Is it confirmed Brandon never had sons

[Therae]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Never given the color of Jon's eyes. They are dark, but no color. And the deep/dark purple that shows up in Targaryens looks almost black in certain circumstances, like when they lack silver hair or when they are in low-light areas. What a person wears also affects the appearance of eye color. Thus with Jon always in black or other dark colors, dark purple eyes would look very dark but not particularly purple.

No. Dark is not a color. It's a value. Arya's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark blue (Tully) or dark brown for all we know (throwback double recessive). Jon's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark purple (Targaryen/Dayne), or dark any other color (again a throwback).

This confused me.  We are given eye color for both Jon and Arya. Not just that they are dark, but specifically that they are grey:

Quote

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.

- GoT, Bran I

 

All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye. Black moleskin gloves covered his hands; the right because it was burned, the left because a man felt half a fool wearing only one glove.

- CoK, Jon I

 

Arya had her father's eyes, the grey eyes of the Starks.

DwD, Reek II

(And Theon goes on to think about Jeyne's eyes being brown when they should be grey pretty much every time he thinks about her.)

Apropos of not very much, there are a LOT of people with grey eyes in Westeros.

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

"Easier" is relative, though. Easier than what?

I would argue that Ned claiming Jon as his bastard did in fact make life easier than it would have been if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and if Ned had confirmed that. But just because Ned's chosen course wasn't very easy doesn't mean that it actually wasn't the easier course.

Part of the reason (I believe) that Ned is so tortured by it is because he is aware that he is lying about Jon being his bastard son. That living a lie, as well as the fear that his lie could be found out, bothers him just as much as the pain he caused his wife.

Easier is a relative term, I agree.  You are looking at Jon as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, who Ned raised as his bastard to keep him safe, and it is assumed that was one of the promises that Ned made to Lyanna. But we have no idea what the promises Ned made to Lyanna where, what he managed to keep or not keep, or even if they relate to Jon (I certainly think at least some of them do). That idea is based on the theory of R+L=J, but that has not been confirmed by the author or the text as of yet. I don't happen to think that Jon is Rhaegar's son, but if he was, it would have been easier and safer for Ned to get Jon out of Westeros. I agree that if Jon is Rhaegar's son, it would not have been safe for Ned to report that truth to Robert or the realm.

But Ned could have had Jon raised in any other household in the north, whether Jon is Ned's biological son or not. I think Jon could have been safe raised at the Last Hearth or White Harbor or Greywater Watch (very safe there, actually), and he certainly would have not had to deal with Catelyn's hatred. That would have been easier for Jon and Ned and Cat. Catelyn claims Jon being raised in Winterfell was a shadow on her marriage. I think Ned raised Jon at Winterfell because he wanted him close. I think  the reason Ned "claimed Jon as his son for all the north to see" was because Jon is Ned's son, and he wanted people to know that. And he raised Jon at Winterfell because it is the home of the Starks.

I think Jon is Ned's biological son. That is my opinion only. I don't expect to change any opinions on that. We all interpret the text in our own ways, which leads to multiple parentage theories. Many people think Jon is Rhaegar's son. This might very well be confirmed at some point. Until then ...

Ned is certainly haunted, by his memories of Lyanna, by promises and dreams and blue roses and blood. But in truth, all we have are theories and idea's now, and not much in the way of confirmation. Your idea is valid based on the ambiguous text, but I think my idea is valid too. That is the beauty of the web that GRRM is weaving for us.

[St Daga]

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And that Jon scene is cherrypicked to death! It seems posters want to pick two lines... and then stop there. If you look at the whole scene, it shows that Jon does not understand why Longspear is considered Ygritte's brother, and she explains to him that they are of the same village and even that is too close of a relationship to start banging each other. It is giving information to the reader via Ygritte, she is like Old Nan, is one who was put in place to give readers some in-world information in a new area that no other main character in the story is actively in.

I agree that context is important, but all Jon had to do was say "no". He didn't.  

As for cherry picking scene's and lines to death, that is done pretty much by every person trying to prove their own idea. No different than people who use the line

Quote

"Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame." aDwD-Jon VIII.

That line is very different using the context of the scene with Jon hearing yet again from Mel about waking stone dragons. People like to claim this is vision of a dragon or proof of dragon dreams for Jonno, but it just as easily can be Jon picturing something that Mel talks about often.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We will never get those insights because the story is about our current song of ice and fire and we have already been given enough "world" info to see how it is accepted, or not, throughout the main parts of the story. As one example, the Dothraki are considered "godless" by many in Westeros, but we readers know they do have some gods and faith, and even through this we never hear of inbreeding with them. If they did, then chances are high it would have been mentioned, or witnesses more like, in relation to the two Targs that we have seen with the Dothraki, so far.

I understand we are not going to agree on this idea, and that is fine. But I like to keep in mind that The World of Ice and Fire book is written by a Maester for a Baratheon king (who is actually a Lannister bastard) who usurped the Targaryen throne. It has some of the same elements of "unreliable narrator" that POV chapter's in the book have. Idea's change based on the narrators goals, past, what they think they know versus what they do know. So, while TWOIAF is terribly interesting, I think we need to be cautious about what we take away from the information in the book.

As to the Dothraki, they don't seem to express feelings/idea's on incest, but Drogo did marry Daenerys, who is reportedly a child whose parents are siblings, so he could not have been too appalled by her status as an "abomination", considering he expected to have her abomination blood shared in their children.

Also, I am pretty sure if the Dothraki are running around raping and pillaging and raiding the same villages over and over, generation after generation, there is a chance that fathers/brothers could be raping their sisters/daughters. They might not know about the connection but that does not mean it is not happening.

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Considering Ned and Jon are of First Men/Northern blood, and they actively follow the old gods, and we are told that the old gods see this as an abomination, and the results are monsters... I think we can draw a conclusion and say yes. Now, they are not going to be assholes about it. Jon even promises to protect Gilly's baby and not name him until he is after two years old. There is the grey. They know it is wrong (black), but they chose to be grey about it.

