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Tyrion1991

(Spoilers) - The War makes no sense

273 posts in this topic

Cersei shouldn't be alive anymore. She should have died this season. But the showrunners love Lena so she stays.

My biggest gripe of everything so far, is that they are making characters very black and white instead of shades of grey. That drives me nuts. The only character with shades left is probably Danny? Maybe? But everyone else is pretty much just pure good or pure evil. 

The show has turned into a cliche fantasy story, the thing GRRM has tried so hard to avoid with this series.

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Cersei took everything out of Casterly Rock. Now it's just a building. Without any resources it's useless. So Dany haven't gained anything by ambushing CR. Instead she lost her fleet, and was cut off from her army. Cersei took away all resources from Westerlands and Reach. Gold, grain, and everything else, including people that are still loyal to Iron Throne. Now Cersei has money to repay crown's debt to Iron Bank, and to buy 20,000 sellswords from Golden Company, enough grain to sustain King's Landing thru long winter. And what she lost was just a few dozens of expendable soldiers, and an empty building. Of course it was a victory.

Also Cersei and Jaime were living in King's Landing since 283 AC, for over 17 years, all their children were born there, so Casterly Rock is not their home anymore, wasn't their home for many years. WHAT PSYCHOLOGICAL BLOW? Are you SERIOUS?

That house/castle has been in their family since Lann the Clever took it and he is from the first men (supposedly). The rock has been in the family FOREVER. She has childhood memories there, she even shares quite a few with Jamie throughout the series. 

She idolizes her father and she seems to care about legacy almost as much as him, it's safe to say that her character would have cared about the castle and arguably not given it up so easily.

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On 11.09.2017 at 1:31 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

You would be forgiven for thinking most of the Lannister army was destroyed and all of its grain which was explicitly mentioned as being vital to continue the war.

Soldiers that fought in Highgarden, and later were anixilated by dothrakis and Drogon, came from Casterly Rock.

Furthermore Dany killed only small part of those soldiers, because majority of them already arrived at KL, together with gold and grain.

Aside from garnizones stationed at Casterly Rock, Lannisters also have soldiers stationed at Riverrun in Edmur's castle, and in King's Landing. So in a battle against dothraki they lost maybe several hundreds, or at most one-two thousands soldiers. 

Most of Lannisters army all this time was and still is at KL.

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55 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Cersei took everything out of Casterly Rock. Now it's just a building. Without any resources it's useless. So Dany haven't gained anything by ambushing CR. Instead she lost her fleet, and was cut off from her army. Cersei took away all resources from Westerlands and Reach. Gold, grain, and everything else, including people that are still loyal to Iron Throne. Now Cersei has money to repay crown's debt to Iron Bank, and to buy 20,000 sellswords from Golden Company, enough grain to sustain King's Landing thru long winter (soldiers weren't destroying grain, they were gathering crops, they took away food from Reach and transported it to King's Landing. Reach/Highgarden will starve during winter.). And what she lost was just a few dozens of expendable soldiers, and an empty building. Of course it was a victory.

Also Cersei and Jaime were living in King's Landing since 283 AC, for over 17 years, all their children were born there, so Casterly Rock is not their home anymore, wasn't their home for many years. WHAT PSYCHOLOGICAL BLOW? Are you SERIOUS?

The seat of a great house has value whether it is empty or not. the psychological blow does not effect them but their allies, as if they cannot protect their ancestral home then how can they win this war i.e. Winterfell and the Starks. But because this is the Lannisters this does not affect them in the slightest because...reasons?!?! 

Also Jaime only emptied out casterly rock's food stores, the unsullied could have gotten enough food from lannisport and other areas of the Westerlands to sustain them on their march.

Again, Jaime only took the gold and food stores that were in Highgarden as taking all the food from the entire Reach would breed enmity against the crown. 

 

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2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

That house/castle has been in their family since Lann the Clever took it and he is from the first men (supposedly). The rock has been in the family FOREVER. She has childhood memories there, she even shares quite a few with Jamie throughout the series. 

She idolizes her father and she seems to care about legacy almost as much as him, it's safe to say that her character would have cared about the castle and arguably not given it up so easily.

S7E1:

"JAIME: We never talked about Tommen.

CERSEI: There's nothing to say.

JAIME: Our baby boy killed himself.

