The COTF Master Plan: Part 1

[Maester of Valyria]

18 hours ago, Whitering said:

Well, I have never thought Volcano so much as just releasing the valve on a magma pocket or something, but that's nitpicking.

If you think the Others were the enemy of the Children then how did finding the Children end the War? Help build the Wall with them and their enemy stuck on one side? That the Children at least hold sway, if not outright created the Others fits all of the facts (the battle at the cave was a show to keep everyone a happy guest/prisoner).

I'm not completely certain that the Others were enemies of the Children: that's where I started speculating a bit more wildly than before. I'm slightly confused by the bolded lines, would you mind elaborating? And as for the Children having created the Others, I'm really not that keen on the idea (although it would fit in with some components of my theory).

[Whitering]

43 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I'm not completely certain that the Others were enemies of the Children: that's where I started speculating a bit more wildly than before. I'm slightly confused by the bolded lines, would you mind elaborating? And as for the Children having created the Others, I'm really not that keen on the idea (although it would fit in with some components of my theory).

If the Children were the enemy of the Others, as you have stated then two things do not make sense.

1) The Last Hero finds the Children, the War for the Dawn ends: This makes no sense if the Children were fighting the Others already, and if you want to stray from the obvious Deux Ex Machina that is implied by them being an enemy that had just not yet entered the war but immediately ended it upon entering, then the easy and clean answer is that they controlled the Others and the Last Hero managed to make peace with them, a second treaty came about here, which I will elaborate on.

2) Also against your theory, if the Children and the Others are enemies, then why would the Children help build the Wall where it is, instead of further North between them and the Others?

Let's look at my evidence.

1) They are on the same side of the Wall

2) There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Let's presume for a moment that this saying arose not out of tradition, but instead in the amended treaty between the Children and Men. If the Last Hero was a Stark, this would make sense. Only the smallest bit of prescience would be required to see the Starks were going to not be in Winterfell soon. Can't be sure exactly why the Others are rising now, but the fall of the Starks does fall very close.

3) 100 Obsidian daggers and arrow heads per year to the Watch. War Reparations can be paid even by the winning side of a war, and this doesn't look like a gift, otherwise it would not be a specific amount, also why did they stop? If the Children and the Others are enemies, the Children would want the Night's Watch well stocked.

4) By the end of where we are in the books I was 100% certain the battle at the cave was just for show. Nobody was killed despite 30 wights popping up in their midst, as far as standard fantasy goes, that's fine, but this is not a standard fantasy, so let's look at another explanation for why they survived. None of our favourites think they can leave. Meera, Jojen, Bran, all believe they are stuck there, and it's due to two reasons, the wights and the distance. It's easier to have happy people staying with you if they believe its too dangerous to leave instead of telling them they are prisoners.

I've expanded on this elsewhere, but together, I just don't see the enemy connection. I guess the Children could have like an AI problem, creating something they can't control, but then the peace that brought the Dawn doesn't make sense.

[Maester of Valyria]

30 minutes ago, Whitering said:

1) The Last Hero finds the Children, the War for the Dawn ends: This makes no sense if the Children were fighting the Others already, and if you want to stray from the obvious Deux Ex Machina that is implied by them being an enemy that had just not yet entered the war but immediately ended it upon entering, then the easy and clean answer is that they controlled the Others and the Last Hero managed to make peace with them, a second treaty came about here, which I will elaborate on.

2) Also against your theory, if the Children and the Others are enemies, then why would the Children help build the Wall where it is, instead of further North between them and the Others?

My take on it (assuming that the Children did create the Others) is that the Children created the Others as a weapon against the humans, but then lost control and joined the First Men in their fight against the darkness. Or maybe they just realised that ice spreading over the whole world wouldn't be great for the forests they love so much.

As for point 2, when the Wall was first constructed the Children were extant throughout all of Westeros. I think it's plausible that at the time some Children stayed north of the Wall to guard against the Others. Perhaps they used to travel across the Wall on a regular basis, but were forced to cease this when the Andals arrived.

34 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Can't be sure exactly why the Others are rising now, but the fall of the Starks does fall very close.

