US Elections 2016: Why we can't have nice things

[The Fallen]

10 hours ago, StepStark said:

 

Do you have any idea what she suggested? Can you imagine what's going to happen if she goes on with her plan to set a no fly zone over Syria? Is it really that hard to think what will be Russian response if one of their planes is shut down by a US missile? Just look how did US top general reacted when Congress proposed the same thing:

 

If the US shot down a Russian plane? I guess the Russians would throw some US diplomats out of Russia. Maybe throw out some US citizens that may reside there. I'm sure there are already sanctions against the US in place, so that's taken care of.

Basically, they'd do what they did to Turkey when Turkey shot down a Russian plane. 

[StepStark]

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Just to jump in-  there is an absurd amount of forensic evidence to indicate that the Russian state hacked the DNC. The US government declaring that this occurred is the end of months of independent investigation. Even a basic search pulls up piles of public, independent research indicating this.

Forensic evidence??? Do you know what that means even??? Can you copy a link to any source that shows any of those "forensic evidence"?

11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Believing that this isn't the case is about as crackpot as you can get. The logs and data are there for anyone to see and look at themselves. 

Oh yeah, it's crackpot not to believe something that still didn't result in a definite conclusion or undeniable evidence. Must be.

[Ice Queen]

4 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I don't think I can rationally answer irrational claims that people hate her just because she's an intelligent woman. I don't know what's intelligent about her in the first place. You're the one who's not addressing my point about her idea of a no fly zone. Only an idiot could plan something like that.

What country are you from? Russia?

 

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, The Fallen said:

If the US shot down a Russian plane? I guess the Russians would throw some US diplomats out of Russia. Maybe throw out some US citizens that may reside there. I'm sure there are already sanctions against the US in place, so that's taken care of.

Basically, they'd do what they did to Turkey when Turkey shot down a Russian plane. 

Exactly. 

[alguien]

10 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I don't think I can rationally answer irrational claims that people hate her just because she's an intelligent woman. I don't know what's intelligent about her in the first place. You're the one who's not addressing my point about her idea of a no fly zone. Only an idiot could plan something like that.

Try learning to read read then, because it was already stated. 

Quote

You don't graduate from Wellesley and go on to Yale if you're an idiot. 

But then, you've pretty much made it clear you're not interested in actual discourse. 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

10 minutes ago, StepStark said:

This is probably the strangest post in this debate. Ever heard of petrodollars? Can I recommend William Engdal and his researches? They are available in English and German, and they are a great read precisely about international trade and the role of petrodollars.

And yes, Qaddafi was obviously not capable of pulling it, because he couldn't protect himself from Hillary and her street troops, whose lynching of Qaddafi she infamously celebrated.

I suggest that you read what I said first. I didn't say that Chinese or whoever automatically agree with every foreign criticism because that would be absurd statement. I was talking about Americans that dismiss someone just because he is Russian or Chinese or Syrian. There are many Americans with that way of thinking. Coincidentally, those are usually the same ones that have firm "opinions" on other countries and their "dictators", even though they only get the info from corrupted mainstream media. That kind of mentality exists only in USA and UK, at least in this measure. Just look at the number of people here that don't talk about my points, but try to expose me as Putin troll or something.

Yes, I have heard of petrodollars, and I knew that's exactly what you were referencing.The fact that you even bring up that inane conspiracy proves to me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes, Chinese are very ready to dismiss the opinions of anyone who isn't Chinese. I don't see any evidence that the very human distrust of outsiders is somehow an Anglo characteristic.

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, The Fallen said:

If the US shot down a Russian plane? I guess the Russians would throw some US diplomats out of Russia. Maybe throw out some US citizens that may reside there. I'm sure there are already sanctions against the US in place, so that's taken care of.

Basically, they'd do what they did to Turkey when Turkey shot down a Russian plane. 

That's a serious delusion right there. Luckily, US generals seem to know better. Sadly, an insane person who doesn't know better will enter the White House soon - Hillary Clinton.

