Heavy D

Jon should bend his knees.

288 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Capo Ferro said:

 

Jon is, I think, unlikely to bend the knee anytime soon as an important theme of both the show and the book is kingship, birthright, and royal obligation.   We see this in the Wildlings refusal to kneel, a viewpoint which Jon has clearly always been sympathetic to, we see it in Jamie's decision to kill the mad King as he prepared to burn his people, we saw it even with Tywin as he instructed Joffrey.  Can a king refuse to protect the people he claims kingship over simply because they refuse obedience?  Joffrey would have said yes.  Do we really think the show or the books are leading us to the point where Daenerys says there same?  

We've seen all this played out before in the north.  Stannis bullheadedly demanding that Mance and the Wildlings bend the knee 

Jon himself was in Daenerys's position as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  He needed the help of the (far) North, he saw it as part of his duty to protect even the Wildlings because they are within the world of men.  He let them behind the wall -- gave them his protection -- without requiring them to bend the knee.  

I think the show and books both are leading us to the point where Daenerys is forced to recognize that her right to rule can't come from birthright it can come only from the fact that she protects her people and so they consent to her rule.

Let the north and the Starks face the Night's King on their own.  Let's see how long it takes for that pride to come down.  

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14 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Let the north and the Starks face the Night's King on their own.  Let's see how long it takes for that pride to come down.  

Dany's pride you mean? Jon isn't doing this out of a sense of pride, he's being practical. He can't just bend the knee and expect the lords of the North to follow Dany, because to them she is a foreign ruler, the daughter of a mad deposed king who killed their former Lord. Jon has no pride in this moment. It is Dany that is continually being obnoxiously proud.

I hope that the show is leading us to a point where Dany realizes that she is no better than Cersei if she doesn't protect the people she wants to rule. My main criticism of Dany all along has been that she has done nothing to earn her rule. She just thinks she is entitled to it. If she turns her back on taking the Iron Throne immediately, if she decides that she must put aside her pride and safe the people and earn their support. Then finally she will show she is worthy. I hope that's where the show is going, but I'm not certain that it is. 

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15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Let the north and the Starks face the Night's King on their own.  Let's see how long it takes for that pride to come down.  

Certainly she has a strong tactical position.  Wiser than letting the army of the dead destroy the north and in so doing lose the significant protection of the wall would be simply flying north and conquering them herself with her dragons, and make Winterfell a second Herrenhall, which she presumably could do. 

But the point of the books and show does not seem to be "people need to be loyal to Kings because they were born Kings" or even (though a stronger case can be made here) "people need to be loyal to Kings because they're powerful".  

All the characters who have shown any wisdom have at some point made the point or realized that Kings have as much a duty to their subjects as the other way around and that Kings rule because the people allow it.  It seems clear to me that Daenerys is going to be led to this realization if she's to become queen at all.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Dany's pride you mean? Jon isn't doing this out of a sense of pride, he's being practical. He can't just bend the knee and expect the lords of the North to follow Dany, because to them she is a foreign ruler, the daughter of a mad deposed king who killed their former Lord. Jon has no pride in this moment. It is Dany that is continually being obnoxiously proud.

I hope that the show is leading us to a point where Dany realizes that she is no better than Cersei if she doesn't protect the people she wants to rule. My main criticism of Dany all along has been that she has done nothing to earn her rule. She just thinks she is entitled to it. If she turns her back on taking the Iron Throne immediately, if she decides that she must put aside her pride and safe the people and earn their support. Then finally she will show she is worthy. I hope that's where the show is going, but I'm not certain that it is. 

I kind of agree with this, to the extent that Dany is most definitely doing this out of pride.  But I disagree to the extent that I also think Jon is refusing out of a sense of a pride.  As Dany told Jon, the North will follow her if Jon tells them to, but Jon is a little too proud at the moment to do that.  

I agree with your 2nd paragraph- I think ultimately the show is wrapping things up in a nice and clean way (which won't be nearly the same in the books, assuming we ever get those) and we will see both Jon and Dany compromise on the whole "knee-bending" thing and realize it's ultimately pointless.  