The Others rose before the Starks left Winterfell though

35 minutes ago, Whitering said:

3) 100 Obsidian daggers and arrow heads per year to the Watch. War Reparations can be paid even by the winning side of a war, and this doesn't look like a gift, otherwise it would not be a specific amount, also why did they stop? If the Children and the Others are enemies, the Children would want the Night's Watch well stocked.

That's a very interesting point about reparations: I hadn't considered that previously. Maybe the First Men just asked for that amount, or perhaps the Children really like round numbers (although surely they'd use base 8?)

37 minutes ago, Whitering said:

4) By the end of where we are in the books I was 100% certain the battle at the cave was just for show. Nobody was killed despite 30 wights popping up in their midst, as far as standard fantasy goes, that's fine, but this is not a standard fantasy, so let's look at another explanation for why they survived. None of our favourites think they can leave. Meera, Jojen, Bran, all believe they are stuck there, and it's due to two reasons, the wights and the distance. It's easier to have happy people staying with you if they believe its too dangerous to leave instead of telling them they are prisoners.

Possible. I've long been of the opinion that the Children are hiding some serious stuff, and that Bran needs to watch himself there.

[Whitering]

"The Others rose before the Starks left Winterfell though"

The timeline is not exact but it's like 2 months between us seeing the Others and Lord Stark departing Winterfell within a year after that his heir leaves, and a year after that they all leave. I did imply that they would have to have some prescience, not unknown in either these books (Targs, Red priests, or others). Thus they knew the treaty would be violated and begin to prepare. Pre-emptively preparing for war, or even outright attacking is a common military tactic.

[Jon Fossoway]

6 hours ago, Whitering said:

If the Children were the enemy of the Others, as you have stated then two things do not make sense.

1) The Last Hero finds the Children, the War for the Dawn ends: This makes no sense if the Children were fighting the Others already, and if you want to stray from the obvious Deux Ex Machina that is implied by them being an enemy that had just not yet entered the war but immediately ended it upon entering, then the easy and clean answer is that they controlled the Others and the Last Hero managed to make peace with them, a second treaty came about here, which I will elaborate on.

 

Maybe the Last Hero found a certain kind of children? We can assume their numbers were far more greater than in the saga, so I can't picture the 'difficulty' of finding them. My guess is that the Last Hero went to see the guys who live in that island in the middle of the lake, as Howland did before aSoIaF.

[Maester of Valyria]

14 hours ago, Whitering said:

"The Others rose before the Starks left Winterfell though"

The timeline is not exact but it's like 2 months between us seeing the Others and Lord Stark departing Winterfell within a year after that his heir leaves, and a year after that they all leave. I did imply that they would have to have some prescience, not unknown in either these books (Targs, Red priests, or others). Thus they knew the treaty would be violated and begin to prepare. Pre-emptively preparing for war, or even outright attacking is a common military tactic.

Possible, but I confess I always get slightly distrustful of a theory when it starts explaining away important details with 'prophecy' or 'time-travel'.

[the trees have eyes]

17 hours ago, Whitering said:

"The Others rose before the Starks left Winterfell though"

The timeline is not exact but it's like 2 months between us seeing the Others and Lord Stark departing Winterfell within a year after that his heir leaves, and a year after that they all leave. I did imply that they would have to have some prescience, not unknown in either these books (Targs, Red priests, or others). Thus they knew the treaty would be violated and begin to prepare. Pre-emptively preparing for war, or even outright attacking is a common military tactic.

Mance has been fighting and losing to the Others for some period of time.  The prologue to AGOT opens with the Others killing both wildlings and Rangers a few days ride from the Wall.  Craster has been sacrificing his sons to the Others for years.  All this happens while there are Starks in Winterfell, whether Rickard, Ned, Robb or Bran and Rickon.  The reappearance of the Others does not seem to be tied to the fortunes of the Stark family in any measurable way.

I think "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is part tradition and family saying and part common sense more than the essential requirement to prevent the triggering of an apocalyptic invasion.  And besides, the Long Night was 10,000 years ago: would the presence of a Stark really matter to the Others/Children after all this time?  It seems an utterly bizarre premise on which to start a war: presumably they knew/know that short-lived humans and their familiy lines are not everlasting so why make peace conditional on one particular human and his descendants?  Even if they didn't, the humans who made this treaty with them would and would know that it was a daft one to make because it would 100% fail / be broken at some point. 

