the gods because logically and naturally it was just Arya wearing randoms face while busy cooking and serving grown men to grown men for a vapid revenge plot.

[Neds Secret]

7 hours ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Was Cersei a protagonist or antagonist in Season 6?  Was this consistent with her character from before? Was it consistent with her character throughout the season?

Should we celebrate her ascension...or lament it?  Which do you think the writers intended?

Was Tommen's death planned by Cersei...or a tragic by-product, or simply a check-marked plot point?

You have to watch the inside the episode to be told if she is good or bad! Duh!!

[VladimirDulud]

What's awful is a missed opportunity.

A missed opportunity being , for one, the leap from page to screen for Marge.

On the book, a shadow. A ghost. Practically non-existent. Just a sketch, a couple of paragraphs,

a slight intonation, a subtle affectation, a hint. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Show Marge, a complex, hard to predict , incredibly watchable cypher, and actually quite modern

considering the medieval fetish of the books.

And now, blasted to smithereens. What  a wasted opportunity!

The most intelligent character on the show wiped off.

And what for?

Zombies and dragons?

Hmm.

Sigh.

RIP Tyrells, RIP politicking....

But there is another.

Redwyne lives....

[VladimirDulud]

16 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

You have to watch the inside the episode to be told if she is good or bad! Duh!!

Cersei is an idiot in the books and on the show. She's just lucky , but should really be dead by now.

The character in both versions is ridiculous and belongs on Melrose Place. Dated and 90s in the books, confused and incongruous on the show. Show Cersei a lot more digestible, but still - completely ludicrous .

[Neds Secret]

5 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Thank you, but if I remember correctly that is actually mentioned in A Dance With Dragons - Daenerys realizes that "when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" refers to Quentyn Martell dying in Meereen.

I hope Daario won't take power, he doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in that at all. Ever since he was played by the first actor he has been about "fighting for beauty" and loving Daenerys. No sinister motivations. I can imagine him extending his motivation to sleeping with other beautiful women now that Dany is gone and he's the acting ruler - but then, who wouldn't. So he'll have his hands full.

He should know that if he declares himself king he will have to face dragons, and also furious Dany supporters, who have seen the virtual demigod Mhysa defeat all comers. It would be very unrealistic by the producers to make him betray Dany then.

 

As for seeing Jorah again - she could have made things a bit easier for him by giving him some gold before she sent him away to find a cure, eh? The guy did save her life three times - poisoned wine, Son of Harpy, Dothrakis.

If you save Dany 3 times you are rewarded with the right to go an an unsupported quest!

[The Dragon has three heads]

First watch:

well I guess they tied up their TV plots, and rail roades everything into making Danny win in mereen and Jon the KITN for sheer fan service.  

Second watch:

this actually makes...not a lot of sense...actually none, SANSA! USE YOUR WORDS! What the FUCK.

third watch

NO.

 

[lujo]

@Person who felt like finding historical / literary influences for Tyrion and thinks I haven't read the Odyssey. I read it in primary school because we had it at home, and then in high school because it's part of the curriculum, then again in colledge as part of the literatury theory curriculum, and then again in my second coledge run as part of the comparative literature curriculum:
 

Spoiler

You're right about two things - 1) Martin happened to explore what you could do with the character if you put him into a properly medieval setting in later books. and 2) most fans of ASOIAF didn't read much fantasy or sf, which is why someone could go wide or high  minded and look for potential influences.

However, if you HAD read the Miles books when they were top shlock, and were holding the first GoT book in your hands when it came out (so like, right after Miles has been THE hot thing for a few years), it would be impossible not to notice that the story of an

- intelectual dwarf with extra leg deformity (both)
- in a society with medieval values (both)
- who goes on a scenic trip (both)
- ends up taken hostage (both)
- but is somewhat protected by his fathers influence and afluence (both)
- whith the trip ending up with said dwarf hijjacing a mercenary company by talking them into it (both, except GoT ones are a parody),
- with mountains as motiff related to the company (both)
- then gettin funding for them post-festum by his father  (both)
- who is renowned for being a war criminal, (both)
- who's mother was a hugely positive influence on his father (both)
- and who was a high ranking advisor for a mad emperor (both)
- the father enlists them in their army as the dwarfs personal retinue (both)

- the dwarf's first assignment was also being in charge of the drains (both)

Is the plot of "The Warrior's Apprentice", the first Miles book, (with the drains thing being part of the plot of Vor Game, the second one, but thank god it's just a proper off-hand reference in GoT), and to top it all off miles' home planet, Barrayar was stuck in medieval stasis pretty much right up until the begining of the book, so moving most of it to an actual medieval fantasy setting would not in fact be very difficult at all.