CERSEI: He betrayed me. He betrayed us both. Should we spend our days mourning the dead--mother, father, and all our children?

JAIME: Cersei

CERSEI: I loved them. I did. But they're ashes now and we're still flesh and blood, We're the last Lannisters, the last ones who count."

She decided not to be stuck in the past. So why should she care about some stupid Rock? Ashes to ashes. Amen ^_^

2 hours ago, btfu806 said:

My biggest gripe of everything so far, is that they are making characters very black and white instead of shades of grey. That drives me nuts. The only character with shades left is probably Danny? Maybe? But everyone else is pretty much just pure good or pure evil. 

Cersei is grey.

Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Melisandre, Sand girls and Sand Mom, and many others are grey. You just don't see from their point of view.

There's no 'white' characters at all. Out of everyone Jon is the purest, but he also did bad/wrong things:

Spoiler

1. He tried to desert Night's Watch.

2. When he became Lord Commander he beheaded that guy that refused to obey his order, even though he could've given him second chance, after showing to him who's in charge.

3. He let wildlings to go to this side of The Wall, because he planned to use them later, to fight against Night's King.

Before he went to Hardhome, before he freed Tormund, he recieved ravens with replies to his earlier requests, to send reinforcements to replentish NW's forces. Nearly everyone wrote to him that they're too busy with their own problems, thus they won't help him. And only THEN he decided to let wildlings to come south. He told everyone that he's helping wildlings, to save them from WW, but actually he saved them to use them later.

He posed as a saviour, while actually he was an exploiter <- that's VERY grey.

4. He executed people that killed him.

If he was 'white' he would've let them go, just exiled them from NW. Because they did what they thought was right. They haven't chosen him as their Lord Commander, they were among those people who supported his election's rival. They thought that letting wildling thru gates is a treachery of NW's, so they did what they thought was rightful, they killed the traitor. By letting wildlings thru, Jon corrupted Night's Watch. And those people didn't pledged to Lord Commander who is in cohorts with wildlings - longtime enemies of NW's. So they weren't obliged to obey him, and to accept wildlings. Jon changed core policies of Night's Watch. If certain people were against it, he should've set them free from Night's Watch. But he did what he wanted, and they did what they thought they had to do. Their opposing factions acted according to their beliefes. It isn't rightful to execute people for what they thought was just. If he was 'white' he would've let them go. But what he did was grey - they killed him, he killed them, it was a payback.

5. He let Melisandre go. Even though she killed innocent little girl, burned her alive while her mother and father was watching this. And then she betrayed Stannis, and run away. If Jon was white, he would've executed her. Not let her go, as gratitude for reviving him. That was a selfish grey action.

Cersei is very complicated and interesting character, and she is very very grey. Definitely not black.

Out of all characters in GOT there was only several black: Joffrey Baratheon, Euron Greyjoy, Ramsay Bolton, Night's King <- though last one is just a machine programmed to kill people, he has no free will (it was taken from him by Children of the Forest), so it wouldn't be correct to label him as black, he's an object, not a subject. He's like Mister Smith in The Matrix trilogy. He's a part of system that was separated from that system, and started to act on its own, and eventually opposed its creator. Night's King is more like a natural disaster or global disease, than a black character.

So out of dozens characters only 3 are/were black.

Forgot about the Mountain. 4.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Cersei took everything out of Casterly Rock. Now it's just a building. Without any resources it's useless. So Dany haven't gained anything by ambushing CR. Instead she lost her fleet, and was cut off from her army. Cersei took away all resources from Westerlands and Reach. Gold, grain, and everything else, including people that are still loyal to Iron Throne. Now Cersei has money to repay crown's debt to Iron Bank, and to buy 20,000 sellswords from Golden Company, enough grain to sustain King's Landing thru long winter (soldiers weren't destroying grain, they were gathering crops, they took away food from Reach and transported it to King's Landing. Reach/Highgarden will starve during winter.). And what she lost was just a few dozens of expendable soldiers, and an empty building. Of course it was a victory.

Also Cersei and Jaime were living in King's Landing since 283 AC, for over 17 years, all their children were born there, so Casterly Rock is not their home anymore, wasn't their home for many years. WHAT PSYCHOLOGICAL BLOW? Are you SERIOUS?

 

Yes, remember how everybody betrayed Rob and thought he had lost when he lost Winterfell. Losing that building is a big deal.