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Dany's pride you mean? Jon isn't doing this out of a sense of pride, he's being practical. He can't just bend the knee and expect the lords of the North to follow Dany, because to them she is a foreign ruler, the daughter of a mad deposed king who killed their former Lord. Jon has no pride in this moment. It is Dany that is continually being obnoxiously proud.

I hope that the show is leading us to a point where Dany realizes that she is no better than Cersei if she doesn't protect the people she wants to rule. My main criticism of Dany all along has been that she has done nothing to earn her rule. She just thinks she is entitled to it. If she turns her back on taking the Iron Throne immediately, if she decides that she must put aside her pride and safe the people and earn their support. Then finally she will show she is worthy. I hope that's where the show is going, but I'm not certain that it is. 

Dany has the resources that Jon needs.  That bastard hasn't given anything in return.  Dany should absolutely withold support until Jon, Sansa, and the north bend their collective knees.  Jon is too proud.  We need to see that jerk humbled down.  He is the one who knows the threat.  He is the one asking for help.  You lower your pride and humbly ask for help.  The north will suffer the most.  The north has the least resources.  Jon is in a poor bargaining situation.  There is no room for his pride.  Dany has shown herself to be the bigger person by offering to help.  Jon offered nothing but refusal.  

 

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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11 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I kind of agree with this, to the extent that Dany is most definitely doing this out of pride.  But I disagree to the extent that I also think Jon is refusing out of a sense of a pride.  As Dany told Jon, the North will follow her if Jon tells them to, but Jon is a little too proud at the moment to do that.  

I don't think it's pride with Jon. It's a sense of responsibility.  His "parliament" named him King in the North. He isn't arrogant enough to just make that decision for all of the north. He's not that kind of king. 

The arrogance, pride and sense of entitlement is all Dany. 

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1 minute ago, Lurid Jester said:

I don't think it's pride with Jon. It's a sense of responsibility.  His "parliament" named him King in the North. He isn't arrogant enough to just make that decision for all of the north. He's not that kind of king. 

The arrogance, pride and sense of entitlement is all Dany. 

The North told him in no uncertain terms that he shouldn't go to Dragonstone. He ignored them anyway. He was questioned about his decision to restore lands to the Karstarks and Umber by both Royce and Sansa. He did it anyway, saying that his word is final. So yes, he is arrogant enough to make decisions for all of the North despite his Lord's objections because he has already done it twice already.

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Just now, El Guapo said:

The North told him in no uncertain terms that he shouldn't go to Dragonstone. He ignored them anyway. He was questioned about his decision to restore lands to the Karstarks and Umber by both Royce and Sansa. He did it anyway, saying that his word is final. So yes, he is arrogant enough to make decisions for all of the North despite his Lord's objections because he has already done it twice already.

Jon is being a hypocrite.  He ignored his people and did what he wanted with regards to the Karstarks and the Umbers.  Now he claims he's not bending the knee simply because his people doesn't want him to.  Jon is an arrogant jerk.  

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25 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I kind of agree with this, to the extent that Dany is most definitely doing this out of pride.  But I disagree to the extent that I also think Jon is refusing out of a sense of a pride.  As Dany told Jon, the North will follow her if Jon tells them to, but Jon is a little too proud at the moment to do that.  

I agree with your 2nd paragraph- I think ultimately the show is wrapping things up in a nice and clean way (which won't be nearly the same in the books, assuming we ever get those) and we will see both Jon and Dany compromise on the whole "knee-bending" thing and realize it's ultimately pointless.  

SOmeone sees the light :D:D:D:D

The Iron Throne means nothing, Daenerys pride means nothing, Jon most definitely is not refusing out of sense of pride.

Both will realise that the WW are the focus.

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Jon should do no such thing and I will lose massive amounts of respect for him if he does. 

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36 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

I kind of agree with this, to the extent that Dany is most definitely doing this out of pride.  But I disagree to the extent that I also think Jon is refusing out of a sense of a pride.  As Dany told Jon, the North will follow her if Jon tells them to, but Jon is a little too proud at the moment to do that.    

You have to understand why Jon might be a little wary about doing something his Lords disagree with and expecting them to go along with it. It didn't quite win them over when he tried that at the Wall. 