I disagree completely about how Ned and Jon might feel about incest babies. Neither of them gives any indication in the text that they are disturbed by those children, and so I see no reason to draw that conclusion. It is almost like a void in their thoughts, so how can any conclusion be deduced regarding incest? Jon didn't like Craster, but that is because Craster is an ass and Jon shows pretty darn good judgment.  I realize that during Ned and Cersei's talk in the Red Keep godswood, that after she confirms his suspicions, Ned's thought process is "Ned felt sick", but that could mean he is sick about a lot of things, and not Cersei's incest. Possibly he is "sick" because Robert let this happen, "sick" because this was the secret that he thinks Jon Arryn died for, sick because Pycelle has been feeding him milk of the poppy. It could mean several things.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, we do have more than one wildling say the same thing about this idea. Just sayin'

 

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She doesn't need to. She only gets, what, two lines and one of those lines is about being a man or woman to Jon, whatever he prefers, because Morna's character is another example of how Jon is shaking things up and putting women in charge of serious duties.

My point is that we can't assume that Morna thinks that children born of incest are "abominations" just because another wilding might feel that way. Not every one person in our society has the same opinion on taboo behavior or politics or religion, and one can't assume that every person in Westeros or certain cultures has the same beliefs based on a few expressions of other people.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The first we get of this is Jon making the statement that Val says this. We know that Val is a woman of the free folk and she follows the old gods. And we know how the old gods feel about incest. I may have mentioned this already??? Sooo, we don't really need a character to literally say, "I am calling that child Monster because of incest," because readers are smart and have been given this information many times already.

Do we know how the old god's feel about incest? Hmm! Or do we actually have a few people expressing opinions about their perception of the old gods beliefs? Yup! For instance, if you favor the idea that Bloodraven is part of the old god network, and we know that he had a sexual relationship with his half-sister, then we can't say that the "old gods" abhor incest entirely. 

And maybe I am not as smart as you, but I think it is a leap to say smart readers know why Val calls that baby Monster. I mean, maybe she calls him Monster because he eats like a little pig and was pushy toward the other child Gilly was feeding.

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This seems counterproductive to storytelling.

Well, that is your own opinion and not necessarily mine and possibly not GRRM's!

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon has a ton of hurdles so far, and we only have two books left. Jon has to heal, fight the others, interact with Dany, save Winterfell, learn his Targaryen identity, come to terms with it, come to terms with Ned and Cat for different reasons, figure out his ruling place in the new world, etc... this would just bog it down while making Jon tooo golden and special.

Do we actually know that Jon has to do the things you have mentioned, or is that what readers assume needs to happen? If there is a check list in the back of the books, I must have missed it. Maybe Stannis will save Winterfell, maybe Jon never learns of a Targaryen identity because he actually doesn't have one, maybe Jon fights with the Others, not against them, maybe he never interacts with Dany in the actual story, etc. And if all those things happen, then I don't think throwing one more hurdle at Jon is going to bog him down so much he can't finish the race. It is a lot of guessing on our part, and until George publishes the next book, we really have no idea what might happen. Things changed a lot in after aFfC and aDwD were published and it changed our idea's on several things. I also expect if GRRM get's the series done in two more books, they are going to be colossal in length and scope, and we will have plenty of pages and experiences to be surprised about. I hope to be surprised, anyway!

10 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I love re-reads (or re-listens on Audible). After a bajillion reads, I also still find new information (or re-learn what I forgot). I love it. George is frickin' brilliant this way.

You should try some of his older stories if you want something to read during our patient TWOW wait.

I love rereads. It is amazing how the same story changes so much each time! I have never read anything nearly as compelling in my life. I have tried to listen on audible, but I have never been good with audio books. I can't concentrate on them or they hypnotize me. I have read several of his short stories, and the more I read, the more I change my idea's on ASOIAF. GRRM is a complicated man telling a complicated story, and not much of anything he does is expected. 

Thanks for convo. It's been fun! 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that context is important, but all Jon had to do was say "no". He didn't.  

This arguement doesn't really hold water because I once counted how many questions Jon is asked that he doesn't answer, and when I got to twelve I stopped because it is apparently part of his character. It means nothing but to give the reader more inworld details. 

Same with Ned. He is asked several questions that he answers with a statement or question in return. It seems to be part of normal dialogue cadence. 

 

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Never given the color of Jon's eyes. They are dark, but no color. And the deep/dark purple that shows up in Targaryens looks almost black in certain circumstances, like when they lack silver hair or when they are in low-light areas. What a person wears also affects the appearance of eye color. Thus with Jon always in black or other dark colors, dark purple eyes would look very dark but not particularly purple.

We do hear about Jon's eye color and it is in Bran's very first POV.

Quote

Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. aGoT-Bran I

While I agree that dark purple could look black, Bran does tell us that Jon's eyes are grey.

Quote

Jon blew out the taper he carried, preferring not to risk an open flame amidst so much old dry paper. Instead he followed the light, wending his way down the narrow aisles beneath barrel-vaulted ceilings. All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye. aCoK-Jon I

So Jon himself tells us his eyes are grey. 

Quote

Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.  aFfC-Samwell I

Sam tells us Jon's eyes are grey.

 

Quote

 

"Lord Snow," Melisandre said quietly. "Will you come with me to the King's Tower? I have more to share with you."

He looked at her face for a long moment with those cold grey eyes of his. His right hand closed, opened, closed again. aDwD-Melisandre I

 

Quote

Jon Snow's grey eyes grew wider. aDwD-Melisandre I

Mel tells us she views Jon's eyes as grey.

Jon's eyes are grey, not purple, just based on the text from GRRM. We see it in Jon's POV as well as several others. 

 

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

No. Dark is not a color. It's a value. Arya's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark blue (Tully) or dark brown for all we know (throwback double recessive). Jon's eyes could be dark grey (Stark), or dark purple (Targaryen/Dayne), or dark any other color (again a throwback).

 

Quote

Arya's eyes went wide. Dark eyes, like his. aGoT-Jon II

So, while this does not give a color description for either Jon or Arya's eyes, it does seem to indicate that their eyes are similar, or share something more common than darkness, but I admit, it is vague.

We can look at Arya's actual eye color. Which I actually thought were described as grey in A Game of Thrones, but I could not actually find that with the search function, but it comes in other books.

 

Quote

 

He is trying to scare me away, Arya thought, the way he did with the worm. "I don't care about that."