How exactly was Dany not able to intercept that army laden with wagons that had further to travel when she has dragons and Dothraki? That's extremely questionable and basically amounts to plot armor to keep Cersei in the war. 

So you are saying that without the bulk of their army they defeated the Tyrell's? Who have a much bigger host and a fortress? Plus Dany and Varys couldn't intercept that army before it got to Highgarden and why was Dany not present for the attack on Casterly Rock to destroy Eurons fleet? 

So far Cersei has been spectacularly lucky for all of this to pan out her way and for no defections among the Western Lords who should hate her for murdering Kevin Lannister. Her incestouos twin brother/lover abandons her but the Lords of Westeros and people stay loyal? 

 

 

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So Tyrell loose when they loose their seat, Stark loose, Tullys loose and so on ...

But because this is not season 2 where Tywin gives inspiring speeches to Arya about the meaning and history of Harrenhall .... who gives a fuck if you loose the Rock, one of the strongest castles in Westeros. Plus Lannisport. Who gives a fuck about Lannisport, one of the largest cities in Westeros .... because ... we have King's Landing ... yeaaaaaaaah. Rock'n Roll baby.

It's almost as if Tywin was completely pointless with his ideas of drawing an image of power. Tywin ? Lul. 

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22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Cersei is grey.
[...]
Cersei is very complicated and interesting character, and she is very very grey. Definitely not black.

I'm sorry, but she is not, at least not anymore. 
She was grey at some point in the series when she had children to love and care for.
Her speech after Myrcellas death ("She didn't have a spark of evil in her. I thought that if I could create something so beautiful and pure, then perhaps I'm not a monster") was one of the most grey (and good) things Cersei has ever said.

That Cersei is long dead however, and the Cersei of season 7 is not a grey character. She is very much a evil, bloodthirsty and narcissistic tyrant, as black as her wardrobe, who rules trough fear, intimidation, deceit and murder.
Is the a complicated, interesting and complex character? Yes. But she is no longer a grey character.

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On 9/11/2017 at 0:46 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

They're in an even harder place now. Because they can't just turn around and start having things go bad for Cersei. If the Lords have followed her up to this point and their opinion of Dany is so toxic; a total 180 on those things would appear jarring.

Somehow I don't see this being an issue for them. They will have her allies flip on her when the plot demands it, and it will be a HEAVILY watered down bastardization of the consequences we have seen befall other main characters. This is pretty par for the course now.

 

Her incestouos twin brother/lover abandons her but the Lords of Westeros and people stay loyal? 

The instant Jaime learned she blew up the Sept he should have walked away. Even if it was love that kept him there, they should have at least shown him clearly not liking what she has become and have him constantly butt heads. Jaime of episode 7 should have been Jaime of all of season 7.

Edited by MrJay

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2 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

The seat of a great house has value whether it is empty or not.

Cersei was smart enough not to fight for a chair :D

Quote

the psychological blow does not effect them but their allies

Even if Tyrion or Dany will sit at Casterly Rock, and declare themselves as Wardens of the West, or Lords of Westerlands, people of those lands won't ackowledge them, won't obey them, won't serve them. Also Cersei took from there not only supplies, but also people (lords, knights, servants). Who are they going to command in CR? there's no one there. It's a ghost castle. As was Dragonstone. Without resources, without people and court, a castle is just a building with a big chair in it.

Quote

as if they cannot protect their ancestral home

Nostalgy is overrated.

Casterly Rock is their past, while King's Landing is their present. Why would they devide their forces, and thus risk their current seat of power, for something that became useless? Gold mines of Westelands are expended, they used to be main sorce of power and fortune for Lannister family, but they are already empty.

Dropping their emotional baggage was a really smart move.

So I think that Lannisters' supporters will appreciate Cersei's wisdom, and her decision not to send them to fight for a mere symbol, and waste time, lives and resources, and all that while Barbarian Queen and her dragons may attack 7K's capital any moment.

In their eyes Cersei has chosen common good of KL's people, over her personal interests in maintaining her ancestral home.

Quote

then how can they win this war i.e. Winterfell and the Starks.

Letting their soldiers and resourses to be seiged at CR, wouldn't make them any closer to their victory over Starks. But to use resources smartly will heighten their chances to win. In KL lives more people than in entire North, this region has more people, more resources, more of everything.

