[Spoilers] Criticize Without Repercussion - one last time ;o)

[David Selig]

8 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

I've got issues with St Tyrion too, so please don't get me wrong-- yet what you've described above, that's little more than being a 'conqueror.' The big game, the game of thrones, I've always taken that to be about the bloodless [and bloody, if necessary] art of diplomacy and political machinations in general.

But TV Tyrion is hopeless at both of these things.

[ummester]

9 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

What's the point of debating with a troll, spouting reductionist nonsense?

Its like arguing with a guy who says Virgil ripped off Homer and Milton ripped off the  Bible. Because he can't tell the difference between a plagiarist and an original piece of work that is influenced and/or inspired by other prior pieces of work.

Ha - and you can? The difference between plagiarism and inspiration is a very fine line, that often comes down to little more than perception. I'd rather be a reductionist than pretentious, or worse, deluded.

10 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Really though? I mean, I get what you're saying but I just don't draw the same conclusion. I love me some Tolkien as well, but if you're trying to tell me his ripping on Biblical, English, Danish, Norse and Welsh mythology is artistic creation in an arguably different manner than Martin's, that would be a very difficult sell.  

Tolkien's unarguably artistic creation was his invention of Elvish et all language(s), even as as philologist it was pretty brilliant. The rest though, I don't see the difference excepting Tolkien's proclivity to black and white. 

The difference is really very simple. It's in 2 very simple questions. Is the world a work of fiction that stands apart from Earth? Is the primary quest or motivation of the antagonist(s) to save or reshape their world somehow?

Tolkien is High fantasy, so is Star Wars and so is Dark Crystal.

ASoIaf, like Conan, is low fantasy just like Beowulf, The Bible (you can argue Jesus was trying to save the world but it was limited to a small area and it was set in the real world) and the Arthurian legend.

Another way

If the Elf wants to kill the Evil Orcish deity to save her Elvish forest world - it's high fantasy. If the Knight wants to kill the dragon to rescue the princess and get laid - it's low fantasy.

Of course, the lines can blur, as they do in The Bible and even ASoIaF. What if the Knight kills the dragon intending to get laid and the princess turns out to be an Elf that wants to save the world from an evil Orcish deity? What if the princess is an evil deity and, in saving her, the Knight turns his low fantasy romp into something with high fantasy trappings? Well then you have to decide what there is more of - how detached is the world from Earth and how world shaping are the characters actions? I'm certain, when all is said and done, ASoIaF/GoTs, sits far more on the low than high fantasy side.

[Survivor92]

3 hours ago, lujo said:

snip

1 hour ago, The Boastful Knight said:

What is your point though? That Martin stole characters and plots? Fine, Show me a contemporary fantasy work that is completely original. Not mostly, completely.  That he shouldn't be called a genious? Because I think everyone who has ever read more fantasy than Tolkien and Martin will admit that Martin is not a genious. And I haven't read any of the books you mentioned, but I have read others and I never called GRRM a genious. And I suggest you read or watch some interviews with Sapkowski ("The Polish Guy"), there are some subtitled ones on yt, because he'll be the first to admit that he has stolen a lot from folktales and whatnot. Hell, if you read one of his books, it becomes apparent, that there is not much originality in his works.

But my real question is. Does any of this matter? Should it influence the enjoyment of these works as a piece of entertainment? Cause the vast majority of readers/watchers won't care about any of this. I know this stuff, and I don't really care. I still love ASOIAF and The Witcher series, it's just I know what they are and I treat them as such.

I agree with The Boastful Knight. Both Sapkowski and Willingham (Fables comics) took (European/Arabian) fairy tales and transferred a more mature version to their fictional worlds. I own the book Sword of Destiny from Sapkowski which consists of six short stories. One is heavily influenced by the Little Mermaid, His creatures come almost directly from Slavic mythology. Why is this a bad thing?

Let's say I am writing a SF book. I can create many new military ranks, doctrines, tactics, names for weapons and uniforms, etc. So instead of saying "the sergeant ordered 2nd company to lay down suppressive fire with their laser blasters", it would read: "the Komwell commanded the X-80C S.O.T. brigade to unleash their psibiomes on the enemy Xsurian." Obviously, this doesn't work.

You need to have certain elements in your story that are easily recognizable by the reader and copying well-known sources is an easy way to do that. In fact, this makes these stories more fun and easier to understand. Sure, Sapkowski and Willingham borrowed heavily from fairy tale stories. GRRM did the same from the War of the Roses, the sources you mentioned, etc. Tolkien used Beowulf, Norse mythology, etc. Why is that a bad thing? You (@Iujo) make it sound as if the first author (and was he even the first? perhaps someone else did it before but that detail was lost in history) who uses a certain combination, like White + Wolf, or people who live in a forest, then owns that concept and that everyone who uses it in the future is ripping them off (followed by you making personal attacks against GRRM, why is that necessary?).