You then take the first GoT book into your hands, and you and every other kid you know, and if they read anything in their lives it's the Miles books, see this exact same damned story and this same character copy/pasted into another authors book. Oh, he drinks and whores because it's meant to be more "adult" and the setting doesn't allow for the million drugs Miles ingests, wine is all Tyrion has. But you're holding the book and it's the same character, it's the same plot and you just can't believe someone would actually do that. That being: Look at what's selling at that exact moment and literally copy-paste a protagonist from a completely contemporary, trending author. Sure, he got around to doing a little bit of Richard the III later on - but if he got caught there at the first book he never would've got the chance to publish the next book.

I have literally known what was going to happen to Tyrion in the Game of Thrones book when I first had the book in my hand, for the most part, because I've literally read it all before. And I was reading both in a foreign language while not being very old, it's impossible to miss.

And that's jsut off the top of my head, simply from being familiar with the plot and characters of both books. I'm sure I could find more if I actually looked, and there's probably plenty in A Clash of Kings. Which is even worse, because that one was considered an improvement over the original - because it "more Miles fanfiction less of this other crap!" (or so it was marketed to me back in the day by folks who liked Miles fanfiction). It goes well beyond just being influenced or being influenced by the same stuff, this si scene-for-scene ripping stuff form the currently bestseling series with a distinct main character who's the main driving force of the series. It's hideously unethical and really, truly, sadly lame even if a judge might be bribed somewhere to judge it fair game.

But that's just if you're a regular kid. If you're the kind of kid that later goes on to study literature, what you also notice immediately is that Catelyn Stark is for all practical purposes Cordelia Naismith-VorKosigan, Mileses mother and protagonist of the prequels and also Bujolds alter-ego Mary Sue (I suppose).

- She's a clever and ambitious woman from a more advanced "planet" (both)
- Who marries a somewhat withdrawn lord from a more savage and backwards "planet" (both)
- This ends up working out oddly well for her (both)
- She has a child crippled by their enemies (both)
- Goes to exact her revenge (both, except in "Barrayar" it just works out differently for Cordelia)

Except what causes them to be different (and their plots to end up having different results) is just the author of GoT deciding his character is going to be "wrong" about stuff. And no, Cordelia being a soldier and all that - no they're not a different character, the character just changed the setting and can't be a warrior because of medieval sexism yadda yadda. When you read Catelyn what happens is that all her actions just turn out to cause the wrong effects - but it's the same damned plot and the same damned character.

Ned and Catelyn are Mileses parents who were simply made fish out of water and doomed to fail... because the guy writing the fanfiction said so. You could go "Yes, but in Martins world characters like that can't work yadda yadda" but those characters don't have any reason to BE characters in that kind of world. That's why folks complain about Catelyn - that character, as she's originally written by Bujold, is just wish fulfilment and the whole point of her stuff being sf IS to allow for that. Miles' fathers' planet is essentially mediaval, bujold fanfiction of IDK miles' grampas' dad would be exactly like medieval fantasy.

But Cordelia doesn't work as a medieval character! There's no point to any of Bujolds stuff if Cordelia and Aral, or Catelyn and Ned, are BOTH medieval.  That's the whole point, she's NOT medieval and she helps transform a mediaval world into a modern or spacefaring one. Them both being medieval, but acting the same as they do in Bujolds fiction inevitably produces a parody or an "idiot plot". Subjecting that character to an "Idiot plot", if it's not played for laughs, is ludicrously petty and bizzare. On top of being some kind of hate-fiction, like subjecting superhero characters to realistic physics but havig them believe they won't be. People have trouble re-reading GoT because Catelyn can be quite unreadable - and that's perfectly logical, she and Ned are like something out of a Cohen Brothers movie, except it would even be cool if it wasn't stealing all the plot and character from a contemporary author (and if it was actually marketed as a comedy).