Starks are not a threat to Lannisters. Without Dany's help, Starks have no chances to win against Cersei.

Quote

But because this is the Lannisters this does not affect them in the slightest because...reasons?!?! 

If they will be smart (and so far by abandoning useless Rock and stupid Chair they were), after main battle will be over (and they will win this battle) they will reclaim Casterly Rock.

If Lannisters won't be sitting in their chair on their rock, and it will be empty for a few months, it won't make them lesser Lannisters that they are. Because they themselves made this desicion. Like a lizard drops its tail, to save main body, they also chosen what is more important. Tail will regrow again / they will take back their chair later.

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plot twist: The Targaryens are the greatest dynasty in Westeros because they can always come back later .... to King's Landing. :P

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3 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Again, Jaime only took the gold and food stores that were in Highgarden as taking all the food from the entire Reach would breed enmity against the crown.

S7E4:

"RANDYLL TARLEY and his son DICKON come riding up on horseback. RANDYLL addresses JAIME.

RANDYLL: The granaries are being emptied and loaded into wagons, My Lord.

JAIME: The current harvest?

DICKON: We have teams of men collecting it and more farmers in the Reach.

JAIME looks over to BRONN.

JAIME: Ser Bronn, will you accompany the Tarleys and help them accelerate this process?

BRONN: I'm not much for shoveling weight.

JAIME: No, but motivating reluctant farmers to hand over their harvest, I've heard you guys have a real talent for that."

 

Later at Dragonstone:

"DAENERYS: You will stay. All my allies are gone. They've been taken from me while I've been sitting here on this island.

TYRION: We still have the largest army.

DAENERYS: Who won't be able to eat because Cersei has taken all the food from the Reach."

 

Scripts from here:

https://genius.com/albums/Game-of-thrones/Season-7-scripts

Edited by Megorova

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As someone who lives under a dictatorship, i can understand Cersei's reign not ending in 3 days. We'll probably see actual unrest against her next season since winter came to KL

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

S7E1:

"JAIME: We never talked about Tommen.

CERSEI: There's nothing to say.

JAIME: Our baby boy killed himself.

CERSEI: He betrayed me. He betrayed us both. Should we spend our days mourning the dead--mother, father, and all our children?

JAIME: Cersei

CERSEI: I loved them. I did. But they're ashes now and we're still flesh and blood, We're the last Lannisters, the last ones who count."

She decided not to be stuck in the past. So why should she care about some stupid Rock? Ashes to ashes. Amen ^_^

Cersei is grey.

Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Melisandre, Sand girls and Sand Mom, and many others are grey. You just don't see from their point of view.

There's no 'white' characters at all. Out of everyone Jon is the purest, but he also did bad/wrong things:

  Reveal hidden contents

1. He tried to desert Night's Watch.

2. When he became Lord Commander he beheaded that guy that refused to obey his order, even though he could've given him second chance, after showing to him who's in charge.

3. He let wildlings to go to this side of The Wall, because he planned to use them later, to fight against Night's King.

Before he went to Hardhome, before he freed Tormund, he recieved ravens with replies to his earlier requests, to send reinforcements to replentish NW's forces. Nearly everyone wrote to him that they're too busy with their own problems, thus they won't help him. And only THEN he decided to let wildlings to come south. He told everyone that he's helping wildlings, to save them from WW, but actually he saved them to use them later.

He posed as a saviour, while actually he was an exploiter <- that's VERY grey.

4. He executed people that killed him.

If he was 'white' he would've let them go, just exiled them from NW. Because they did what they thought was right. They haven't chosen him as their Lord Commander, they were among those people who supported his election's rival. They thought that letting wildling thru gates is a treachery of NW's, so they did what they thought was rightful, they killed the traitor. By letting wildlings thru, Jon corrupted Night's Watch. And those people didn't pledged to Lord Commander who is in cohorts with wildlings - longtime enemies of NW's. So they weren't obliged to obey him, and to accept wildlings. Jon changed core policies of Night's Watch. If certain people were against it, he should've set them free from Night's Watch. But he did what he wanted, and they did what they thought they had to do. Their opposing factions acted according to their beliefes. It isn't rightful to execute people for what they thought was just. If he was 'white' he would've let them go. But what he did was grey - they killed him, he killed them, it was a payback.

