Overbooking, Flightcrew over paying passengers, the United incident

[Nugget1229]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't know what else to call it. You don't often hear an adult make noises like that, do you? It was uncomfortable to listen to. This was prior to the point where he was injured to the point where he was bleeding from the mouth. 

 

No, it started when they put their hands on him; which was WRONG WRONG WRONG.  I've not read everything about the case but it's obvious he is an immigrant from Asia where most people have a healthy respect an extreme fear of the police/authority; any of us who grew up in a culture like that would be 'bleating' if they put their hands on us!

Maybe he did do some shitty stuff but that shouldn't come into play with regards to this.

Every sinner has a future and every angel has a past.

Piss poor planning on your part (this case: United) does not constitute an emergency on mine.

[Seli]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I googled what you said about Delta.  That's smart:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/how-delta-masters-the-game-of-overbooking-flights/

I got the gist some time earlier today through twitter, so I lacked links. Thanks.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, Swordfish said:

 

i don't know why you keep adding that 'already settled in their seats' part, as if it's some kind of game changer here.  of all the inconveniences of being bumped from a flight, I'd suggest that 'already settled in your seat' is the least of them.

 

 

Wow, this seems to show a big misunderstanding of basic human psychology to me. I am absolutely sure that the huge majority of airline passengers would be much more emotionally upset by being removed from a flight after being seated than they would be by not being allowed to board an overbooked flight in the first place. Being already seated and then asked to leave would psychologically be much more frustrating -- once you're in your seat, you have emotionally begun your flight, whether or not the plane has taken off the ground. To not expect people to be much more disturbed in this situation than in the "standby bump" situation seems to show a lack of understanding of human nature.

[Fragile Bird]

33 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Oh yeah, I imagine this gentleman's door is being knocked down right now by attorneys. This has payday stamped all over it.

I think all aspects of airline travel are covered by either international convention or, in countries where travellers' Bill of Rights statutes have been passed, by those statutes, which set out maximum compensation levels. CNN said they interviewed an aviation lawyer, who suggested he would, in fact, use the technicality that Dao was already seated on the flight to try to get around the regulations. In addition, I would assume there's nothing stopping him from suing the Chicago Airport Authority for the way the airport police dragged him off. I understand the police were not Chicago police, but airport police. Finally, I understood from the stories I first read that the other three bumped passengers had left the aircraft. One of those three was his wife, who he was travelling with. WTF? Maybe that's where the 'aggressive passenger' report comes from?

Part of the US regulation on involuntary bumping was mentioned above, but here's the rest. I assume United did not offer $1,350 because that was more than 4 times the one way fare.

If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

• If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
• If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
• If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
• You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an "involuntary refund" for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.
• If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.

[Swordfish]

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That's the argument I'm making now.  Conversations flow.  

So if the removing him was legal, then you have no issue with this?

 

28 minutes ago, Seli said:

He wasn't bumped, that would have prevented all of this mess. He was removed, with excessive force when offering cash would probably have solved the issue easily. The deep problem is companies happily using force when clear paths to convince people otherwise are available. The problem is even more clear when competition (Delta apparently) has been using a monetary solution to get out of their own messes recently. 

he was bumped.  Then he was physically removed.  

We are quite clearly talking about the bumping part, and not the use of force part.

They reportedly offered him $800 plus some other stuff and he refused.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Wow, this seems to show a big misunderstanding of basic human psychology to me. I am absolutely sure that the huge majority of airline passengers would be much more emotionally upset by being removed from a flight after being seated than they would be by not being allowed to board an overbooked flight in the first place. Being already seated and then asked to leave would psychologically be much more frustrating -- once you're in your seat, you have emotionally begun your flight, whether or not the plane has taken off the ground. To not expect people to be much more disturbed in this situation than in the "standby bump" situation seems to show a lack of understanding of human nature.

You're showing a big misunderstanding of what I said  Which was that of all the inconveniences associated with being bumped from a flight, being bumped after seated falls near the bottom.  Specifically, the inconveniences like 'arriving at a later time at my destination', 'rearranging hotels and rides', etc.

Whether it's more frustrating than being denied at the gate is not something I've commented on.