Oh, but he did that kind of defacing to Miles too. Tyrion's father is just Miles' father who's tempering and positive-influence wife didn't get a chance to mellow him out. Which is why Tyrions life was a miserable one rather than a more positive one. Oh, and Miles' dad's best buddy had a serial rapist subordinate and that sort of thing was done away with when Miles' mom become his dad's wife, but since Tyrions' dad doesn't have such a figure, he gets to keep the serial rapist. (although to be fair, that was Bujold just ripping De Sade off, but hey, I never said her stuff was all that great to begin with). Oh, oh, and Tyrion losing his nose? Miles keeps losing more and more of his bones after every mission, so Tyrion had to, too, except Miles gets to walk it off to a degree because of high tech medicine but Tyrion can't because of low tech enviroment. They both have breakdowns, too! Fanfiction! It's so cool, right?

The result is bizzare, you get to read about 2  (somewhat more) medieval variants of Miles' families getting into a war with each other. On one side you've got the actual Miles' and his Pa who never got over his Ma not surviving preagnancy, ripped pretty much as is, and on the other hand you've got Miles' ma and pa who never had Miles happen but had a bunch of kids instead and the thing which crippled their kid happened later. Um, if he stole this much from something much older, historical domain or obscure - sure, go ahead, but dude, from a contemporary? Really? And in he first book of your series, not like 11th or something when you can legitly say you've run out of ideas. Eeeeeech...

So Martin mixed in a bunch of other stuff, but remember, you're holding that GoT book when it came out, you're looking at the characters and plots from Barrayar and Warrior's Aprentice both rehashed and, well... defaced is the best I can come up with, like someone drawing moustaches on a poster or something... and that bit of plagiarism is the only interesting thing in it, everything else is just ponderous or gratuitious pandering of the sort why some people only read fantasy and others never do. As I said - folks who picked up the next ASOIAF book were actively peddling it as "more Miles fanfic than the other crap, it's getting better". Not kidding about that.  Although, to be fair, that one's not striaght up plagiarism, or at least I haven't bothered to look at it after the first one turned out to be a literary equivalent of a war crime, and just tried not to think too hard while reading it. Miles fanfiction is still readable stuff.

But, err, GoT ought to, by court order, at the very least come with stickers saying "Spoilers for most of the plot of 'Warriors Apprentice' by Lois McMaster Bujold". And maybe Marting being forced to walk naked through a fantasy & SF convention with someone following him with a bell and shuting "Shame!". Or "Lame!" or something. The reason I feel free to attack or belittle him personally is his attitude of "damn anyone who'd want to write fanfiction in my world" and "I don't steal, I research". It's pretty rich coming from that guy. If he even tried to sue anyone for Tyrion IP infringement, that person could prove he stole him from Bujold in the first place - or that the person plagiarizing Tyrion was actually plagiarizing Bujold and not him.

What I'm trying to say is that - why be so hung up about the quality or lack thereof of the show? The books looked even more ridiculous when they came out, particularly the first one. Outrageously so. The show is actually very faithful to the spirit of the books: the batle of the bastars is all famous sequences from famous movies, and then Winds of Winter is Godfather, etc. 

[Rhodan]

On 27. 6. 2016 at 9:58 PM, lujo said:

Except all Sapkowski ever wrote was Michael Moorcock and Glen Cook fanfiction / plagiarism. But since he was writing in Polish he could literally plagiarize english stuff because he had good reason to beilieve noone who ever read his stuff will read the source material. This was very common with all media in Eastern Europe, not just literature (Yugoslavia, for example, had a thriving punk and heavy metal scene which lived off ripping off foreign songs and having a market which never heard the originals). "The White Wolf" was the nickname of Elic of Melnibone  (a book is even called "The Weird of the White Wolf") who is what Sapkowski's stuff is fanfiction of (among a few other things). (Not that Fantasy in general isn't littered with Elric homages, parodies, and straight-up ripoffs, Martins books are loaded with that, too. The guy who came up with it meant it as a parody of heroes beloved by people with no taste.)