5. He let Melisandre go. Even though she killed innocent little girl, burned her alive while her mother and father was watching this. And then she betrayed Stannis, and run away. If Jon was white, he would've executed her. Not let her go, as gratitude for reviving him. That was a selfish grey action.

Cersei is very complicated and interesting character, and she is very very grey. Definitely not black.

Out of all characters in GOT there was only several black: Joffrey Baratheon, Euron Greyjoy, Ramsay Bolton, Night's King <- though last one is just a machine programmed to kill people, he has no free will (it was taken from him by Children of the Forest), so it wouldn't be correct to label him as black, he's an object, not a subject. He's like Mister Smith in The Matrix trilogy. He's a part of system that was separated from that system, and started to act on its own, and eventually opposed its creator. Night's King is more like a natural disaster or global disease, than a black character.

So out of dozens characters only 3 are/were black.

Forgot about the Mountain. 4.

Cersei is far from Grey. So very very far. 

MinscS2 said it well enough already so I will just quote him:

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm sorry, but she is not, at least not anymore. 
She was grey at some point in the series when she had children to love and care for.
Her speech after Myrcellas death ("She didn't have a spark of evil in her. I thought that if I could create something so beautiful and pure, then perhaps I'm not a monster") was one of the most grey (and good) things Cersei has ever said.

That Cersei is long dead however, and the Cersei of season 7 is not a grey character. She is very much a evil, bloodthirsty and narcissistic tyrant, as black as her wardrobe, who rules trough fear, intimidation, deceit and murder.
Is the a complicated, interesting and complex character? Yes. But she is no longer a grey character.

You can argue that sure Arya isn't white, but she sure is on her way to pure white. Jon did bad things in the past sure, he is now white. Dany, Sansa, everyone in the north, etc., are pretty well defined white characters.

With your "there are only several that are black" characters, I agree with that, that's how it was. But Cersei is black (you can argue other wise but she is just evil now) but pretty much everyone on her side is "black." 

The Night King is just the Night King so we don't have to get into that.

But maybe I phrased it wrong poorly before, they all used to be very grey characters and were amazing at that. I don't think there is a single true grey character left after that finale of season 7. But if you feel there is, that's fine. You have your opinion, I have mine.

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Yeah, the grey in a lot of characters who are still alive has started to either fade and is becoming more and more white, or darken and is becoming more and more black. The nuances are slowly but surely being removed.

I'm not necessarily saying that this is a bad thing though, in fact given where the story is currently heading I'd almost say it's unavoidable.
Characters now either band together and unite against something which threatens to destroy the world, requiring them to work and fight together despite their differences -> natural progression towards good and white, or characters ignore the larger threat, only think of themselves and even considers stabbing those willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the world in the back -> natural progression towards evil and black.
It's hard to stay neutral and grey in a situation like this. 

Even Jamie, the character I personally think personifies the term "grey character" is becoming less and less grey.

 

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6 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

As someone who lives under a dictatorship, i can understand Cersei's reign not ending in 3 days. We'll probably see actual unrest against her next season since winter came to KL

But why then (other than #plot)? 

When she destroyed the Sept, she literally ended some lines in not so small houses. As well as killed the loved queen, the high sparrow and lots of innocents just there for a show. 

Sure, it can be seen as a happy little accident, but people would speculate. Adding to that, Tywin dying was big cause he kept their house strong. He kept the image that the lannisters were not to be trifled with. And now it's just Cersei and Jaime.

And more to add, she is openly sleeping with her brother who people already frowned upon when it was rumored in the past. Thus giving truth to Stannis' claims. 

And let's assume that the lannister forces were enough to keep rest. Not anymore. Not after losing most of them as well as many reach soldiers and pretty much losing House Tarly. And losing your castle is a bad look as shown in the show. 

Not even getting into how deeply she was in depth, (and ignoring why the Iron bank decided to have a sit down after she ignored them and said she wasn't paying) she should have been dead and gone before the season even began. 

I know she is there cause Leena Heady. I got that. In this world it makes sense. Contracts and star power. Bit in universe she should at a minimum be holding up in the red keep as riots ravage the streets. But otherwise she should be dead in no less than 3 different ways. 