Isn't that what art is all about? I am also talking about music composing and painting here, or sculpting. You recreate and try to improve on previous masters of their art. That's why we have certain trends such as modernism or abstractionism.

Sure, some writers are lazy about it and blatantly copy dwarves, elves and orcs in their story and then suck at delivering a well-thought out and original storyline. Eragon is a good example of this and a poor copy of LotR. But I don't think this applies to GRRM, Tolkien or Sapkowski at all.

[The Lord of Cinder]

5 hours ago, lujo said:

Just like with the Polish guy, except Martin stole from more sources. Seriously "The White Wolf" was the in-series nickname of the albino protagonist of Moorcocks novels where every single white haired fantasy character has been directly lifted from (unless there's now a generation stealing from the idiots who stole from Moorcock).

Ah, this again. As far as I know, the whole plagiarism debacle with Sapkowski is just this. His character bears some superficial resemblance to Moorcocks character in addition to having the nickname "White Wolf". Let's see, you have a character who is white haired, so he stands out, not a hard thing to think of by yourself. All kinds of factors can make a person's hair lose all color early. Okay, this character is a professional monster hunter. How did he become a monster hunter? He went to a school for monster hunters, let's call it the Wolf School! So original! Okay, so he is white haired and went to the Wolf School, what if people call him the "White Wolf"? Not to speak of how the "White Wolf" hardly is the most imaginative nickname in a fantasy setting. Not saying it went like this, and not saying the author didn't purposefully draw inspiration from Moorcocks protagonist, but I really have never seen how this whole thing is plagiarism. As far as I know, all other similarities are so small they're either fantasy tropes or mere coincidences. Who has the rights to a character with cat eyes? Who has the rights to clever dwarf characters? Who has the rights to monster hunters? Who has the rights to "saving the world"-plots?

To say that an author simply being inspired by other works is plagiarism, makes little sense, as basically every work ever made can be viewed as derivative of something else, intentional or not. The Simpson's movie had the whole thing with Springfield being trapped under a dome. Later Stephen King released Under the Dome, and this of course raised some eyebrows. The fact that he had come up with the same idea, was, as he was able to prove, a mere coincidence. Connections can be found everywhere, and you'll probably never come up with ideas or even characters someone else hasn't thought of before.

But I guess I'll just boycott everything with Warcraft since it's world, elves, orcs and dwarves are clearly inspired by the Tolkien equivalents. Hell, I'll boycott the entire fantasy genre because almost all of it is in some way inspired by Tolkien. Oh, but wait, Tolkien is heavily inspired by a myriad of other things. I guess I'll just boycott literature as a whole. By the way, I am aware you don't mind the "plagiarism" that much, but I've seen people who have boycotted things because of petty similarities. A certain youtuber boycotted all the Witcher games because of this "plagiarism". So you're boycotting an entire trilogy of games made by people who have nothing to do with the so called plagiarist, games that have a story that happens after the books, all this because the main character has some similarities with a character from some other work of fiction? Good job.

Edit: I am aware how off-topic this is. Only on-topic posts from me from now on!

[Xcorpyo001]

2 hours ago, Primalsplit said:

Steel for Humans, Valyrian Steel for Monsters.

 

For those who also play the Withcher 3 game, there are two easter eggs connected to the asoiaf/got universe. One is the sword called Longclaw, and the second is a pirate fortress that has a nice set of Sky Cells, complete with the corpse of Tyrion Lannister. I guess Withcher realism trumps got realism here.

I guess the got team decided to return the favor with an easter egg of their own. Ghost being in the room would have sold it a little better, but beggers can’t be choosers I guess.

 

[Low Sparrow]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:59 PM, Nymeria_Stark said:

FIRST of all, the first several minutes were VERY confusing, at least until I saw the Wildfire, then somehow I just knew it was under the Sept.

SECOND... ARYA ARYA ARYA!!! Need I say more??

THIRD... THEY FREAKING CONFIRMED R+L=J!!!!

 

In my eyes, I'd say D&D have MORE than redeemed themselves after that heartbreaking Hodor moment. What do y'all think??

We think you're in the wrong place ... read the title of this thread once again ... slowly.

[Alex7s]

Dont appreciate having lord manderly scolded by a child on the show.

[the tower of albion]

39 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

For those who also play the Withcher 3 game, there are two easter eggs connected to the asoiaf/got universe. One is the sword called Longclaw, and the second is a pirate fortress that has a nice set of Sky Cells, complete with the corpse of Tyrion Lannister. I guess Withcher realism trumps got realism here.

 

I guess the got team decided to return the favor with an easter egg of their own. Ghost being in the room would have sold it a little better, but beggers can’t be choosers I guess.

 

 

Where? I haven't visited that location. Is it in the dlc?