And I know this will sound arrogant, but I really can't discuss these things here anymore, if so many of you have no idea what's happening in the real world. I speak some Russian and I'm trying to follow their news outlets. And I'm also following news and analysis on my native language. Expecting Russia to react the same way against USA as it did against Turkey (which presents no serious threat to them, and never did, since Turkey lost all of its 11 wars with Russia), is a grave delusion. A war with Turkey would've been a distraction for Russia, just like USA hoped. That's why Russians avoided it, and turned Turkey into an ally of a sort in recent months. But USA is something else. If you think that Russia is going to allow their planes shut down by US missiles without any retaliation, there is no point in keeping this discussion any more.

[Zorral]

A lot of the Hillary hatred began when Clinton entered the White House.

 

Washington D.C. is an extraordinarily conservative, class conscious and clubby city, as is any city whose industry is politics and governance.  The U.S. aristocrats and those who view themselves as the nation's aristocrat class, those who, because of their ancestors such as the Adamses, Jeffersons, etc. consider themselves entitled to hold the highest offices by birth and privilege, these people never admitted that the Clintons had the right to hold the highest office and inhabit the White House.  When as first lady, Hillary didn't play o I'm just the little woman in a big man's world, that made the resentment and back-biting all the more nasty.  Their traditional political enemies grabbed on to the insiders' resentment like grabbing the gold ring on a carousel and continued to push the envelope.

Historically we can really see this starting with the election of Andrew Jackson (who was, indeed, a disaster for the country in many ways, he who made Dixie safe for slavery and cotton by Native American genocide, and caused the deepest and longest economic depression in the US since Jefferson shut down U.S. trade and before the Great Depression of the 1930's with his incredibly ignorant ideas about money and credit-- what it is, how it works, etc.).  He and the Presidents from the western states, unless they came from Old Virginia families in the first place before moving west -- Clay was acceptable, Jackson was not -- were always despised as outsiders by the insiders, even when they made great careers in the western POTUS administrations.  It even happened to Grant, the most vilified president ever, until probably Obama and probably now, Hillary.  The Adamses and even the Hays (Henry Adams's best friend was Lincoln's secretary, John Hay) sneered at Grant, called him a seedy little outsider fool -- and played right into the hands of the Lost Cause revisionists.  Grant's reputation as the most corrupt president ever still stands for anyone who hasn't actually studied his administrations and life carefully, and people like Henry Adams -- and later, even Gore Vidal (see, ye Gores!) -- continued the calumnies.

This isn't to say that any of these people didn't make decisions and cause events for which they deserve to  be criticized (NAFTA, so-called welfare reform, etc. in the case of the Clintons), but generally they are reviled for things they never did or were not ultimately responsible for, and accused of things that never happened (see Whitewater and Vince Foster's death).

History is our best friend when comes to trying to figure out what's going on now.

[Zorral]

Quote

... since Turkey lost all of its 11 wars with Russia ... 

NOT true.  See here.  It all also looks quite different from the Turkish point of view.

 

 

[Kalbear]

I do, actually, know what forensic evidence is. Here are some examples.

The cybersecurity firm Crowdstrike issued a report indicating that there is good evidence Russia is behind the hacking. Note that they are not 'media'. Another cybersecurity firm ThreatConnect came to similar conclusions. Keep in mind that the US government has private systems that are significantly more advanced than what most cybersecurity companies have which they can use to idenitify sources, and they likely used these as well. 

The above is not perfect proof or a smoking gun, but the notion that there is no evidence is absurd. Between breadcrumbs, evidence of a fast attempt at cleanup, examples of it coming from the same person, use of technique and behavior, coordination, use of specific tools, analysis of the supposed hacker's behavior and source language - there is plenty of real, specific, and incontrovertible evidence indicating a Russian involvement.

 

[Ice Queen]

36 minutes ago, alguien said:

 

But then, you've pretty much made it clear you're not interested in actual discourse. 

In all fairness, I posted the part about Wellsley. 

[Hereward]

He's not Russian, he's a Serb. In fact, he probably is Miodrag.

[Ice Queen]

31 minutes ago, StepStark said:

That's a serious delusion right there. Luckily, US generals seem to know better. Sadly, an insane person who doesn't know better will enter the White House soon - Hillary Clinton.

And I know this will sound arrogant, but I really can't discuss these things here anymore, if so many of you have no idea what's happening in the real world. I speak some Russian and I'm trying to follow their news outlets. And I'm also following news and analysis on my native language. Expecting Russia to react the same way against USA as it did against Turkey (which presents no serious threat to them, and never did, since Turkey lost all of its 11 wars with Russia), is a grave delusion. A war with Turkey would've been a distraction for Russia, just like USA hoped. That's why Russians avoided it, and turned Turkey into an ally of a sort in recent months. But USA is something else. If you think that Russia is going to allow their planes shut down by US missiles without any retaliation, there is no point in keeping this discussion any more.