 

1. Faceless men from the Iron Bank 

2. Some new lord who will pay the debt getting backed (like Stannis I'm books) 

3. Some lord who is tired of her false rule mustering an army to usurp her. 

4. The citizens who are already starving and never liked her much anyway dragging her in the streets and killing her. 

5. Littlefinger actually doing what he does best and getting revenge on her for that "power is power" line via manipulation and the vales strength. 

6. Or Daeny just burning the red keep 

7. Or using unsullied to do their (fourth?) infiltration via use of varys' knowledge of passages. I mean, she's done it once and again at caster ly rock. They have experience. And she could even sweeten the deal by tossing food over the walls to feed the people to gain their support. 

 

Any way you slice it, Cersei should not have been queen for longer than a month at best. 

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17 minutes ago, MrJay said:

But why then (other than #plot)? 

When she destroyed the Sept, she literally ended some lines in not so small houses. As well as killed the loved queen, the high sparrow and lots of innocents just there for a show. 

Sure, it can be seen as a happy little accident, but people would speculate. Adding to that, Tywin dying was big cause he kept their house strong. He kept the image that the lannisters were not to be trifled with. And now it's just Cersei and Jaime.

And more to add, she is openly sleeping with her brother who people already frowned upon when it was rumored in the past. Thus giving truth to Stannis' claims. 

And let's assume that the lannister forces were enough to keep rest. Not anymore. Not after losing most of them as well as many reach soldiers and pretty much losing House Tarly. And losing your castle is a bad look as shown in the show. 

Not even getting into how deeply she was in depth, (and ignoring why the Iron bank decided to have a sit down after she ignored them and said she wasn't paying) she should have been dead and gone before the season even began. 

I know she is there cause Leena Heady. I got that. In this world it makes sense. Contracts and star power. Bit in universe she should at a minimum be holding up in the red keep as riots ravage the streets. But otherwise she should be dead in no less than 3 different ways. 

 

1. Faceless men from the Iron Bank 

2. Some new lord who will pay the debt getting backed (like Stannis I'm books) 

3. Some lord who is tired of her false rule mustering an army to usurp her. 

4. The citizens who are already starving and never liked her much anyway dragging her in the streets and killing her. 

5. Littlefinger actually doing what he does best and getting revenge on her for that "power is power" line via manipulation and the vales strength. 

6. Or Daeny just burning the red keep 

7. Or using unsullied to do their (fourth?) infiltration via use of varys' knowledge of passages. I mean, she's done it once and again at caster ly rock. They have experience. And she could even sweeten the deal by tossing food over the walls to feed the people to gain their support. 

 

Any way you slice it, Cersei should not have been queen for longer than a month at best. 

I wish Dany had just flown in burned down the red keep and said capital is now at Dragonstone people hop on a boat and come visit. And your absolutely right. Tyrion should have propsoed a plan to inflitrate via the tunnels. They kept Cersei on the throne by turning Tyrion into the biggest idiot and basically validating Tywin's low opinion of him. Dany needs to call him "an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust, and low cunning"

But there not being riots does make sense. There are lots of historical examples of regimes forefully putting down insurgencies and the people don't riot. We had a few examples during the Cold War in the Eastern Bloc.

Effectively that is what Cersei did. There was an insurection lead by religious fanatics who had terrorized the city, destroyed all the booze and closed up all the brothels. She viciously wiped them out through the use of wild fire. Those who were more religious and supported the Sparrows are probably cowed in fear and those that like to drink, visit brothels and not go to church are probably secretly relieved that Cersei elminated the Sparrows and brought the fun back to King's Landing. 

And most people don't even suspect her of arming the Sparrows in the first place given the walk of shame. 

Edited by jcmontea

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9 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Characters now either band together and unite against something which threatens to destroy the world, requiring them to work and fight together despite their differences -> natural progression towards good and white, or characters ignore the larger threat, only think of themselves and even considers stabbing those willing to sacrifice themselves to protect the world in the back -> natural progression towards evil and black.

If certain people doesn't want to forgive everything, and unite forces with their enemies, for the sake of greater good, it doesn't make them black. Also if certain people are more willing to temporarely forget their differences and squabbles, and join forces against common enemy, it doesn't make them white.

Probably we just have a different opinion about definition what being black or white means. I see plenty of grey characters in GOT, furthermore in my opinion lately those that were lighter before, now became darker than they were - Arya, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Dany. And Cersei didn't changed much. 