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5 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

As others mentioned, the major practical reason that prevents Jon to bend the knee now is that there is a high probability that it will be a moot act, because the North will not follow. He just had to unite the North, most people did not agree that he went south to see Danny, and they already have Samsa, Arya and Bran. Bending the knee will sound more as a defection than an act that represents the north.

If he speaks with the Northern lords and them he bends the knee that will make some sense...(not saying that it is a good idea or that will gonna happen).

He has to speak to them really, though I suspect he won't and will send a raven declaring he has bent the knee, causing a further rift between him and Sansa much to Littlefinger's joyful twitching. 

The interesting thing is that while I believe Dany is showing quite a poor attitude, she has essentially posed the same dilemma that Jon posed to Mance before he was burnt. Jon questioned Mance, suggesting it was more pride that prevented him from bending the knee that anything else. Now Jon has been questioned in the same manner. I wonder if he thought twice in that moment about what he had asked Mance to do, only a King can understand a King and all that...yet what makes a King? Accepting the will of his people even possibly to their own detriment (Mance) or by challenging their beliefs and to try and help them see that there is always another way.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

You have to understand why Jon might be a little wary about doing something his Lords disagree with and expecting them to go along with it. It didn't quite win them over when he tried that at the Wall. 

As pointed out above by El Guapo, he's already done that twice this season.  His Lords disagreed (at least initially) with his decision not to punish Alys Karstark and Ned Umber, and they certainly disagreed with his decision to go to Dragonstone in the first place.  But he did both those things anyway, because he was convinced he was doing so in their best interest.  

The same calculus is at play here.  Call it pride, call it whatever you want, but Jon is currently withholding support from Dany because he does not believe it is in his and the Northern Lords' best interests to bend the knee.  Him and Dany are both currently getting to that point (I think at least) where "bending the knee" doesn't really matter.

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38 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany has the resources that Jon needs.  That bastard hasn't given anything in return.  Dany should absolutely withold support until Jon, Sansa, and the north bend their collective knees.  Jon is too proud.  We need to see that jerk humbled down.  He is the one who knows the threat.  He is the one asking for help.  You lower your pride and humbly ask for help.  The north will suffer the most.  The north has the least resources.  Jon is in a poor bargaining situation.  There is no room for his pride.  Dany has shown herself to be the bigger person by offering to help.  Jon offered nothing but refusal.  

 

Sounds like you just don't like Jon. Dany has done nothing to prove that she is any better to rule the Seven Kingdoms than Cersei. Especially after having to seeks *Jon's* advice about whether she should just burn King's Landing to ground. Jon doesn't know if she's just another mad Targaryen and she's done nothing to prove that she isn't.

As I've said before the only time we get any idea of why we should like Dany or why people follow her it comes from other characters, like Missandei. The writers feel like this means Dany herself doesn't have to show any positive character traits or explain to anyone why she ought to rule beyond "I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms." Jon has no reason to want her to be the queen, he just wants her dragons and needs her dragonglass. 

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5 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

As pointed out above by El Guapo, he's already done that twice this season.  His Lords disagreed (at least initially) with his decision not to punish Alys Karstark and Ned Umber, and they certainly disagreed with his decision to go to Dragonstone in the first place.  But he did both those things anyway, because he was convinced he was doing so in their best interest.  

The same calculus is at play here.  Call it pride, call it whatever you want, but Jon is currently withholding support from Dany because he does not believe it is in his and the Northern Lords' best interests to bend the knee.  Him and Dany are both currently getting to that point (I think at least) where "bending the knee" doesn't really matter.

To me this is quite different from Dany's insistence that he bend the knee in the first place. On Jon's side I see a calculated decision about what is best for him and his people and on Dany's I see a prideful demand that does nothing other than stroke her ego.  

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23 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

The North told him in no uncertain terms that he shouldn't go to Dragonstone. He ignored them anyway. He was questioned about his decision to restore lands to the Karstarks and Umber by both Royce and Sansa. He did it anyway, saying that his word is final. So yes, he is arrogant enough to make decisions for all of the North despite his Lord's objections because he has already done it twice already.

You're comparing apples and zucchini. 

There is a huge difference between not holding children responsible for the crimes of their fathers, and swearing fealty to an invading army.  There is a huge difference between traveling south to ask for aid and dragonglass to use in a war against the undead, and going south to hand the two kingdoms loyal to you over to an invading army.  