[The Lord of Cinder]

7 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

On another note, I don't remember who asked, but "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" (then Dany will have another child) refers to a young Dornishman from the royal family in the novels. He goes to Meereen to ask for Dany's hand. He foolishly steps into the dragon dungeon thinking he can take control of a dragon, and is promptly melted down. The sun being the Martell symbol, he was the sun that traveled from the west to go down in the east. But that won't be in the show either.

Nor will the "Three times will you be betrayed" line, since one of the betrayals was Daario Naharis switching sides before the siege of Meereen. But he won't switch sides now. So that whole prophecy is moot as well.

I love that theory! Reminds me a bit of the Polish version of the Faustian legend, where the protagonist agrees that the Devil can take his soul if he visits Rome. Then of course the Devil gets what he wants when the protagonist visits an inn named Rome. Perhaps Daenerys is the Devil. I mean, she has got fire breathing dragons, after all, and I imagine she would be akin to the Devil for a lot of the Westerosi. And, prepare to get your minds blown right now. The dragon has three heads. Know what has three faces? The Devil, at least in Inferno by Dante Alighieri.

Yeah, I should probably stop.

Right now, in the show, at least, Daenerys sure does look like some kind of Devil, only that the writers don't seem to be aware of it at all. The Daenerys and Cersei parallels are too real. Both kill whoever they don't agree with, both burned down the most important building of a religion, both seem to have similarities with the Mad King, and both wish to control Westeros. Meanwhile one is depicted as a hero, while the other has become our new Ramsay.

[The Lord of Cinder]

1 minute ago, the tower of albion said:

Where? I haven't visited that location. Is it in the dlc?

Skellige, a small island not far from Kaer Trolde. Think the fort is called Kaer Armhult.

Can't believe those are the only two ASoIaF/GoT references. That game is ludicrously full of references.

[the tower of albion]

1 minute ago, The Lord of Cinder said:

Skellige, a small island not far from Kaer Trolde. Think the fort is called Kaer Armhult.

Can't believe those are the only two ASoIaF/GoT references. That game is ludicrously full of references.

Cheers. I'll have a look see this evening. Skellige is simply a stunning location to wonder around. (I can't even bring my self to hunt any deer there I just let them scamper by.)

[The Lord of Cinder]

22 minutes ago, Alex7s said:

Dont appreciate having lord manderly scolded by a child on the show.

Not to speak of how that child shaming them all made them go: "Woooo, Jon Snow 4 life <3". She even shamed lord Cerwyn, who didn't even get a call to arms, as Preston Jacobs pointed out in his video. Not to speak of how that child then went on to support Jon Snow, a bastard, when Sansa Stark was sitting right next to him.

But I was kinda happy to see Lord Manderly because it made me think of the books.

Hey, here's an idea! Can someone rewrite this entire season, begin with the same plots as D&D, but add realistic consequences and characters who act like they should? I can't imagine how different episode 2 would already be from the one we got.

[Paxter Redwyne]

Wildfire looks pretty safe for me. No buildings nearby caught fire and everyone seems to be happy. Aerys the Mad would be pissed if he saw that his wildfire didn't burned whole city.

Long live Queen Cersei the First! Without heir! Without connection to royal family! Without support of the lords! Without... nah screw it. Dumb&Dumber like stupid pseudo historical things so they should know about byzantine empress Irene who have usurped her own son and then left him to death in dungeon. Soon people rose against her and she was overthrown and people elected some random minister as new emperor.

But looks that everyone is fine with cersei as queen. Yeah, surely everyone in real world people would support person who just killed pope.

 

Sansa is happy to see Jon king. Yeah, seems legit.

Lyanna Mormont is annoying.

Davos is still derp.

And Tyrion was appointed as new hand of the queen because "we wanted it to happen"

Arya left Faceless Men because she didn't wanted to kill people, but she still kills people.  

Knights of Vale supports Jon as king in the North, sure why not.

I wonder what kind of justice sand fakes want? There are no more lannisters. (carol and larry not included)

Daario the sellsword is best choice for diplomat.

Jon hangs boy younger than bran is too spooked to execute melisandre.

Randyll don't care about his priceless sword being stolen.

Bran cares more about TOJ than about war with white walkers. 

Lancel follows some random child for no reason.

Kingsguard in show sucks. They seem to not understand that their main job is to protect king.

Olenna became new lady of reach, even though she is from house redwyne, not house tyrell. 

Dany forgot that Varys wanted to poison her in season one.

And Lyanna have quite fat face. I wonder what Robert have seen in her?

[Graeham]

Tommen's death: It was pretty disappointing - there really should have been a scene where he confronted his mother and then jumped out of the window or ended up getting killed by Ser Gregor after stupidly trying to attack Cersei.