"You should. Stay, and the Many-Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?" He cupped her chin and gazed deep into her eyes, so deep it made her shiver. aFfC-Arya II

 

This is Arya's experience with the Kindly Man in the House of Black and White. He calls her eyes grey.

Quote

Arya had her father's eyes, the grey eyes of the Starks. A girl her age might let her hair grow long, add inches to her height, see her chest fill out, but she could not change the color of her eyes. aDwD-Reek II

 

Quote

 

Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father's ward." He turned to the bride. "Lady Arya, will you take this man?"

She raised her eyes to his. Brown eyes, not grey. Are all of them so blind? aDwD-The Prince of Winterfell

 

 

The first quote is when fArya first comes to Winterfell and the second is from fArya's wedding to Ramsay. Theon/Reek remembers Arya's eyes were grey, and that is how he knows Jeyne Poole is absolutely not Arya.

So Jon's eyes are often described as grey, and so are Arya's.

Until GRRM gives us "a hint of purple" in Jon's eyes, I think we have to accept that they are grey.

 

And just because I found this in the text while looking for quotes about Jon and Arya ... I wanted to argue my own assumption that Brandon's eye color was not ever given in the text.

19 hours ago, St Daga said:

Ned's are grey and Benjen's are blue-grey.  Lyanna's eyes are not described in the text and neither are Brandon's that I know of. Maybe that is the key we are missing to explain Jon's parentage. Maybe Lyanna had the grey eyes so dark they appeared almost black? But then many people assume that Lyanna is Jon's mother, so that is not a leap. However, if it was Brandon's eyes that are the "dark eyes", that would be interesting.

I still am pretty sure that Lyanna's eye color is never described in the text of the novels, and that has to be a purposeful omission on GRRM's part, but I did stumble across a reference to Brandon's eyes.

Quote

And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her. aGoT-Catelyn VII

So, Cat remembers that Brandon's eyes were grey. Of course, she could be sketchy on those details after all these years, but she might have that remembered correctly.

12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

By the way, the reason people have a problem with the idea of Stark incest is because there is absolutely nothing in the books that indicates it ever happened or would be accepted if it did. Rickard and Lyarra don't count because cousin marriages are not counted as incest in Westeros.

Jon has to be fathered during the war. Brandon was already dead before it started, and Ned was too busy fighting to have time for rendezvous with anyone.

I don't think I ever tried to claim that Rickard and Lyarra were incestuous couple. I think that there are no direct lines that point to incest in the Stark family, but I do think that GRRM parallels the Starks and Lannisters in an interesting way, and that is one reason I think he might throw incest at us with the Starks. I might be right, I might be wrong. I am not trying to change peoples mind and if people don't like the idea, that is fine with me.

But if incest did happen in the Stark family, and Jon was the product of that, it would give Ned a pretty good reason to keep quiet about Jon's parentage that is not RLJ. It is just one possible idea.

I don't want to start a timeline argument, but I think the timeline has some wiggle room as well as questionable dates of Jon's birth and Dany's birth. Also, how do we know that Ned was too busy to have time for a rendezvous with anyone? Until  aDwD came out, I bet people would have said that Ned had no time or reason to be in Sisterton or White Harbor during the rebellion, but he was. GRRM gives us what he wants, when he wants, and he is in charge of this story. He may or may not give us more details of Ned's time in the rebellion in the coming books (I think he will). Until then, all we have is speculation.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Brandon has no children or they would running wild at Winterfell . Wouldn't that hurt Catelyn ? No more than Jon did .

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that context is important, but all Jon had to do was say "no". He didn't.  

This arguement doesn't really hold water because I once counted how many questions Jon is asked that he doesn't answer, and when I got to twelve I stopped because it is apparently part of his character. It means nothing but to give the reader more inworld details. 

 

Some questions are rhetorical. I don't think this one is. Certainly, you are entitled to your own interpretation. I just disagree on this line of reasoning. If we all agreed, this would all be very boring! 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

22 hours ago, Therae said:

This confused me.  We are given eye color for both Jon and Arya. Not just that they are dark, but specifically that they are grey:

(And Theon goes on to think about Jeyne's eyes being brown when they should be grey pretty much every time he thinks about her.)

Apropos of not very much, there are a LOT of people with grey eyes in Westeros.

and

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

<snip

I don't think I ever tried to claim that Rickard and Lyarra were incestuous couple. I think that there are no direct lines that point to incest in the Stark family, but I do think that GRRM parallels the Starks and Lannisters in an interesting way, and that is one reason I think he might throw incest at us with the Starks. I might be right, I might be wrong. I am not trying to change peoples mind and if people don't like the idea, that is fine with me.

But if incest did happen in the Stark family, and Jon was the product of that, it would give Ned a pretty good reason to keep quiet about Jon's parentage that is not RLJ. It is just one possible idea.

I don't want to start a timeline argument, but I think the timeline has some wiggle room as well as questionable dates of Jon's birth and Dany's birth. Also, how do we know that Ned was too busy to have time for a rendezvous with anyone? Until  aDwD came out, I bet people would have said that Ned had no time or reason to be in Sisterton or White Harbor during the rebellion, but he was. GRRM gives us what he wants, when he wants, and he is in charge of this story. He may or may not give us more details of Ned's time in the rebellion in the coming books (I think he will). Until then, all we have is speculation.

 

Thank you both. I'd apparently forgotten that.

Do recall that characters as much as regular people have a tendency to see what they expect to see. Combine that with unreliable narrator. Then there's the fact that the light has a different quality to it in the North, and in this story with the North being synonymous with a state of near-perpetual winter, it will likely have a grey-ish cast. That will contribute, along with what Jon wears, to what color his eyes appear to be. There's a chance that Jon's eyes are not in fact grey. Not a huge chance, mind you, but a chance. However, Jon can have grey eyes and still be half-Targaryen, so the eye color doesn't prove anything one way or another.

Thank you, St Daga, for the multiple quotes. But Jon having grey eyes in no way indicates incest because we already know (all but confirmed) that Lyanna was his mother and Arya is said to look just like Lyanna. There's no purposeful omission there. Arya is mini-Lyanna. Arya has grey eyes. Lyanna had grey eyes.

