what if Robert met Barristan instead of Rhaegar at the trident?

[Marcus corvinus]

Robert defeated Rhaegar at the trident when they met mano o mano on the battlefield. Now there many reasons have been speculated for rhaegar's defeat. Robert was better than him, on horse back robert's hammer had an advantage over sword wielding opponents, robert was in rage mode etc.

But what if Robert met Barristan on the field that day? Barristan was 47 at the time. But mind you although this might seem like advanced age to most, a military man who's been training all his life and has fighting and constantly maintaining his fitness can still be just as potent at this age. And this is the ideal age where the fabled '' old man strength '' comes into play. And barristan proves that even in his advanced age he's still in the game as in his 57th year he wins the tourney at kings landing.

Yes robert being younger as the benefit of overall agility but on horseback that might not be all that useful but rather one's dexterity, horsemanship and presence of mind may be greater assets. Robert is beastly strong but barristan is no slouch either and above that barristan has vast, VAST combat experience. In his own words he's won more single combats than any other living man. And he did defeat a hulking brute like robert once, maelys the monstrous; though he was only 23 at that time. While on the other hand robert was relatively inexperienced in comparison. Hell, robert may have just been a fanboy of barristan when he was little.

So who do you think would've won if these two met on the field? This fight was very plausible, in fact more plausible than rhaegar vs robert. As the crown prince/king were often not allowed to go on single combats in real life but they rather preferred to be the general waiting with the reserve force. A daring lord like robert and a famous knight like barristan where quite likely to meet in battle.

[Nyrhex]

Robert wouled have killed him and went on to kill Rhaegar. The likely outcomes:

Robert might be injured in the end that he would arrive a week after Ned, not about a day like in canon.

The Selmys are even more of a recluse house. Barristan is the only mentioing of the house, and he dies fighting the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands to protect the prince that kidnapped his betrothed but lacked the stones to face him in battle.

Rhaegar is not remebered as fondly, because he most likely dies during the rout in an inglourious manner (the battle was already pretty much lost by the time he died). Not so good a song as in canon.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Pretty sure Barristan was already wounded several times before he would have even fought Robert, so I'd have to go with him dying, moreso than if they had fought at the beginning. I would still give the nod to Robert though.

Not sure I get the where the notion that the Semlys are reclusive house. We know from the book who Selmy's father is and that his cousin became heir and married his betrothed when he joined the KG. We also know they supported Renly when he declared himself king. They are hardly prominent, but they are mentioned more than most houses, especially landed knights.

[Adam Yozza]

It depends. I'm not clear on whether Barristan was injured before Rhaegar fought Robert or if he got his injuries by trying to get to his prince while the one-v-one was happening.

If it's the former, then Robert would win. His size, strength and not being injured would give him enough of an advantage to win. Though I doubt he'd have walked away unscathed. If the latter then it could go either way though I'm inclined to say Barristan would win, narrowly.

[thi4f]

It seems all posters (to that point) think it's close. Prime Robert was always mentioned as top tier fighter, superelite, but so is Barristan. The latter's age wouldn't matter, because his prime was very long as he didn't rely on athleticism so much.

I give slight advantage to Robert because he had better suited weapon for this duel. Fighting on horseback or being more/less angry or motivated doesn't matter for these two.

[Nyrhex]

In all of the books the only time we hear about Selmys is with Barristan. They lack any sort of history, and Renly was naming house from the Stomrlands and the Reach regardless of dominance. He also named Hightower, who stayed home, as one of the swords that would make him king. For a Marcher house they are distinctly lacking from any history of the region. We know about two members of Barristan's house because they are Selmy's father and Selmy's replacement as lord after the former died. They don't do anything, thier banners are never seen in any of the battles with Stormlords. They are never mentioned in the history of the Stormlands aside of lip service in the world book that remembered that such a house exists, and suddenly the house that has far less info on than any other around it is one of " The greatest of the Marcher lords", even though they were a knightly house during the actual books. Any importance of the house, from the beginning of recorded history, comes from Barristan, and the world book is suffering from the curse of fluff books - it uses bits and pieces of info from the books and makes way too much of it to fill another book for the extra cash. So a knightly house with no background whatsoever is mentioned as "one of the greatest" becuse those are the only known houses from the Stormlands' portion of the Dornish Marches, and they shoved it next to 3 known houses, each with far more background than the Selmys.