 

[James Arryn]

6 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Wow, this seems to show a big misunderstanding of basic human psychology to me. I am absolutely sure that the huge majority of airline passengers would be much more emotionally upset by being removed from a flight after being seated than they would be by not being allowed to board an overbooked flight in the first place. Being already seated and then asked to leave would psychologically be much more frustrating -- once you're in your seat, you have emotionally begun your flight, whether or not the plane has taken off the ground. To not expect people to be much more disturbed in this situation than in the "standby bump" situation seems to show a lack of understanding of human nature.

While we're on the subject, what's the deal with conservatives and selective but extreme authoritarianism? It seems to be somewhat contrary, as revealed in their attitude towards governments they don't like, but towards governments they do and corporations in general you get this kind of automatic apologism and as we've seen here you get a corporate position contrary to evident visible fact quoted as 'all accounts'...just weird.

More, and further/very OT, but I'm really surprised conservatives are so into denying climate change. It seems to pretty much tick every box in the conservative narrative; nature/God establish a working balance, man's over involvement and flawed construction fucks everything up and now we're facing Impending Doom...that's like a right-wing script. I get why they'd distrust human/government mandated solutions, but not (at all) why they'd pull a whole Ostrich thing. It's why I think we're more in a corporate/authoritarian vs. humanist/liberal dynamic rather than the classic r/l.

/Pregnant digression.

[Prince of the North]

9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I googled what you said about Delta.  That's smart:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/how-delta-masters-the-game-of-overbooking-flights/

That is smart!  And I see it in action relatively often because Delta is the major air carrier in my neck o' the woods.  Hey, is that a shiny new policy at United Airlines I see on the horizon? 

[Ormond]

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

You're showing a big misunderstanding of what I said  Which was that of all the inconveniences associated with being bumped from a flight, being bumped after seated falls near the bottom.  Specifically, the inconveniences like 'arriving at a later time at my destination', 'rearranging hotels and rides', etc.

Whether it's more frustrating than being denied at the gate is not something I've commented on.

 

I think that for the great majority of human beings the degree of emotional frustration and upset associated with an event is a large part of evaluating how "inconvenient" it is. So I disagree with you that this is a lesser inconvenience.

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Prince of the North said:

That is smart!  And I see it in action relatively often because Delta is the major air carrier in my neck o' the woods.  Hey, is that a shiny new policy at United Airlines I see on the horizon? 

It's interesting, but I've flown on a LOT of Delta flights, it's my carrier of choice, and many of them have been over booked, and I've never seen this.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It's interesting, but I've flown on a LOT of Delta flights, it's my carrier of choice, and many of them have been over booked, and I've never seen this.

That's because it is going on in the background.  That's smart.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

4 hours ago, Swordfish said:

I suspect people calling for an end to overbooking would be the first to complain when fares rose as a result.

then maybe the FTC can look into the likely price fixing following the drop in oil prices and the price discrimination in selling tickets?

 

Also, it seems to me the people crying racism are being more racist than the person they're accusing. I'm pretty the guy was Vietnamese, not Chinese. And wtf? Asians have an inherent fear of police and authority?

I'm Chinese and my fiance is Vietnamese and I thought the sounds he was making was strange. I'm not holding it against him because of the situation he was in, but what does that have to do with his race? Different people make different sounds when in stressful sitiuations. Why does it have to be a sound "Chinese" people make?

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That's because it is going on in the background.  That's smart.

Um... What?

 

Quote

When Delta overbooks a flight, they let their passengers decide how much getting bumped is worth. I discovered this last week when I checked in online for my flight from Minneapolis to Philadelphia. What was the minimum I was willing to accept in travel vouchers to take a later flight — $500, $300, $200, less? After doing some rough mental calculations, I bid $300. High enough to cover most of a ticket to Mexico and low enough to be competitive without feeling exploited.

 

There is literally no possible way this program can happen 'in the background', since it requires input from the passengers.

 

1 minute ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

then maybe the FTC can look into the likely price fixing following the drop in oil prices and the price discrimination in selling tickets?

 

 

No idea what this has to do with the topic at hand..