I never said that you said anything about Rickard and Lyarra. I was mentioning that in case it got brought up later in the conversation.

Given that originally they were names made up to parallel York and Lancaster, that's not surprising. And the Borgia family were part of the inspiration for the twincest. 

Incest happening in the family is not a good enough reason for Ned to not eventually tell Catelyn the truth. The only explanation that makes sense for Ned continuing to keep the secret for so long is that he believes that Jon's father is a Targaryen.

Please understand that by rendezvous I'm talking about an arranged meeting, not a quickie with some random girl who happened to be there. The biggest/most popular theory for Ned being Jon's father is N+A=J, which requires Ashara to know where Ned is, get there safely through a war zone, get there before he's moved on to the next battle, sleep with him, conceive in a very short period of time, and get back to Dorne safely. That's very unlikely. The alternative is Ned taking time off from the rebellion to go to Dorne for a vacation, and that's even more unlikely.

I don't imagine anyone would be arguing that. Sisterton and White Harbor are important strategic points and he would have gone there on Official Rebellion Business. Getting lucky with Ashara would not have been Official Rebellion Business. 

[Therae]

12 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

However, Jon can have grey eyes and still be half-Targaryen

Agreed (and I am a boring old RLJer, so I think this is the case).

And Arya, eyes and all, is proof that incest is not required for Stark looks. I don't think Cat was mistaken (or lying) about having given Arya birth, even if the rest of the kids have Tully coloring.

I am not really expecting a three-way incest parallel with the featured families. I kind of think the whole incest thing sort of reflects the overall attitudes of each: Targaryens hold themselves above the gods, Lannisters hold themselves above the law, Starks hold themselves responsible for the welfare of the North and its people.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Do recall that characters as much as regular people have a tendency to see what they expect to see. Combine that with unreliable narrator. Then there's the fact that the light has a different quality to it in the North, and in this story with the North being synonymous with a state of near-perpetual winter, it will likely have a grey-ish cast. That will contribute, along with what Jon wears, to what color his eyes appear to be. There's a chance that Jon's eyes are not in fact grey. Not a huge chance, mind you, but a chance. However, Jon can have grey eyes and still be half-Targaryen, so the eye color doesn't prove anything one way or another.

Maybe the light in Essos is different, making Dany's eyes look purple when they are actually green! That is a stretch for Essos, as much as it's a stretch for the north. However, all sorts of things could be possible, I guess, but the text is what it is. And while I firmly believe in the unreliable narrator, I think when we get information from several POV's that seem to confirm the information.

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

However, Jon can have grey eyes and still be half-Targaryen, so the eye color doesn't prove anything one way or another.

I agree. Jon could be Targeryen whether his eyes are purple or grey. He could also be Dayne. Or Wylla the wet nurse with brown eyes could be his mother. Nothing is proof. Even if Jon had purple eyes, he could have Dayne blood. Or his mother could have been a wet nurse/camp follower who had been born in Lys or Volantis and had Valyrian coloring! Not likely at all, but possible, and not proof for or against confirmation.

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you, St Daga, for the multiple quotes. But Jon having grey eyes in no way indicates incest because we already know (all but confirmed) that Lyanna was his mother and Arya is said to look just like Lyanna. There's no purposeful omission there. Arya is mini-Lyanna. Arya has grey eyes. Lyanna had grey eyes.

Sorry if I over quoted, but I thought the text information is useful. Both for what is says and does not say. Lyanna's eye color is an assumption on the part of many readers. It is never described in text or memory. I think it is a purposeful omission by GRRM, and that her eyes could very well be more blue than grey, like Benjen's.  I think GRRM is all about letting the reader assume information as part of his crafty misdirection style of writing. We have no proof in the text to Lyanna's eye color.

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I never said that you said anything about Rickard and Lyarra. I was mentioning that in case it got brought up later in the conversation.

I see. I thought you were implying that I was using that marriage as proof of previous Stark incest, when cousin marriage in Westeros seems to be very accepted as normal. I have seen people describe Tywin and Joanna's marriage as incest, and I have argued that is not the case. So I can understand why people like to disabuse that idea before it even get's started. All good!

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Incest happening in the family is not a good enough reason for Ned to not eventually tell Catelyn the truth. The only explanation that makes sense for Ned continuing to keep the secret for so long is that he believes that Jon's father is a Targaryen.

I think it's a darn good reason not to tell her. She is not a kind or accepting person for the most part and there is no reason to think she would be any more okay with Jon as an incest baby as she is with him as Ned's bastard. But we are all entitled to our own opinion on things. As I said previously, I don't expect to change peoples ideas about this. It might not end up being the case, but I think for readers to think that GRRM would not go in that direction is a bit naive.

I happen to think that if Ned knew Jon was a Targ, he would have got him the hell out of Westeros. It is possible he felt like Winterfell was the safest place for Jon to be raised if he is the child of Rhaegar, but Ned seemed to think that Dany and Viserys were safer in Essos than hanging in Dragonstone (that is only implied, I know, and I just above arguing the dangers of assumption and implication, but I am not afraid to admit sometimes I can he a hypocrite while trying to make my case - oops! ) Ned certainly thought Cersei and Jaime's children would be safer the farther they were away from Robert. He did not think the strength of Casterly Rock was enough to protect them against Roberts rage. 

I could argue that Robert would be hateful and angry to any child that Lyanna bore who was not his own, and that is a very good reason to keep Jon's ID secret from Robert. If Lyanna is Jon's mother ... keep it secret.

If that child is Lyanna and Rhaegar's, I say get it out of Dodge, or Westeros, in this case. But that is just my opinion. It might not be GRRM's.

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Please understand that by rendezvous I'm talking about an arranged meeting, not a quickie with some random girl who happened to be there. The biggest/most popular theory for Ned being Jon's father is N+A=J, which requires Ashara to know where Ned is, get there safely through a war zone, get there before he's moved on to the next battle, sleep with him, conceive in a very short period of time, and get back to Dorne safely. That's very unlikely. The alternative is Ned taking time off from the rebellion to go to Dorne for a vacation, and that's even more unlikely.

I don't imagine anyone would be arguing that. Sisterton and White Harbor are important strategic points and he would have gone there on Official Rebellion Business. Getting lucky with Ashara would not have been Official Rebellion Business. 