[Universal Sword Donor]

They are also listed as one of the principal noble houses in the SL in aGoT, like the Glovers and Tallharts. Baelish is listed for the Arryns. Same with Clegane and the Lannisters. You make far too much of it. 

[Raisin' Bran]

There are many factors to account for in this hypothetical.

To begin I should note that Robert would be looking to fight Rhaegar and not Barristan, so there is a distraction factor which favors the kingsguard member.

There are few ways the two could have been brought together. Lances at the beginning or finding each other in single combat in a melee situation mounted or afoot at any given point thereafter.

My understanding may be flawed but I would think that a charge of mounted lances is the most likely way that Barry and Robert would have fought. Robert is known to lead from the front, and Barry is a good candidate to be in the vanguard as well. Since Barry is the much better jouster, it stands to reason that he could have ended Robert's war right then.

I find it unlikely that Rhaegar would have been part of a mounted charge, but you never know.

Second, if the two were to cross paths in a melee situation, I think mounted Robert swinging that war hammer gives and edge to the rebel. It would seem difficult to dodge a warhammer while wearing armor on horseback. But I think Barry would have stood a greater chance than Rhaegar.

Third, on foot. I think Barry has the edge again as he is slightly quicker.

Barry said that Rhaegar was a decent fighter and Rhaegar did wound Robert when they squared off at the Trident. I also believe the consensus is that Ser Barristan is still a better fighter.

I think of the given hypothetical meetings, 2 of the 3 have Barristan winning.

 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

the same outcome... the fight on horseback actually favoured Rhaegar as he was the better jouster and a warhammer is even deadlier on foot because Bob would hit him faster and more despite 1 hit being enough from a guy with "freakish" strenght

even prime barristan wouldn´t have any advantage against prime Robert on foot 1v1 UNLESS bob agreed to fight with a sword or on horseback as barri was the better jouster and swordsman aswell

it´s a legendary swordsman with great feats vs a legendary warhammer user (the superior weapon of the 2) with great feats, but with better reach, power (counts a lot in plate armour) and coupled with good speed/agility (he killed thousands of wild boars using agility with a lance)...

both in their prime i would slightly favour robert on 1v1 on foot like i would if he fought dayne or jaime

at the trident, with barri not on his prime... Robert wins

it's always the same to me on this matches, i put prime Robert, prime Barristan, Dayne and two handed Jaime on a tier above everybody else, then i slightly give the advantage to Bob on 1v1 foot duels because of genetics and weapon mastery (feats are the same as barri, lots), on Barri if it's on horseback, and on Dayne/Barri/Jaime if it´s swords only... (then we have guys like daemon bf, prime lyonel, aemon dk but those are like those players from years back that have less training knowledge and probably worse armour and nutrition, but still superior in skill to asoiaf guys who are not those 4) and freaks like Gregor that need special plans or a warhammer hit to die

[Nyrhex]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They are also listed as one of the principal noble houses in the SL in aGoT, like the Glovers and Tallharts. Baelish is listed for the Arryns. Same with Clegane and the Lannisters. You make far too much of it. 

Minor derail

 

Baelish and Clegane are only houses for a couple of generations and have more history than the Selmys. Glover and Tallhart are masterly houses for the Starks, with history that goes back and more than three memebers (two of which are only known for being Barristan's family). We hear the story of Clegane and Baelish, we see the members of the family/household. We see the Glovers and Tallharts lead thier hosts to war. We hear fuck all about the Selmys in all of recorded history. When the Marcher lords went to war in the Vulture Hunt, we hear about the other three but nothing about Selmy. You can retcon later that they were there and that they were in this and that battle and event and marriage etc etc. They currently don't exist aside of a paper-thin background for Barristan.