What's funny, though, is that Martins books work on pretty much that same principle. He was ripping off his contemporaries when he wrote most of it, and the books were considered some of the most derivative shlock on the market (a notch above Dungeons and Dragons promo material like RA Salvatore and such, but that's about it), but since he took so long to get on with it both reading as such and the fantasy genre kinda died out so now most folks think fantasy started with him.

It's depressing when you know that him writing this stuff was probably a bitter joke on his part which got way out of hand. I also believe he used to admit it back before it did, too.

I suppose fantasy might actually be rather easy to get into now, you just take any half-decent thing from 40-ish years ago and change the names on stuff. Or not even that, just re-publish under your name, in idk, chinese or russian.

Just for the record, how much is Witcher being plagiat plot-wise?

[HellasLEAF]

1 hour ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

First watch:

well I guess they tied up their TV plots, and rail roades everything into making Danny win in mereen and Jon the KITN for sheer fan service.  

Second watch:

this actually makes...not a lot of sense...actually none, SANSA! USE YOUR WORDS! What the FUCK.

third watch

NO.

 

Let me ask, devil's advocate here.  About the whole KitN vs QitN.

They just stated that winter is coming and it's thought to be the worst one in many years, possibly ever.  These are uncertain times, as a growing fear is coming towards them, one which they do not know and do not fully understand.  They are realizing they need to stand united and fight behind a leader.  Jon Snow however, does know and does understand the coming threat and has built quite the reputation for himself north of the wall and with his bravery on the battlefield.  

They know he is a bastard, but they also know (wrongly yes) that Ned Stark's blood runs through his veins.  It's said by Manderly I believe, that he never thought he would see another king in his lifetime and that they regret backing Rob (true blood heir, like Sansa).  They all do.  

In these uncertain times, is it not possible they are willing to overlook his bastard status and trust he can lead?  Or should they raise their swords to lady Sansa because well, she was born, and that really worked out well for them the last time.  

[lidsa]

43 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

In these uncertain times, is it not possible they are willing to overlook his bastard status and trust he can lead?

It would be totally possible - if Jon had done anything to earn that. But he didn't. If it hadn't been for the Vale knights, he'd died at the Battle for Winterfell. So all the 'leadership' the northerners know from Jon is that he must've been so bad that he pissed off the Night's Watch and made them kill him.

[McBaine]

In King's Landing:

Jaime:“Huh, if I had known that a huge wildfire explosion is really precise, maybe I had't stabbed the mad king in the back... I mean it was pinpoint and no other buildings caught fire, the city didn't burn to the ground, the only lives lost were the ones in the sept. Poor uncle Kevan though. And why is it that every time I return to King's Landing, around the same time one of my kids die?! Well, at least that is not gonna happen anymore... Thanks Cersei... :(“

 

Before the feast in the North:

Davos:“I know Melisandre, we had a complicated relationship... First I hated you, thought your dark magic was wrong and evil and even tried to kill you, then I came to you in trust and begged you to use your magic to bring back a guy I barely knew and did not really ask what happened to Stannis, the man I adore and respect, ad his family. But I am conflicted about Kings anyway. I was a big fat Stannis fanboy, but when he died I was like ''we should not trust in kings, anyway'', but if in the next few hours someone declares some guy King in the North, i will probably change my mind again. The thing is, I made Shireen, a girl I loved like a daughter, a wodden stag, half coated with asbestos. I found this toy now half burned at a stake and wonder what happened to her. Before now I didn't have the time to ask about her I guess. I assumed since you were the only one to return from Stannis' camp everything was fine – but now I'm suspicious again.“

Mel:“Yeah, I burnt her.“

Jon:“Geez, that's a big no no here... You should be put to death for killing an innocent child. I could offer you to ''take the black'' out of pragmatism because we will need your power in the coming battle against the ice zombies, but I will send you away to the south instead. Be banished from the north and far away from any fight for mankinds survival that might or might not happen soon.“

 

At the feast in the North:

Lyanna Mormont:“I supported Jon Snow before it was cool, but it's not to late to jump on the band wagon cowardly northerners.“