Well, there is a lot of grey area in the time line of the rebellion and the characters movements. A baby can be born from a quickie or a long standing affair. GRRM tells us that Ashara "was not nailed to the floor in Dorne for the entire rebellion", that Dorne has ships and horses. His words, not mine. We don't know where Lyanna was for the entire rebellion. She seems to be missing for a while. Even if she was at the TOJ at the end of the war, that does not mean she was there for greater than a year. Things are possible in the text as far as character location and I don't think we should forget that. GRRM isn't writing a simple, easy to figure out story for us.

My point about Ned going to Sisterton and White Harbor isn't based on strategic importance, it is based on the idea Ned sailed from the Vale at all and had to cross the bite. It is a hint to the reader that maybe our characters had more unexpected locations during the rebellion that we had previously thought. We really had not gotten many details about how Ned or Robert had raised their banners for the rebellion. I think that information gives us a different pattern for Ned to travel to Winterfell than just by riding from the Vale through the Neck and to the north and Winterfell. We also get Ned reportedly traveling with a woman who might have been prego, whether she was or wasn't is unclear, and if she is, if that child was Neds or not, is also unclear.  Robb had time to march around the riverlands and the westerlands and compromise a girl and marry her, and he managed to make that huge mess in a pretty short amount of time. Robb getting lucky with Jeyne Westerling was not Official Rebellion Business, but it happened. Things are possible in this story, and George gives us lots of parallel's and inversions, to either tease us or tell us something. He is a tricky author!

3 hours ago, Therae said:

And Arya, eyes and all, is proof that incest is not required for Stark looks. I don't think Cat was mistaken (or lying) about having given Arya birth, even if the rest of the kids have Tully coloring.

Haha! Maybe Sansa was right and grumpkins or snarks did steal her real sister and put Arya in her place! I admit that Arya's Starkness does throw a monkey wrench into some of GRRM's genetics and fan theories. He is always trying to keep us unstable, I think. He does a good job.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 

I think it's a darn good reason not to tell her. She is not a kind or accepting person for the most part and there is no reason to think she would be any more okay with Jon as an incest baby as she is with him as Ned's bastard. But we are all entitled to our own opinion on things. As I said previously, I don't expect to change peoples ideas about this. It might not end up being the case, but I think for readers to think that GRRM would not go in that direction is a bit naive.

I happen to think that if Ned knew Jon was a Targ, he would have got him the hell out of Westeros. It is possible he felt like Winterfell was the safest place for Jon to be raised if he is the child of Rhaegar, but Ned seemed to think that Dany and Viserys were safer in Essos than hanging in Dragonstone (that is only implied, I know, and I just above arguing the dangers of assumption and implication, but I am not afraid to admit sometimes I can he a hypocrite while trying to make my case - oops! ) Ned certainly thought Cersei and Jaime's children would be safer the farther they were away from Robert. He did not think the strength of Casterly Rock was enough to protect them against Roberts rage. 

I could argue that Robert would be hateful and angry to any child that Lyanna bore who was not his own, and that is a very good reason to keep Jon's ID secret from Robert. If Lyanna is Jon's mother ... keep it secret.

If that child is Lyanna and Rhaegar's, I say get it out of Dodge, or Westeros, in this case. But that is just my opinion. It might not be GRRM's.

Some good stuff here and a lot to consider.  I agree, if Jon was the child of Lyanna and Brandon, then. Ned would keep it a secret from everyone not only to protect his family name but more importantly to protect Jon.  No one wants to be known as the child of incest.  This knowledge also wouldn't make Cat any less hostile to Jon.  Cat's biggest issue with Jon isn't really the fact that he is a bastard, it's the fact that he poses a potential threat to her children's inheritance.  If it turns out that Jon is Brandon's son, ironically he potentially becomes even a bigger threat to Cat's children, because he would be the first born son of Eddard's elder brother.  Cat could use Jon's incestuous heritage against him in much the same way that Stannis' uses it against Cersei's children.

And you raise a good point about Ned's concern of Robert's reaction to Jon if Jon was Rhaegar's son.  I'm not sure that it would necessarily prevent Ned from taking Jon in, but I doubt Ned would have left Jon at Winterfell when he found out about Robert's visit to Winterfell.  Eddard appears very happy about Robert's visit, not once does he evince any concern about hiding Jon.  Could he take a chance on Varys not having learned some things about Jon's heritage (if he was Rhaegar's son) and not having appraised Robert if he did?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Maybe the light in Essos is different, making Dany's eyes look purple when they are actually green! That is a stretch for Essos, as much as it's a stretch for the north. However, all sorts of things could be possible, I guess, but the text is what it is. And while I firmly believe in the unreliable narrator, I think when we get information from several POV's that seem to confirm the information.

I agree. Jon could be Targeryen whether his eyes are purple or grey. He could also be Dayne. Or Wylla the wet nurse with brown eyes could be his mother. Nothing is proof. Even if Jon had purple eyes, he could have Dayne blood. Or his mother could have been a wet nurse/camp follower who had been born in Lys or Volantis and had Valyrian coloring! Not likely at all, but possible, and not proof for or against confirmation.

Sorry if I over quoted, but I thought the text information is useful. Both for what is says and does not say. Lyanna's eye color is an assumption on the part of many readers. It is never described in text or memory. I think it is a purposeful omission by GRRM, and that her eyes could very well be more blue than grey, like Benjen's.  I think GRRM is all about letting the reader assume information as part of his crafty misdirection style of writing. We have no proof in the text to Lyanna's eye color.

<snip

I think it's a darn good reason not to tell her. She is not a kind or accepting person for the most part and there is no reason to think she would be any more okay with Jon as an incest baby as she is with him as Ned's bastard. But we are all entitled to our own opinion on things. As I said previously, I don't expect to change peoples ideas about this. It might not end up being the case, but I think for readers to think that GRRM would not go in that direction is a bit naive.