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Probably we just have a different opinion about definition what being black or white means. I see plenty of grey characters in GOT, furthermore in my opinion lately those that were lighter before, now became darker than they were - Arya, Bran, Sansa, Tyrion, Dany. And Cersei didn't changed much. 

You both should try color TV. ;) 

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"The basic canon of fantasy, of course, is: you get to make up the rules, but then you've got to follow them."

Usula K. Le Guin.

The quote is from a paper entitled "Escape Routes," written back in the 1970s. Ms. Le Guin, as usual, put things very well. Unfortunately, HBO's Game of Thrones has done horrible violence to the basic canon. 

In the beginning, we had an interesting quasi medieval society. It had the sorts of rules and values one would expect in such a world. In Season 7, the whole thing turns into a ridiculous mishmash, with characters, both high-born and low-born, acting absurdly out of character. People not only forget or ignore their values, they often act directly against their self interest. Also, several main players seem to have occupied the off season by overdosing on some kind of "stupid pills." Their IQ has dropped about 60 or 70 points. This is particularly true of anti-Cersei characters like Varys and Tyrion. As many posters on different threads have noted, the heavy hand of the writers can't be missed here. At the end of Season 6, they had dug themselves into a hole. The war did not look like it could last even half an episode, and this would deprive the show of one of its best actresses. Thus, the writers needed to find a plausible way out of the hole, and they failed badly in Season 7. 

The OP details some relevant problems, and MrJay's post has some worthwhile things to say about the problems. I'll add a few thoughts of my own:

 

Murdering the High Septon and members of the nobility

The situation is worse than can be accounted for by noting that those murdered would have friends and family. The Faith is one of the pillars of the Seven Kingdoms. There are devoted septons, septas, and laity throughout the kingdoms.  A poster on another thread asked what the reaction would be in a society of devout Catholics if someone blew up the Vatican. Good question. And what if we had a pretender to the throne who did this and then also installed a creepy guy from the Church of Scientology as her main adviser? There are lots of people in KL who would be willing to stab guards in the back and open a gate to anti-Lannister forces. Hell, most of the guards would probably be willing to open the gates, especially if bribed for doing so. Any competent spy master would be aware of this. However, the thought does not occur to the low IQ individual formerly known as the Spider.     

 

 

The lords’ supposed belief that a ballista could kill three dragons  

Even if you don’t believe that problems of honor and legitimacy would doom the Lannister “queen,” I don’t see how you can deny insurmountable practical problems. Daenerys has three dragons. The men of the Reach have the word of Lord Creep of the Torture Chamber that the crown is working on the matter. Why would the worst idiot in Westeros be assured by this? Even idiots might be able to count. The  Lannister/Reach forces wind up marching across open country with one, exactly one, anti-dragon weapon. The leaders of this expedition have somehow forgotten about the Field of Fire. They are also unaware of the fact that three is greater than one. 

 

Food riots, starvation, etc. 

Residents of Kings Landing would be worried about food shortages. They wouldn’t be the only ones. Many times in the more legitimate scenes of GoT, we hear, or hear of, lords and knights who want to return home and attend to their people and their fields. There would also be castellans who see the approach of bad weather and know that the walls and roofs of their castles and holdfasts are in bad shape. Wealth, status, and power in this society comes from the land, not from the capital city. It is absurd to suppose that an army of drones loyal to Borg Queen Brotherfucker could get away with despoiling the land, hauling everything to the capital, and leaving the peasants to starve. Indeed, there wouldn’t be any drones. They belong in another universe. Most of the troops in any Westerosi army would be farm boys and village lads. The peasants being robbed would be their own people.

 

GoT still has some virtues. The quality of the writing, however, has declined sharply over time. As a fan of quality fantasy, I find this unfortunate.  

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The reasons IMO that things happened the way they did are: 1. Lena Headley; 2. need for a credible human adversary. Although unfortunately they didn't quite succeed as far as the "credible" part is concerned.

A couple of things they could have done to make Cersei's threat more credible:

1. Use Euron's fleet to blockade Dragonstone. But even there, how does one blockade /dragons/?

2.Perhaps send someone to capture a hostage and thus gain leverage.

One thing I can't get past is how blowing up the sept is no big deal. Does anyone other than Hot Pie even allude to it?

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