Arya killing Walder Frey: I honestly don't understand why Arya is such a popular character in the show when her storyline and abilities are so inconsistent. Where did she get the serving girls' face from? Why did nobody notice her killing Walder's sons, let alone turning them into a pie? Why didn't she let Walder eat the pie before boasting about what it contained? Why was he alone in the feast room with not a single guard watching out for him - especially when he's well aware of how many enemies he has?

Olenna/Ellaria: They both mentioned 'justice'. Have they already forgotten that  they're directly responsible for leading Cersei down her current path? Olenna had Joffrey killed and Ellaria had Myrcella killed. The former, at least, can be justified - but the latter? 

[The Lord of Cinder]

So many people calling this one of the best episodes so far. So many people calling this the best season so far. It would be interesting to know how many of the people who waited for the show with anticipation and watched season 1 when it aired (or when it was first available to them in their country) still think this show is amazing. I have a feeling that a lot of the people who praise this season are ones who jumped on the wagon once the show got hugely popular and everyone started to speak about it. But maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better. Sometimes I wonder if there's something wrong with me for no longer liking this show.

[The Knight in Motley]

37 minutes ago, The Lord of Cinder said:

Skellige, a small island not far from Kaer Trolde. Think the fort is called Kaer Armhult.

Can't believe those are the only two ASoIaF/GoT references. That game is ludicrously full of references.

In the first game, one of the peasants is whistling 'The Imperial March' from Star Wars. There is even a Snow White and the Seven Dwarves setup in the third game.

[Primalsplit]

1 hour ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

For those who also play the Withcher 3 game, there are two easter eggs connected to the asoiaf/got universe. One is the sword called Longclaw, and the second is a pirate fortress that has a nice set of Sky Cells, complete with the corpse of Tyrion Lannister. I guess Withcher realism trumps got realism here.

 

I guess the got team decided to return the favor with an easter egg of their own. Ghost being in the room would have sold it a little better, but beggers can’t be choosers I guess.

 

 

For he who long fights monsters turns monster himself. And the, uh... abyss gazes into him, also.

[Barr1stanTheBold]

Really the fact that Oberyn's whore is the leader of Dorne is the biggest thing that pisses me off. Would it have been really hard to cast a beautiful woman to portray Princess Arianne for the show? Da faq

[The Knight in Motley]

31 minutes ago, The Lord of Cinder said:

Not to speak of how that child shaming them all made them go: "Woooo, Jon Snow 4 life <3". She even shamed lord Cerwyn, who didn't even get a call to arms, as Preston Jacobs pointed out in his video. Not to speak of how that child then went on to support Jon Snow, a bastard, when Sansa Stark was sitting right next to him.

But I was kinda happy to see Lord Manderly because it made me think of the books.

Hey, here's an idea! Can someone rewrite this entire season, begin with the same plots as D&D, but add realistic consequences and characters who act like they should? I can't imagine how different episode 2 would already be from the one we got.

Wow, actual consequences?  I don't know if you can do that..the vast majority of the major players would be dead.

The Sand Snakes are butched by Hotah, even with a knife in his back.

Davos flat out murders the Red Woman in Episode 1, Jon has to struggle with executing him for murder or not, all the while dodging Nights Watch who want to burn his body before he becomes a WW.  He still comes back to life (reasons) without a haircut: Therefore He won't have a manbun.

The northern lords instantly rally around Sansa, because they remember.  They easily take a mostly empty Winterfell, because Ramsey is a Psychopath and garners zero loyalty.

Blackfish dies on screen.

A bloated, infested body of a young westorosi girl whose been stabbed to death washes up on a pier in Braavos, and is taken to the house of B/W.

Littlefinger gets thrown out the moondoor for lying to Sweetrobin and Royce about some bullshit Bolton kidnapping and losing Sansa. Gilly is instantly accepted into the Citadel so they can study her incredible slow-growing child.

Sam gets arrested for theft and hung while his father looks on.

The Tyrell's follow through with their military coup, and spare the High Sparrow so Cersei will still go to trial.  While they are at it, they sacrifice the 20 good men it would take to butcher Ser Gregor the Zombie no one loves.

Cersei and Pycelle sneak out, and then...Kings Landing explodes and burns to the ground when a drunk watchmen stumbles into a warehouse full of wildfire.

 

[Tyche]

Someone already posted this?

http://www.mtv.com/news/2897905/game-of-thrones-recap-wildfire-of-the-vanities/

 

"The High Sparrow sends Cersei’s bitchy cousin Lancel to retrieve her from her eternal Sunday Funday, but on the way, Lancel gets distracted by a Little Bird. The Bird scampers beneath the city, where nothing is stored, nope, nothing here, just lots of tombs and absolutely no stockpiles of neon explosives. Lancel follows him, because any child in King’s Landing who moves with a spring in his step and a sense of purpose instead of dragging listlessly through the streets, waiting for the sweet release of death, is suspicious."