They are listed as principle houses in AGOT, when Selmy is one of the only names that we know of from the Stormlands and the world is not that fleshed out. They are not a principle house in ACOK (despite Renly naming them as supporting him), in ASOS (despite later being named as supporting Stannis), or AFFC. They are mentioned in ADWD so they are mentioned in the houses sworn to the Baratheons... next to:

* Seaworth (an entirely new knightly house)

* Farring (a Crownlands house with Stannis from the start)

* Meadows (a house from the Reach)

* Tarth

* Connington (a knightly house with one tenth of it's lands from before RR)

* Morrigen

* Wylde

* Fell (was not mentioned in AGOT, but a lordly house fleshed out later)

* Grandison (was not mentioned in AGOT, but a lordly house fleshed out later)

* Peasebury (was not mentioned in AGOT, but a lordly house fleshed out later)

* Mertyns (was not mentioned in AGOT, but a lordly house fleshed out later)

* Buckler (was not mentioned in AGOT, but a lordly house fleshed out later)

Trant, Penrose, Errol, and Estermont are listed as Stormlords in AGOT but not as principle Stormlords in ADWD. 

 

House Selmy was forgotton for three books, then Barristan makes mention of his family and the Selmys are remembered over 4 Stormlords who are forgotton. They are no principle house, they only exist in living memory because of Barristan. I'll give you that house Errol has about as little history as the Selmys, but the Selmys are just a small time Stormlands house. Maybe "recluse" is the wrong word here, but they have no real shared history with anyone in recorded history before Barristan.

[Marcus corvinus]

12 hours ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

the same outcome... the fight on horseback actually favoured Rhaegar as he was the better jouster and a warhammer is even deadlier on foot because Bob would hit him faster and more despite 1 hit being enough from a guy with "freakish" strenght

even prime barristan wouldn´t have any advantage against prime Robert on foot 1v1 UNLESS bob agreed to fight with a sword or on horseback as barri was the better jouster and swordsman aswell

it´s a legendary swordsman with great feats vs a legendary warhammer user (the superior weapon of the 2) with great feats, but with better reach, power (counts a lot in plate armour) and coupled with good speed/agility (he killed thousands of wild boars using agility with a lance)...

both in their prime i would slightly favour robert on 1v1 on foot like i would if he fought dayne or jaime

at the trident, with barri not on his prime... Robert wins

it's always the same to me on this matches, i put prime Robert, prime Barristan, Dayne and two handed Jaime on a tier above everybody else, then i slightly give the advantage to Bob on 1v1 foot duels because of genetics and weapon mastery (feats are the same as barri, lots), on Barri if it's on horseback, and on Dayne/Barri/Jaime if it´s swords only... (then we have guys like daemon bf, prime lyonel, aemon dk but those are like those players from years back that have less training knowledge and probably worse armour and nutrition, but still superior in skill to asoiaf guys who are not those 4) and freaks like Gregor that need special plans or a warhammer hit to die

Barristan defeated Maelys the monstrous, another flail/mace user. Maelys was stronger than robert, he killed a destrier with a punch and pulled a man's head off bare-handed. And on foot you can dodge and launch counter strikes at the enemy. Barristan would've simply dodged the bull-headed roberts blows until robert tired and then perhaps land a few cuts to his arm pits or joints...bringing him down

[Nyrhex]

2 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

Barristan defeated Maelys the monstrous, another flail/mace user. Maelys was stronger than robert, he killed a destrier with a punch and pulled a man's head off bare-handed. And on foot you can dodge and launch counter strikes at the enemy. Barristan would've simply dodged the bull-headed roberts blows until robert tired and then perhaps land a few cuts to his arm pits or joints...bringing him down

You are thinking Gregor here. Big brute who relies on his rage and strength. Robert was a warrior who used his training and tactics on top of his super strength. Completely different animal.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

3 hours ago, Marcus corvinus said:

Barristan defeated Maelys the monstrous, another flail/mace user. Maelys was stronger than robert, he killed a destrier with a punch and pulled a man's head off bare-handed. And on foot you can dodge and launch counter strikes at the enemy. Barristan would've simply dodged the bull-headed roberts blows until robert tired and then perhaps land a few cuts to his arm pits or joints...bringing him down

Barristan killed Maelys on horseback, i did say in his prime he would beat prime robert on horseback or sword only duel...