Wyman Manderly:“You speak harsh but true, so I say, even if Jon Snow did not avenge the red wedding, because Ramsey wasn't responsible, nor there, and even when he not won the battle but was lucky the Vale came to aid him, and even when he deserted the Night's Watch for all we know (because who would even believe he is unbound from his vows because he died and came to life again), and even if he is a bastard named Snow and the trueborn Lady Sansa of Winterfell sits right next to him this very moment... he is the White Wolf, the King in the North, because there is only one King and his name is Stark … er, Snow!“

 

In Mereen:

Varys:“What a trip. The journey to Dorne takes weeks, but luckily now I know the shortcut back and it happened waaaaaaaaaaay faster. I'm glad Dany doesn't remeber when I tried to poison her and that Jorah Mormont was reporting to me. Also, these Dothraki are surprisingly good sailors. They have never been on a ship before and in season three they all were puking their hearts out. I really hope Dany has forbidden to rape and pillage off screen like she did with that Greyjoy girl, because Dothraki screamers are prone to do that... Let's go to Westeros!!!“

 

In Riverrun:

Arya:"Boy, that was worth it! Stole Wyman Manderly's recipee for pie, disguised as a serving girl somehow (I still can't believe they let me take some faces from the House of Black and White), then I killed two guys, cut them up, spend hours making pie - but then I get impatient and spill the beans to Lord Frey before he even ate anything from it. Revenge is sweet."

[HellasLEAF]

22 minutes ago, lidsa said:

It would be totally possible - if Jon had done anything to earn that. But he didn't. If it hadn't been for the Vale knights, he'd died at the Battle for Winterfell. So all the 'leadership' the northerners know from Jon is that he must've been so bad that he pissed off the Night's Watch and made them kill him.

You've somehow missed the point.  But feel free to disagree.  

Me personally, I'm with Lady Mormont.  

[lidsa]

1 minute ago, HellasLEAF said:

You've somehow missed the point.  But feel free to disagree.  

Me personally, I'm with Lady Mormont.  

No, I get your point. In your opinion the northerners chose Jon because they want a strong leader for what's coming. But show-Jon has never shown himself to be a strong leader. The only time he led anything, his own men shanked him.  

Then again the show-northerners are all idiots, so you're right, they probably would follow someone like Jon.

[Ser Quork]

30 minutes ago, McBaine said:

In King's Landing:

Jaime:“Huh, if I had known that a huge wildfire explosion is really precise, maybe I had't stabbed the mad king in the back... I mean it was pinpoint and no other buildings caught fire, the city didn't burn to the ground, the only lives lost were the ones in the sept. Poor uncle Kevan though. And why is it that every time I return to King's Landing, around the same time one of my kids die?! Well, at least that is not gonna happen anymore... Thanks Cersei... “

 

Before the feast in the North:

Davos:“I know Melisandre, we had a complicated relationship... First I hated you, thought your dark magic was wrong and evil and even tried to kill you, then I came to you in trust and begged you to use your magic to bring back a guy I barely knew and did not really ask what happened to Stannis, the man I adore and respect, ad his family. But I am conflicted about Kings anyway. I was a big fat Stannis fanboy, but when he died I was like ''we should not trust in kings, anyway'', but if in the next few hours someone declares some guy King in the North, i will probably change my mind again. The thing is, I made Shireen, a girl I loved like a daughter, a wodden stag, half coated with asbestos. I found this toy now half burned at a stake and wonder what happened to her. Before now I didn't have the time to ask about her I guess. I assumed since you were the only one to return from Stannis' camp everything was fine – but now I'm suspicious again.“

Mel:“Yeah, I burnt her.“

Jon:“Geez, that's a big no no here... You should be put to death for killing an innocent child. I could offer you to ''take the black'' out of pragmatism because we will need your power in the coming battle against the ice zombies, but I will send you away to the south instead. Be banished from the north and far away from any fight for mankinds survival that might or might not happen soon.“

 

At the feast in the North:

Lyanna Mormont:“I supported Jon Snow before it was cool, but it's not to late to jump on the band wagon cowardly northerners.“