I happen to think that if Ned knew Jon was a Targ, he would have got him the hell out of Westeros. It is possible he felt like Winterfell was the safest place for Jon to be raised if he is the child of Rhaegar, but Ned seemed to think that Dany and Viserys were safer in Essos than hanging in Dragonstone (that is only implied, I know, and I just above arguing the dangers of assumption and implication, but I am not afraid to admit sometimes I can he a hypocrite while trying to make my case - oops! ) Ned certainly thought Cersei and Jaime's children would be safer the farther they were away from Robert. He did not think the strength of Casterly Rock was enough to protect them against Roberts rage. 

I could argue that Robert would be hateful and angry to any child that Lyanna bore who was not his own, and that is a very good reason to keep Jon's ID secret from Robert. If Lyanna is Jon's mother ... keep it secret.

<snip

Well, there is a lot of grey area in the time line of the rebellion and the characters movements. A baby can be born from a quickie or a long standing affair. GRRM tells us that Ashara "was not nailed to the floor in Dorne for the entire rebellion", that Dorne has ships and horses. His words, not mine. We don't know where Lyanna was for the entire rebellion. She seems to be missing for a while. Even if she was at the TOJ at the end of the war, that does not mean she was there for greater than a year. Things are possible in the text as far as character location and I don't think we should forget that. GRRM isn't writing a simple, easy to figure out story for us.

<snip

Robb getting lucky with Jeyne Westerling was not Official Rebellion Business, but it happened. Things are possible in this story, and George gives us lots of parallel's and inversions, to either tease us or tell us something. He is a tricky author!

<snip

Oh, I see. You're a scoffer. How nice for you.  I've lived at two different latitudes in North America and the light is different at each. GRRM having also lived in places at different latitudes has probably noticed the same thing. No guarantee he included it in ASOIAF, but it's as likely as not.

Lyanna is his mother. Everything in the series points to this. The show even used it, and it is extremely unlikely that they changed the mother of one of the major characters, when that was the only question the author asked before allowing them to adapt his work.

Nah, you're good. But I still disagree about Lyanna's eye color. If a house is known for a certain eye color it make sense to think their members have that color eyes unless otherwise stated.

Based on what do you make this particular assessment of Catelyn's temperament? The only time she us unkind is with Jon in a scene where she is sleep-deprived and out of her mind with worry (and which has been the basis of much misunderstanding of her character and of her treatment of Jon) and she's been far more accepting of Jon than 99% of medieval Westerosi women would have been. The only reason she feels threatened by Jon is because she is afraid that his mother (probably dead) is a rival for Ned's affection. If she knew he was Brandon and Lyanna's she would probably not like it but the source of her feeling threatened would be removed. 

My opinion on this has nothing to do with trying to guess what direction GRRM might take. It's based on a total lack of evidence in the story for it, and a knowledge of how he sets up his reveals on big things...and Jon's parents--whoever they are--is a big thing.

If he had looked like a Targ, then I would agree. But since Jon looks like a Stark, there's no particular reason to fear he would be in any danger as long as Ned keeps his mouth shut...hence not even telling his wife of 15 years, with whom he's had 5 children, and who he has come to love and trust. 

Yes, Dany and Viserys are unmistakably Valyrian-looking, and there is no doubt who fathered them. That one is a no-brainer.

Cersei and Jaime's children who look like Cersei and Jaime, and that would be after Ned tells Robert the truth. Of course they won't be safe when Robert knows. But Ned doesn't have much choice there. Cersei committed treason, and he is the Hand of the King. The situation with his sister's child is different, not least of all because he can easily hide Jon's heritage and nobody has questioned it (which makes me wonder about the intelligence level of the people in Westeros, or their deplorable lack of curiosity).

Yes. Keep it a secret. From Robert. Not from his own wife. At first when he didn't know Cat, sure. But it's been 15 years. 

There's some grey area, but not a huge amount. I know GRRM's words about Ashara. She was safe enough in Dorne, and traveling by sea, but she would not have been safe venturing northwards through the Reach, Stormlands, Riverlands, etc. We know in whose company Lyanna disappeared and in whose company she was found, and where. While locations could vary, it's unlikely who she was with varied, and that limits the options for who could be the father of her child.

No kidding. 

Robb was injured and recuperating when he ended up in bed with Jeyne, not running around conducting the business of war. And he was staying at her family's castle. That's a bit different from the suggestion that Ned took time off to go have a romantic getaway with someone.

Again, no kidding.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And you raise a good point about Ned's concern of Robert's reaction to Jon if Jon was Rhaegar's son.  I'm not sure that it would necessarily prevent Ned from taking Jon in, but I doubt Ned would have left Jon at Winterfell when he found out about Robert's visit to Winterfell.  Eddard appears very happy about Robert's visit, not once does he evince any concern about hiding Jon.  Could he take a chance on Varys not having learned some things about Jon's heritage (if he was Rhaegar's son) and not having appraised Robert if he did?

I agree that Ned was excited to see Robert, to have him visit Winterfell. And I think it is telling that he did not send Jon away from Winterfell. But Jon was kept separate from the kings party. Jon was not seated at the high table as he usually did when Ned;s bannermen from the north visited. And it wasn't only in the great hall, that Jon was kept separate. He was not allowed to practice at arms with members of the kings party nor go on hunts with them. Some of that stuff I could blame on Catelyn, but some of that direction had to come from Ned. And we know that Ned felt that he could not take Jon south with him, and I don't think it all had to do with Jon's bastard status. I do think that Ned tried to keep Jon separate, either from Robert, or the Lannisters. I am just not sure which, or why! I just don't think it has anything to do with Rhaegar. But maybe it does and what I think doesn't really matter.

Varys did mention Ned's bastard during he and Ned's final conversation in the black cells, but I have never been able to decide if Varys is hinting that he knows something, fishing for information about Jon, or that he really just doesn't think Jon matters!

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Oh, I see. You're a scoffer. How nice for you.  I've lived at two different latitudes in North America and the light is different at each. GRRM having also lived in places at different latitudes has probably noticed the same thing. No guarantee he included it in ASOIAF, but it's as likely as not.

I am a bit snarky at times, I must admit.I was being dramatic, probably overly so, to try to prove my point. Sorry if that seemed offensive. It was not my intention to be insulting.