[kissdbyfire]

On 23 October 2016 at 9:20 PM, Gertrude said:

Another obvious answer was that it wasn't planned very well, by either the assassin of the one who hired him. It's just as valid as the conclusion that it was supposed to fail. And it depends on some pretty slick timing. The CotF knew Cat would be able to slow down the assassin long enough for Summer to reach the tower to save Bran? Of course Cat would fight like hell to save Bran, but she hadn't slept or eaten for days. I think the timing is pretty dicey to pin all your hopes on a weakened woman to give Summer those precious moments.

And why do you think the CotF knew about Lysa's letter and what it had in it? I highly doubt Cat and Ned would discuss this openly in the Godswood. Is this the same way the CotF can control weather and could then possibly control the travel times of Cat and Tyrion to arrange their meeting? And btw, there are so many ways that their meeting could have gone down that just their meeting guarantees nothing. It might have ended up speeding up their journey to make sure they get him safe to Winterfell. Unless you're saying that the CotF can influence the decisions of anybody at any time, I don't see how this holds together. And if they can, then why do they even need Bran?

All of this.

And this:

I think a big part of the COTF master plan was to get Bran to go north and join BR. I will get into this more in part 2, but the basic steps are: cripple Bran; send him dreams; fake assassinate him; send Theon, Ramsay, and Jojen to WF; get Bran to trust that the Old Gods can predict the future when they can’t; destroy WF; fake Bran’s death so no one goes looking for him; send Sam to meet him at the Black Gate to guide him through; get Bran to the cave; turn Bran into a powerful greenseer; get Bran to join the weirnet and use his powers to control humanity.

If crippling Bran was part of the CotF's master plan, then why Summer clearly doesn't want Bran to go climbing that day?

ETA:

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran II 

Finally he got tired of the stick game and decided to go climbing. He hadn't been up to the broken tower for weeks with everything that had happened, and this might be his last chance. 

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands. His wolf came sprinting at his heels. "You stay here," he told him at the base of the sentinel tree near the armory wall. "Lie down. That's right. Now stay."

The wolf did as he was told. Bran scratched him behind the ears, then turned away, jumped, grabbed a low branch, and pulled himself up. He was halfway up the tree, moving easily from limb to limb, when the wolf got to his feet and began to howl.

Bran looked back down. His wolf fell silent, staring up at him through slitted yellow eyes. A strange chill went through him. He began to climb again. Once more the wolf howled. "Quiet," he yelled. "Sit down. Stay. You're worse than Mother." The howling chased him all the way up the tree, until finally he jumped off onto the armory roof and out of sight.

 

 

[Darkstream]

Plus, isn't this quite the risky plan to use in order to cripple Bran? Did the COTF somehow know that the fall would only cripple Bran? By all rights, it's a miracle that he survived, he's extremely lucky to even be alive.

I can just picture the COTF standing around scratching there heads, and pointing fingers at each other when their elaborate plan was squashed due to Bran dying from his fall.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Plus, isn't this quite the risky plan to use in order to cripple Bran? Did the COTF somehow know that the fall would only cripple Bran? By all rights, it's a miracle that he survived, he's extremely lucky to even be alive.

I can just picture the COTF standing around scratching there heads, and pointing fingers at each other when their elaborate plan was squashed due to Bran dying from his fall.

Excellent point!

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Plus, isn't this quite the risky plan to use in order to cripple Bran? Did the COTF somehow know that the fall would only cripple Bran? By all rights, it's a miracle that he survived, he's extremely lucky to even be alive.

I can just picture the COTF standing around scratching there heads, and pointing fingers at each other when their elaborate plan was squashed due to Bran dying from his fall.

Kinda like these guys 

https://youtu.be/PZDo-udXmgQ

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

49 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Plus, isn't this quite the risky plan to use in order to cripple Bran? Did the COTF somehow know that the fall would only cripple Bran? By all rights, it's a miracle that he survived, he's extremely lucky to even be alive.

I can just picture the COTF standing around scratching there heads, and pointing fingers at each other when their elaborate plan was squashed due to Bran dying from his fall.