 

 

[Prince of the North]

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

It's interesting, but I've flown on a LOT of Delta flights, it's my carrier of choice, and many of them have been over booked, and I've never seen this.

Yeah, that is interesting.  I just flew to Austin last month and the question was asked as I checked in for the return flight.  As mentioned in the article, I always go through Minneapolis with Delta.  Maybe it doesn't happen everywhere?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

There is literally no possible way this program can happen 'in the background', since it requires input from the passengers.

Sure it can, it's a silent bid as that person described it. You're handed a piece of paper and you bubble in your price. No one but you and any travel companion you might be with is going to know what you filled out.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Just now, Swordfish said:

Um... What?

 

 

There is literally no possible way this program can happen 'in the background', since it requires input from the passengers.

 

No idea what this has to do with the topic at hand..

 

 

If you're going to imply that overbooking is keeping prices artificially low, then you should also acknowledge the likely illegal ways in which airlines are keeping prices artificially high.

But you're right. It's not 100% on topic.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Um... What?

 

 

There is literally no possible way this program can happen 'in the background', since it requires input from the passengers.

 

No idea what this has to do with the topic at hand..

 

 

It's not happening at the gate.  That was the point of the article.

From the article:

Delta started this practice back in 2011, and it works like this: When passengers on overbooked flights check in online or at the check-in kiosk, they’re asked what the dollar value of the travel voucher they would accept as compensation for volunteering their seats. They give you a hint, too — “Delta accepts lower bids first.” By the time you reach the gate, the gate attendants already have a list of passengers to call up to confirm they’ll fly standby. If your bid is low enough, you’ll be on that list.

In a race to the bottom, one has to wonder if customers are shortchanging themselves. I asked Max Bazerman what he thought. He’s a professor at Harvard Business School who spends a lot of time thinking about negotiations and decision-making. What if passengers cooperated rather than competed? We could make a pact not to bid below, say, $300.By having customers compete against one another to give up their seats, Delta ensures it can just about always lock in the lowest possible payout. How low can you go? The ground is the limit.

[BloodRider]

http://i.imgur.com/99dgkTs.gif

Who knew Indiana worked for UA.

[Swordfish]

46 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Sure it can, it's a silent bid as that person described it. You're handed a piece of paper and you bubble in your price. No one but you and any travel companion you might be with is going to know what you filled out.

Right.  but in order to bid, I need to know about it.  I've never seen it, or been asked to bid.

Which obviously doesn't mean it isn't happening.  it was just an observation.

 

42 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

If you're going to imply that overbooking is keeping prices artificially low, then you should also acknowledge the likely illegal ways in which airlines are keeping prices artificially high.

But you're right. It's not 100% on topic.

I didn't suggest that overbooking is keeping prices artificially low.  there's nothing artificial about it.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It's not happening at the gate.  That was the point of the article.

From the article:
 

 

yes.  I understand that.  When i fly delta, i always check in.  When i have checked in, I have not been asked to bid.

 

 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Swordfish said:

I very much doubt that that is done via a simple spreadsheet.  What kinds of evidence are you looking for here, specifically?

ten seconds on google:

https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/11/overbooking/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-4401096/Experts-reveal-airlines-overbook-seats.html

Includes a ted talk.

OK, so the answer to:

3 hours ago, mormont said:

Where do they lay out how much it would cost to remove over-booking, for example? Where is their evidence?

is: 'not in either of these two links'.

I'll save you another ten seconds. The figures aren't out there. The airlines won't release them: they'll undoubtedly regard them as too commercially sensitive for public release. Data about how many times overbooking results in a bump is one thing, data about how much it would cost to remove overbooking is another.

[Swordfish]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

OK, so the answer to:

is: 'not in either of these two links'.

I'll save you another ten seconds. The figures aren't out there. The airlines won't release them: they'll undoubtedly regard them as too commercially sensitive for public release. Data about how many times overbooking results in a bump is one thing, data about how much it would cost to remove overbooking is another.

Um.  OK?

i don't really know what you are looking for here, other than an opportunity to disagree with me.

it's reasonable based on what we do know that there would be an increase in ticket prices if overbooking was stopped.  

Are you disputing that?