It could be that if he was able to easily travel from Dragonstone and back he might present it to the lords of the north and the vale. He might even be able to sway them (with Davos help) but to just bend the knee and send a raven north saying "hey, you all fight for Dany now" those northern lords would recall their forces to heir own keeps and either die to the walkers or to the dragons later on. 

If Jon had his way he'd either be a ranger of the Night's Watch. Every time he's been elevated it was because others raised him up. He is one of the least arrogant characters in the series, for someone raised among the highborn anyway. ;)

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Except Jon made it perfectly clear; he isn't sure the North will follow him if he does. In which case, Jon loses any hope of leading the North in their fight against the White Walkers and might open them up to a civil war and Daenerys loses the North as potential allies.

If Daenerys believes Jon's claim (which she seems to this episode) then she is basically saying that, if Jon refuses to kneel, two things will happen: 1 - she will refuse to help the North and 2 - she is confident enough that she can beat the army of the dead after they hit the South and are swelled by the entire Northern population. 1 kind of dispels the notion that Dany really cares about the people she intends to rule and 2 shows a hefty amount of arrogance.

And I had to laugh: 'Is your pride more important that helping your people?' Erm, Daenerys, you literally just heard Jon's reasons for not kneeling and they have nothing to do with pride. Your refusal to help unless they kneel is the very definition of pride (before practicality and morality).

Mind you, if Jon or Dany had a brain cell between them they would agree to either marry (making the Targaryen rule more palatable to the Northerners) or agree to put off the question of kneeling until after the dead are defeated; after all, the North might be considerably more willing to kneel after Queen Daenerys and her dragons send the armies of the dead back to hell by the thousands.

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6 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

 Call it pride, call it whatever you want, but Jon is currently withholding support from Dany because he does not believe it is in his and the Northern Lords' best interests to bend the knee. 

I don't think Jon cares about being King. It is not pride. I think is just the fact that the Northern would not accept something so sudden and it will backfire (no pun intended...). I think if Jon had the blind faith of his bannerman he would bend the knee in a heartbeat.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

To me this is quite different from Dany's insistence that he bend the knee in the first place. On Jon's side I see a calculated decision about what is best for him and his people and on Dany's I see a prideful demand that does nothing other than stroke her ego.  

Stroke her own ego?  She is the one providing herself, the Dragons, and her armies to help out Jon and the North.  Again, I think once it becomes clear that the White Walker threat is real, and once she honestly believes it and sees it for herself, she might back off this demand.  I don't see this as stroking her own ego at all- she is making the same calculated decision about what is best for her and her people as Jon is.  

 

19 minutes ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

I don't think Jon cares about being King. It is not pride. I think is just the fact that the Northern would not accept something so sudden and it will backfire (no pun intended...). I think if Jon had the blind faith of his bannerman he would bend the knee in a heartbeat.

Well, we'd have to see the specifics of what exactly "bending the knee" would involve, but if Jon went back to Winterfell and actually made the argument for doing it, it's possible he could convince them to do so.  We don't know this, because again Jon has outright refused so far.  Jon's been pretty open in terms of debating decisions around the Northern Lords so I don't see why he wouldn't do the same here (assuming he could i.e. disregarding issues of timing and whether he's actually still a "prisoner" on Dragonstone)

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Come on, guys, it is quite clear that he will bend the knee. That is inevitable. But there is no sense in discussing the details since the show doesn't make any sense.

Any sane guy would have asked Dany for help against 'the army of the dead' and offered his own hand in marriage in exchange, giving her the North as a bride gift (and becoming the consort or co-ruler of the Queen on the Iron Throne in the process of the whole thing).

That's basically what Quentyn did in the books and what any unmarried pretender king in Westeros would do once Daenerys Targaryen shows up.

It is what Euron does when he presents himself to Cersei. That Jon doesn't do that kind of thing - and that Dany doesn't really consider marrying this guy when she actually left Daario - her true love - back in Slaver's Bay last season so she was free to marry after arriving in Westeros - simply makes no sense.

Making this whole thing into a pissing contest between two people who don't want to fall in love is just silly.

We can only hope George is not going to intend to write their story similarly in the books.

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