Ah, but the great theory assumes the COTF have the ability to travel time at will, and they were save scumming until everything went perfectly right. Why the Children have this capacity, is promised to be revealed in Part Two.

Although I suspect it's a joke not dissimilar from Mel Brooks' "The History of the World, Part One" (there was only Part One).

[Darkstream]

39 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Ah, but the great theory assumes the COTF have the ability to travel time at will, and they were save scumming until everything went perfectly right. Why the Children have this capacity, is promised to be revealed in Part Two.

Although I suspect it's a joke not dissimilar from Mel Brooks' "The History of the World, Part One" (there was only Part One).

Ah right. I guess Bran probably died the first few times, the last attempt he was probably paralyzed from the neck down, but this time they got it right, and dropped him from just the right height to get the desired outcome they were looking for.

Say what you like...but them time travellin' Children sure are persistent.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Kinda like these guys 

https://youtu.be/PZDo-udXmgQ

Har, my most favorite Disney movie.

Spoiler

Somewhere the theory was spawned. Producers decided to go with fan fiction. And the fans decided to go with the HBO version.

 

[Darkstream]

COTF #1: He's dead, all our plans ruined, what are we going to do?

COTF#2: He's dead? What do you mean he's dead, how did this happen? We have to do something...what are we going to do?

COTF#1: I don't know, but we have to do something, but what, what are we going to do?

COTF #3: What are we going to do? I'll tell you what we're going to do. Back to the Weirnet, we keep going back in time until we get it right. I'd say don't make any plans as we could be at this a while, but hey don't worry, if you don't make your plans, we can just travel back in time and fix that too.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Darkstream said:

COTF #1: He's dead, all our plans ruined, what are we going to do?

COTF#2: He's dead? How did this happen? We have to do something...what are we going to do?

COTF#1: I don't know, but we have to do something, but what, what are we going to do?

COTF #3: What are we going to do? I'll tell you what we're going to do. Back to the Weirnet, we keep going back in time until we get it right. I'd say don't make any plans as we could be at this a while, but hey don't worry, if you don't make your plans, we can just travellin' back in time and fix that too.

The children of the forest are my favorite comedians. To be honest their pretty funny though. But seriously what are you talking about. Like why did you type up COTF when sending that message. Like what is this thread about is basally what i am trying to say. I see its about the children of the forest but are you saying that they are the villains of something or that they are going to go and take the seven kingdoms back. Because if so that would be pretty cool.

[The Fattest Leech]

19 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

COTF #1: He's dead, all our plans ruined, what are we going to do?

COTF#2: He's dead? What do you mean he's dead, how did this happen? We have to do something...what are we going to do?

COTF#1: I don't know, but we have to do something, but what, what are we going to do?

COTF #3: What are we going to do? I'll tell you what we're going to do. Back to the Weirnet, we keep going back in time until we get it right. I'd say don't make any plans as we could be at this a while, but hey don't worry, if you don't make your plans, we can just travellin' back in time and fix that too.

Haha

[sweetsunray]

On 5-11-2016 at 0:28 AM, Whitering said:

"The Others rose before the Starks left Winterfell though"

The timeline is not exact but it's like 2 months between us seeing the Others and Lord Stark departing Winterfell within a year after that his heir leaves, and a year after that they all leave. I did imply that they would have to have some prescience, not unknown in either these books (Targs, Red priests, or others). Thus they knew the treaty would be violated and begin to prepare. Pre-emptively preparing for war, or even outright attacking is a common military tactic.

But Craster didn't give his sons to the Others for only the past year before aGoT did he?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Darkstream said:

COTF #1: He's dead, all our plans ruined, what are we going to do?

COTF#2: He's dead? What do you mean he's dead, how did this happen? We have to do something...what are we going to do?

COTF#1: I don't know, but we have to do something, but what, what are we going to do?

COTF #3: What are we going to do? I'll tell you what we're going to do. Back to the Weirnet, we keep going back in time until we get it right. I'd say don't make any plans as we could be at this a while, but hey don't worry, if you don't make your plans, we can just travel back in time and fix that too.

Love the summation of this type of time traveling concept.

[Jon Fossoway]

I don't quite understand what's happening in this thread right now.