Robert is a different beast than Maelys, a mace is not exactly a warhammer, and heck not BOB's WARHAMMER wich we have the author specifics on it, by the way the same author that qualifies Robert's power as freakish... so no, Maelys is not much stronger than Robert, at most he's almost gregor in power... but regarding skill? heck no... robert is not maelys, he's better

bull-headed? is this the big guy = brutish with no skill syndrome?? a guy who almost kills jon con (who killed denys and almost hoster) with a sword while wounded and kills 6 + myles mooton??...

Per author Robert's prowess with a warhammer is legendary, Maelys never was mentioned at this level of skill and has as much chance against Bob as a weaker Gregor...

You say Barri could land a few cuts to a guy charging him with 1 hit kills in armoured combat? that would be fine if Bob didn´t move, but a guy with more power to move in plate and agility to kill wild boars at the last stroke is not going to get cut without killing Barri first... even barristan is not yoda, dodging jedi style in a 1v1 on foot armoured duel is almost impossible, he would need extreme luck to cut a gap while a guy as skilled as robert doesn´t one-shot him

again, sword only or horseback prime barri is a master... on foot with personal weapons no way, prime robert has all the advantages (they are not jedi and barri isn´t much faster than any other knight, no one is in plate armour)

[devilish]

Anybody can kill anybody in a fight. However If Barristan wasn’t injured and if it’s a 1 vs 1 fight (similar to Rhaegar vs Robert) then I can see Barristan winning

Robert and Barristan are both Stormlanders. Barristan was born from a knight of Harvest Hall, which is rather interesting. The Stormlanders are known for their fierce warriors but the location of Harvest Hall is pretty strategic.  Its located close to the Dornish lands (who had produced some remarkable swordsmen including Sir Arthur Dayne and Oberyn Martell) and 2 other powerhouses ie Highgarden and Horn Hill (ancestral home for the Tarlys). Its amazing how that’s relatively small stretch of land have so many great swordsmen (you might even add Hightower to that region too)

As a young man Barristan must have been exposed to some of the finest knights and fighting styles in Westeros, all built around skill.  As a knight’s son Barristan knew that his very survival depended on being able to fight. His aim as a young man would probably be to become a great fighter and earn his stripes as knight. He would keep fighting to justify his salary for most of his life and possibly earn enough gold to retire when he’s too old. This hypothesis is justified by the fact that he was confident enough to joust at age 10, he earnt his knighthood at age 16 and around age 23 he was able to kill Mealys Blackfire (ie someone who made his bones in the Golden Company ie the elite sellsword company in Essos) earning his white cloak in the process. Few years before the rebellion, Barristan was able to infiltrate into Duskendale and free Aerys who was being held hostage. This guy wasn’t only trained to fight, he was the perfect fighting machine, a killer who could beat a person swiftly in various situations (jousts, wars, duels, infiltration etc). 

Now lets focus on Robert. At 20 he was at his peak of his strength and considering his size he was pretty strong.Being a Lord Paramount his training pre-rebellion was mainly built around sparring however by the time of Battle of the trident he had gained enough experience not to get disoriented while fighting in a warzone. However is that enough to take this perfect fighing machine (who was in his mid 40s at the time ie the perfect balance between experience and strength) down in a 1 to 1 duel?

Another key argument that needs to be discussed is the emotion state. Robert was a person driven by instinct. Prior to the rebellion he wasn’t considered a great fighter but during the rebellion he was a fighting machine. What was the reason behind such change? The Targs stole the love of his life.  However what would happen if he met Barristan? This guy was a living legend, someone, Robert admired. He was also from the Stormlands like he was and he would probably grew up hearing stories about his valour. On the other hand, Barristan was a cold killer whose used to face people who are angry (Maelys Blackfyre felt they stole his birthright) and whose been programmed to kill swiftly so he can regroup and defend his prince. Privately he might have sympathised with the boy but this was war, and the guy had enough experience in war to know that there’s no space for emotions when fighting. That’s a lesson Robert might not have yet learnt. 