And I have eyes that can look more blue or more green depending on what I am wearing. I have never noticed a change depending on my latitude, but I admit I don't gaze into my own eyes often. Light varies also, depending on the season and not just latitude. Many people in the series are described as having grey eyes. To say that latitude (or season) changes them enough that all of those people could have purple eyes instead of grey would be the only fair. If it can effect one persons eyes that way, it should effect everyones the same. I too have toyed with the idea of Jon's eyes being a very dark purple. Rhaegar's eyes are described as indigo, but I think that is only in a vision of Dany's. So indigo to me is a very dark bluish purple. Maybe if Rhaegar had been in the north, his eyes might have appeared black. It is very possible. I would be more inclined to think that the color of the clothing that Jon wears might affect the appearance of his eye color more than latitude, but it is possible. We know that Jon dresses in black at the Wall. I don't know if his clothing is ever described when he is in Winterfell, or his eye color ever described while he is wearing wildling furs. All of those things could affect how his eyes look, but we don't have any text to distinguish a difference.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Based on what do you make this particular assessment of Catelyn's temperament? The only time she us unkind is with Jon in a scene where she is sleep-deprived and out of her mind with worry (and which has been the basis of much misunderstanding of her character and of her treatment of Jon) and she's been far more accepting of Jon than 99% of medieval Westerosi women would have been.

That is the only scene we see Jon and Catelyn interact but I doubt it is the first time she has been unkind to him.

 

Quote

 

Something cold moved in her eyes. "I told you to leave," she said. "We don't want you here."

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark.  aGot-Jon II

 

Maybe Jon is just a big baby, but it seems to indicate she has has been less than kind to him in the past, to make him react this way. Robb even implies that he expected Cat to have been unkind to Jon, when Jon and Robb say their farewells in the falling snow, so Robb is aware or has seen this behavior from his mother directed toward Jon.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My opinion on this has nothing to do with trying to guess what direction GRRM might take. It's based on a total lack of evidence in the story for it, and a knowledge of how he sets up his reveals on big things...and Jon's parents--whoever they are--is a big thing.

I agree. Jon's parentage is presented as being a very big deal. No reveal from the author yet, and we can't use the show as book canon, just like we can't use the book as show canon. They are separate, and while I don't think the two will change Jon's parentage, I do think the show was absolutely vague about the father, and while it seems Lyanna did have a baby, the lead from the baby to a grown up Jon Snow seems to indicate that child that Lyanna gave birth to  was Jon, the whole reveal was very odd.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If he had looked like a Targ, then I would agree. But since Jon looks like a Stark, there's no particular reason to fear he would be in any danger as long as Ned keeps his mouth shut...hence not even telling his wife of 15 years, with whom he's had 5 children, and who he has come to love and trust. 

Catelyn completely made a mess of things when she took Tyrion and then compounded her mistake when she lost him. Ned told her to get back to Winterfell to put a plan in motion to protect the north, and she did none of that. She abducted Tyrion instead. She started a war and weakened the north. Maybe Ned had a reason to think she could not be trusted with important information on Jon's true parentage. I don't dislike Cat's character like many people do, but I can obviously see her mistakes, just like I can see Ned's errors. 

And Cat fears Jon because she thinks he could take Winterfell from her own children. If he has any Stark blood, that worry remains the same for her.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Yes, Dany and Viserys are unmistakably Valyrian-looking, and there is no doubt who fathered them. That one is a no-brainer.

Well, I actually question who Dany's father is, so maybe a no brainer to some, but not to others. Time will tell, and I am not going to argue that point. We are all entitled to our own interpretation.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's some grey area, but not a huge amount. I know GRRM's words about Ashara. She was safe enough in Dorne, and traveling by sea, but she would not have been safe venturing northwards through the Reach, Stormlands, Riverlands, etc. We know in whose company Lyanna disappeared and in whose company she was found, and where. While locations could vary, it's unlikely who she was with varied, and that limits the options for who could be the father of her child.

No kidding. 

There is a lot we don't know about Lyanna and Ashara, or the rebellion. GRRM is giving us a little bit at a time. I don't think his reveals are complete, and the story will continue to develop and change.

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Robb was injured and recuperating when he ended up in bed with Jeyne, not running around conducting the business of war. And he was staying at her family's castle. That's a bit different from the suggestion that Ned took time off to go have a romantic getaway with someone.

Again, no kidding.

Well, Ned was traveling with the fisherman's daughter at the same time he might have been sorely grieving the murder of his father and brother, which could have caused him to turn to someone for comfort. We don't know that he did or didn't. Robb's injury came about as part of fighting the war, which lead to the situation with Jeyne. I am not saying that Ned traveled halfway across Westeros to have an affair during the war, I am saying that things can happen during war, just like with Robb, or with Robert probably fathering Bella while he recuperated in Stoney Sept. And what if Jon really turns out to be Ned's son by some woman chance met on campaign? Though I doubt that, because there is no reason not to reveal who Jon's mother is then.

This thread is about the possibility of Brandon having had any sons, and I feel like I have helped turn this into just another argument about RLJ, and so I apologize to the OP for being a part of derailing this thread.

[Orphalesion]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

Maybe the light in Essos is different, making Dany's eyes look purple when they are actually green! That is a stretch for Essos, as much as it's a stretch for the north. However, all sorts of things could be possible, I guess, but the text is what it is. And while I firmly believe in the unreliable narrator, I think when we get information from several POV's that seem to confirm the information.

Except that, unlike Green, Purple is a colour that can appear greyish/grey to people in certain light conditions. I have had the repeated experience when i thought something was pale purple and others thought it was grey. Not rich purple or steely grey, but there appears to be some "grey area" along the pale purples/lavender and the duller greys.

Now I don't necessarily think that Jon's eyes are purple or that they must be purple for him to be Rhaegar's son. We don't really know what the result would be if a grey eyed person and a purple eyed one had children, since purple eyes (the way GRRM describes them), don't really exist in real life.

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Except that, unlike Green, Purple is a colour that can appear greyish/grey to people in certain light conditions. I have had the repeated experience when i thought something was pale purple and others thought it was grey. Not rich purple or steely grey, but there appears to be some "grey area" along the pale purples/lavender and the duller greys.

Now I don't necessarily think that Jon's eyes are purple or that they must be purple for him to be Rhaegar's son. We don't really know what the result would be if a grey eyed person and a purple eyed one had children, since purple eyes (the way GRRM describes them), don't really exist in real life.