Wyman Manderly:“You speak harsh but true, so I say, even if Jon Snow did not avenge the red wedding, because Ramsey wasn't responsible, nor there, and even when he not won the battle but was lucky the Vale came to aid him, and even when he deserted the Night's Watch for all we know (because who would even believe he is unbound from his vows because he died and came to life again), and even if he is a bastard named Snow and the trueborn Lady Sansa of Winterfell sits right next to him this very moment... he is the White Wolf, the King in the North, because there is only one King and his name is Stark … er, Snow!“

 

In Mereen:

Varys:“What a trip. The journey to Dorne takes weeks, but luckily now I know the shortcut back and it happened waaaaaaaaaaay faster. I'm glad Dany doesn't remeber when I tried to poison her and that Jorah Mormont was reporting to me. Also, these Dothraki are surprisingly good sailors. They have never been on a ship before and in season three they all were puking their hearts out. I really hope Dany has forbidden to rape and pillage off screen like she did with that Greyjoy girl, because Dothraki screamers are prone to do that... Let's go to Westeros!!!“

 

In Riverrun:

Arya:"Boy, that was worth it! Stole Wyman Manderly's recipee for pie, disguised as a serving girl somehow (I still can't believe they let me take some faces from the House of Black and White), then I killed two guys, cut them up, spend hours making pie - but then I get impatient and spill the beans to Lord Frey before he even ate anything from it. Revenge is sweet."

 Loved it.  Please subscribe me to your newsletter.

 

[Neds Secret]

20 hours ago, Alex7s said:

Dont appreciate having lord manderly scolded by a child on the show.

At least he didn't fart when he spoke or tell her to sit down and shut up because he has a huge cock and she does not, so it could have been worse in the D$D universe!

[Low Sparrow]

Ugh. Honestly. I thought this was the worst episode yet. Sure lots of stuff happened. But, truly, nothing of interest. Nothing not totally predictable.

So, we've already seen them rip off Braveheart and Terminator, now they're ripping off Eyes Wide Shut. Lacking context, you know, those silly things 8th graders called themes, the piano was just annoying.

Nothing fit together. Nothing made sense. The show mocked itself. It's officially the most expensive piece of trash ever put together in the history of television.

I don't even want to go into the specific bits of sublime ridiculousness. Up until this point, I was laughing at the weekly narrative plot holes. I'm done laughing. It's now just utterly boring.

[Spaßvogel]

I have a feeling that D&D just want this shizz over with now.  If GRRM gave them the big plot points for the rest of the books, it looks to me that they're taking those big plot points that probably occur over hundreds of pages and just stacking them up together one after another as if they are really consecutive scenes rather than huge spread out events.

Subplots?  We don't need no stinking subplots!  Just hit the big plot points and wrap this story up!  Hasn't it already been confirmed that there are two short seasons in the works?  Because the CGI will take so long?  D&D are just pushing through to the end, logic and distance and the passage of time be damned.

[Banjo]

Hate the fact how Loras went out like a little bitch. One of the proudest and brave warriors in the book. He was young and angry and Jamie remarked on how he reminded him of himself when he was young and was also a great warrior. He might have been completely broken but at least make him take one last stand when his sister's life was threatened. At least make him try to smite some sparrows even if he failed. Instead he died cowering behind Margery

[Ruhail]

13 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Was anyone else reminded of that scene in the IT Crowd when Tommen took a skydive?

 

[Tyche]

This essay here is very good and mentions how Jon KitN could have been handled differently:

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/146556772687/610-and-done

It's not believable they would pass over Sansa like that. In the books she's most probably in the Vale at that time, thus they crown Jon after a possible battle KitN. BUT they could have made Sansa proclaim him KitN. It would have had much more impact:

"If the writers insisted on having Jon be THE KING IN THE NORTH! here’s an easy way to lessen the impact of Sansa being passed over: have her give the inspiring speech. Make her opinions clear and make it obvious that she intends to protect and promote Jon to the best of her ability, take that, Littlefinger. Make it an active decision by Sansa, for the sake of the North (suspend your disbelief at Jon Snow’s competence, everyone) rather than just having her sit quietly next to Jon while the extras ignore the arguments in favour of her inheriting. At least give her agency, if she’s not getting Winterfell."