Its Gregor vs Oberyn once again with the difference that Barristan will not be playing around this time round

So yes, if I was a betting man I think Barristan would have won
 

[Byfort of Corfe]

There always was a big difference between jousting and using a lance in combat.  The jousting as described by GRRM in GoT and ASOIAF is the one on one joust of the late/High Middle Ages.  And that is why, as Jorah says to Dany "I never was a tournament Knight". 

 

A battle would be much closer to very early tournaments, such as those in the 12th Century that were dominated by William Marshal.  Lances were broken quickly and men fought with their secondary arms, swords, axes and warhammers.  Even when a one on one affair, such as that between Robert the Bruce and Sir Henry de Bohun at Bannockburn happened, you see a great difference between real life combat and the dance that tournaments were.  At Bannockburn Sir Henry de Bohun, in the English van spotted Robert the Bruce riding a palfrey.  Sir Henry charged with couched lance, Robert, at the last moment, moved aside and walloped Sir Henry in the head with his axe, killing him (and incidentally breaking the shaft on his axe).  Now if we look at what GRRM says of Robert Baratheon we know that Robert is also not a tournament knight, he doesn't care for the joust, instead he loves to "smash" with his hammer.  Robert would not have entered into a chivalric type lance to lance duel with Barristan.  At this time and on a battlefield I would give Robert better than even odds to win, after all at this time Barristan isn't even the best knight on the Kingsguard, that's Sir Arthur Dayne.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Its Gregor vs Oberyn once again with the difference that Barristan will not be playing around this time round

So yes, if I was a betting man I think Barristan would have won
 

We are in polar oposites then bro...

I would bet on Prime Robert against Prime Selmy let alone RR Selmy... Only because i would bet on him against anyone 1v1 on foot... he's not Gregor, grrm considers is prowess with his warhammer legendary, that alone would trump even legendary swords like barri on 1v1 foot duels... bot counting the genetics who favour robert aswell (power, reach, pain resistance) and even agility isn't far from barri by his wild boar killing method...

Feats they are actually the 2 who have more, horseback or sword duels i would vote PRIME barri aswell, on foot with personal weapons nope, my vote would be to prime bob against any selmy, on the trident it would end faster than a legend like selmy deserves

[BlueNightzx]

Dead barry most likely, prime bob was a monster. and prime bob in "you stole my woman" mood is even worse.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Barristan would've likely landed a couple of good hits in, but a pissed-off Baratheon is formidable enough to take down damn near any foe. Barry might be one of the best swordsmen in Westerosi history, but he's going up against a giant with a warhammer who fights like a demon.

[John Doe]

Robert would have killed Barristan and then moved on to kill his prince.

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/31/2016 at 10:26 AM, Marcus corvinus said:

Robert defeated Rhaegar at the trident when they met mano o mano on the battlefield. Now there many reasons have been speculated for rhaegar's defeat. Robert was better than him, on horse back robert's hammer had an advantage over sword wielding opponents, robert was in rage mode etc.

But what if Robert met Barristan on the field that day? Barristan was 47 at the time. But mind you although this might seem like advanced age to most, a military man who's been training all his life and has fighting and constantly maintaining his fitness can still be just as potent at this age. And this is the ideal age where the fabled '' old man strength '' comes into play. And barristan proves that even in his advanced age he's still in the game as in his 57th year he wins the tourney at kings landing.

Yes robert being younger as the benefit of overall agility but on horseback that might not be all that useful but rather one's dexterity, horsemanship and presence of mind may be greater assets. Robert is beastly strong but barristan is no slouch either and above that barristan has vast, VAST combat experience. In his own words he's won more single combats than any other living man. And he did defeat a hulking brute like robert once, maelys the monstrous; though he was only 23 at that time. While on the other hand robert was relatively inexperienced in comparison. Hell, robert may have just been a fanboy of barristan when he was little.

So who do you think would've won if these two met on the field? This fight was very plausible, in fact more plausible than rhaegar vs robert. As the crown prince/king were often not allowed to go on single combats in real life but they rather preferred to be the general waiting with the reserve force. A daring lord like robert and a famous knight like barristan where quite likely to meet in battle.

even if bob met Barristan, barristan would get wounded just the same and then bob would find Rhaegar and would kill him so the story could continue as written. simple really