I guess you heard the part about how Trump ended up with a disinformation piece, released by WikiLeaks, that was known only to the Russians, then?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

11 hours ago, StepStark said:

Do you have any idea what she suggested? Can you imagine what's going to happen if she goes on with her plan to set a no fly zone over Syria? Is it really that hard to think what will be Russian response if one of their planes is shut down by a US missile? Just look how did US top general reacted when Congress proposed the same thing:

Are you suggesting Russia is going to go to nuclear war with the US over Syria? What evidence do you have for this other than your own opinion?

On a related note, how are you sure your own sources of news are not biased?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-10/russian-tv-fans-war-hysteria-as-u-s-ties-hit-post-cold-war-low

Quote

Both the Iskander and the Kaliber missiles carried by these ships can be fitted with nuclear warheads, Kiselyov said in his program. The presenter is known for making provocative statements critical of the U.S. He bragged in 2014 that Russia is the only country capable of turning the U.S. to radioactive dust.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'm convinced it started with her introduction to the US electorate as a very non-traditional political wife who was confident and career-oriented. She offended people by saying she wouldn't bake cookies or "stand by my man like Tammy Wynette" and led to some extreme backlash. Political wives are supposed to smile and simper on the side, never say anything uncontroversial. Seriously, what First Ladies have ever gotten criticized so much by the public? Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama, two women who pursued ambitious careers.

Ever since Clinton's clumsy introduction to the national electorate, there's a broad swath of people who think everything she does is wrong. She's certainly made her share of mistakes along the way and she lacks the natural schmoozing ability that softened her husband's sins. The deck is also just stacked against a woman in general. The criticisms that she smiles too much or doesn't smile enough or she's too weak to take on Trump or she's too much of a ball buster or OMG she wears pantsuits speak to the challenges a woman faces in public life.

I think you're 90% of the way to articulating the origins of the Hillary hate. It's everything you said plus Bill putting her in charge of reforming healthcare. 

[all swedes are racist]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

Form over substance. I get it. Sadly, that attitude is everything Clintons need to stay above the law.

Oh, that is beautiful. Masterfully done, sir

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

26 minutes ago, Hereward said:

He's not Russian, he's a Serb. In fact, he probably is Miodrag.

I figured he's a Serb, too. But there's probably many pro-Russian Serbian conspiracy theorists who can write fluently in English. It doesn't necessarily have to be Miodrag.

[Ariadne23]

And now Trump's campaign says he likes to assault women because...Beyonce?

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, OnionAhaiReborn said:

There are a few more gems in there:

"What you are about to read (and see) below is a fully cited example of something we have discussed frequently, but withheld until today, so the oppositional forces cannot change strategies in their attempts to manipulate your mind."

"However, we present this with a disclaimer: the entities exposed will industriously work to change their approach from this day forth."

"You have probably seen the latest example of the media claiming a released presidential poll from NBC and The Wall Street Journal as an example of Hillary Clinton expanding to an 11 point lead in the weekend following the “controversial” leaked tape of Donald Trump."

I read all of this and I immediately think about the charlatan character in Michner's Space who dupes the Senator's wife for decades about the advent of the coming of the Little Green Men...every letter he sent was written in that manner...

2 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Let me try that.  Cold war and all that. May play.  But that's a reason to NOT vote for Trump.  She thinks Virginia will go for Hillary anyhow, which I think is incorrect.  So how do I get her to affirmatively vote for Clinton?

One of the first things I did when I moved to Virginia this summer was to ensure I was registered to vote.  I've never voted in a state where it might actually matter a little more on the national level...

[Swordfish]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think you're 90% of the way to articulating the origins of the Hillary hate. It's everything you said plus Bill putting her in charge of reforming healthcare. 

Plus a whole bunch of miscues and shady behavior on top.

But I know, I know, the only reason to dislike her in some peoples eyes will always be sexism, regardless.....  Tat's the narrative handed down by the DNC, and so I know we're stuck with it, reductionist and convenient as it may be.