My green eyes appearing purple was probably overly dramatic, to prove my point. I chose those two color's for contrast, because they should not be mistaken for each other. Purple and grey could appear similar, but nobody describes Dany's or Viserys's eyes as greyish purple, it's lilac and violet. I think we have to take the text for what it is, purple is distinct from grey, because that is what the author tells us. I am still inclined to think what a character is wearing would alter the appearance more than latitude, but the brightness of sunlight certainly makes a difference in our world. I am not sure it does in Planetos.

In our world, I agree that some shades of blue and grey are hard to distinguish, as well as purple and grey.

Also, GRRM seems to have created his own genetics that don't follow real world rules. In our world, eye color is determined by several genes and is never just one color or another that you can get from either parent, but can vary in shade between siblings. In GRRM's world, his characters seem to inherit a color from either a mother or a father. I suppose it is his form of old school dna testing. I think hair color works the same way in this world.

Grey is an interesting color in GRRM's world. Greyish eyes could appear blue, or purple or even green. I think Petyr Baelish's eyes are described as greenish-grey or greyish-green (I don't have the books with me now to check) and another person with grey-green eyes is Aurane Waters.

Of the Stark children of Rickard, in text both Brandon and Ned are described as having grey eyes, and Benjen's are blue-grey. If GRRM's parent genetics work like they seem to, then when it comes to Rickard and Lyarra Stark, one of them had grey eyes, and the other blue-grey. I guess that is just based on how I have interpreted the text, it might not be what The George intended.

[Frey family reunion]

11 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree that Ned was excited to see Robert, to have him visit Winterfell. And I think it is telling that he did not send Jon away from Winterfell. But Jon was kept separate from the kings party. Jon was not seated at the high table as he usually did when Ned;s bannermen from the north visited. And it wasn't only in the great hall, that Jon was kept separate. He was not allowed to practice at arms with members of the kings party nor go on hunts with them. Some of that stuff I could blame on Catelyn, but some of that direction had to come from Ned. And we know that Ned felt that he could not take Jon south with him, and I don't think it all had to do with Jon's bastard status. I do think that Ned tried to keep Jon separate, either from Robert, or the Lannisters. I am just not sure which, or why! I just don't think it has anything to do with Rhaegar. But maybe it does and what I think doesn't really matter.

Varys did mention Ned's bastard during he and Ned's final conversation in the black cells, but I have never been able to decide if Varys is hinting that he knows something, fishing for information about Jon, or that he really just doesn't think Jon matters!

 

I'm not sure we have any evidence that Jon was seated at the High Table for other feasts.  But regardless, they did nothing to hide him.  And I think the kid with the white direwolf would have been pretty conspicuous.  It can at least be argued that Ned's lack of concern for Robert and company having full view of Jon, might be some evidence that Ned would be concerned about Jon's safety around Robert.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not sure we have any evidence that Jon was seated at the High Table for other feasts.  But regardless, they did nothing to hide him.  And I think the kid with the white direwolf would have been pretty conspicuous.  It can at least be argued that Ned's lack of concern for Robert and company having full view of Jon, might be some evidence that Ned would be concerned about Jon's safety around Robert.

I guess I can not say with text proof that Jon ever sat at the high table ( I am going to be watching for it on my current reread), but for some reason, I thought Jon did sit with his family most of the time. Arya talks about sitting at that table with her father listening to him talk to his men. Jon seems to have good insight about Ned's bannermen, which he relays both in memory and to Stannis, and possibly I made an assumption that Jon gained his knowledge at the high table. In Jon's first POV, he certainly is aware of how much wine his siblings are probably being allowed to drink during the feast for Robert, and that on this night, Jon could drink as much as he wished, and did. I assume Jon had this knowledge because he too had sat at Ned's table and drank by the rules Ned seemed to apply to all his children in the past. This could be me seeing what I want to see, and not what is actually provided in the text, however.

I am not saying the Starks tried to hide Jon, because then I think they would have sent him away from Winterfell, at least for the Kings visit, but Jon was seated at the opposite end of the great hall than the high table. Makes Jon harder to spot in a crowd, although we know that Cersei at least laid eyes on Jon and knows how much he looks like Ned. Keeping Jon from the high table in a feast seems like something Cat could have had control over. But when Jon is not allowed to practice at arms or hunt with the kings party, I think Jon was also told he could not do that, but again, no text proof, just assumption. Someone told Jon that he could not spare with young princes however, and while Robb was allowed to go on at least one hunt with Roberts party (the day that Bran fell), Jon was not a part of that hunt. So I think Jon was not allowed to directly be with the kings party. It very well could be because of his Bastard status, but it could be more. Ned certainly didn't feel like he could take Jon to Kings Landing because of his birth, that is what we seem to get from Catelyn's POV.

I agree that Ned did not seem to think, at least at the beginning of our story, that Robert would hurt his children. By the end of Ned's life, he really was questioning that Robert would at least turn a blind eye, if not directly harm "Ned's own".

[kissdbyfire]

Well, we do know that Jon sits with the rest of the family for the most part, whatever that truly means. That said, we can't know how often or not the Starks have feasts or even more formal evenings, so to speak. So it may mean only that he sits with everyone else except when there's some sort of partay going. 

A Game of Thrones - Jon I 

"He's not like the others," Jon said. "He never makes a sound. That's why I named him Ghost. That, and because he's white. The others are all dark, grey or black."

"There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings." Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?" 

"Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them."

 

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I guess I can not say with text proof that Jon ever sat at the high table ( I am going to be watching for it on my current reread), but for some reason, I thought Jon did sit with his family most of the time.

I just glanced a bit further into Jon's first POV, and found this between Benjen and Jon.

 

Quote

 

"There are still direwolves beyond the Wall. We hear them on our rangings." Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. "Don't you usually eat at table with your brothers?"

"Most times," Jon answered in a flat voice. "But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them."

"I see." His uncle glanced over his shoulder at the raised table at the far end of the hall. "My brother does not seem very festive tonight." aGoT-Jon I

 

So Jon might not have sat at the high table, but he was normally sat with his brothers, who at least would be seated with Ned, or very near them. On this night, Jon seems to blame Catelyn for his demotion to the back of the great hall.