Banner Without Brothers

Who is the dumbest POV character?

168 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Arienne seemed to me as a hothead teenager who wants everything to be her way and who always thinks she is right. A pretty typical case of youthful maximalism which obviously doesn't make her any smart but not inherently stupid either. This usually passes with age and experience.

Edited by Dofs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Arienne seemed to me as a hothead teenager ...

I agree. Her father still thinks she has lots of potential, and is having her learn cyvasse. Having filled her in on the background history, he's entrusted her as ambassador to young "Aegon", to learn further on the job. Who wasn't kind of stupid in their teens?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arianne is a teenager? I could have sworn she was in her early twenties. If I'm wrong about her age I'll have to rethink. Also makes her scenes with Arys way more creepy. I'm pretty sure she's older though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Arianne is a teenager? I could have sworn she was in her early twenties. If I'm wrong about her age I'll have to rethink. Also makes her scenes with Arys way more creepy. I'm pretty sure she's older though.

She's 24 in AFFC, which takes place in 300 AC. 

For me, it has to be Catelyn. Trusting Littlefinger's statements about the knife caused a mountain of trouble (pun intended). 

Sansa's up there in AGOT. Justified because she's 11-12, but her interactions with Joffrey kept making me think of Anna and Hans in Frozen. 

 

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

She's 24 in AFFC, which takes place in 300 AC. 

Ewwww. Of course you're right. Okay - at best, Arianne is continuing to act like a teenager. She seems to have had a pretty easy, uncomplicated life and gotten her way maybe more than is helpful, and never seems to have had any adult responsibilities, like running a household or raising children. If Arianne can turn herself around (and I hope she does), we can maybe take her out of the "stupid" category, before she goes the "full Cersei".

I'm still of the opinion that Victarion is the dumbest. (Not to be confused with the "mutes" of his brother's crew ;-)

... Okay, that triggered a thought. The "dusky woman" that Euron gave Victarion to serve his manly and other needs was also a mute. Victarion tells her everything. She sees everything. Does she know how to write? Might she be sending periodic messages back to the Crow's Eye, perhaps when the ship is in port? We know she's got to be "poisoned", like all of Euron's gifts - which Victarion knows, but he fully accepts and trusts her nonetheless. The dusky woman may be dumb, but Vic's really stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Ewwww. Of course you're right. Okay - at best, Arianne is continuing to act like a teenager. She seems to have had a pretty easy, uncomplicated life and gotten her way maybe more than is helpful, and never seems to have had any adult responsibilities, like running a household or raising children. If Arianne can turn herself around (and I hope she does), we can maybe take her out of the "stupid" category, before she goes the "full Cersei".

I'm still of the opinion that Victarion is the dumbest. (Not to be confused with the "mutes" of his brother's crew ;-)

... Okay, that triggered a thought. The "dusky woman" that Euron gave Victarion to serve his manly and other needs was also a mute. Victarion tells her everything. She sees everything. Does she know how to write? Might she be sending periodic messages back to the Crow's Eye, perhaps when the ship is in port? We know she's got to be "poisoned", like all of Euron's gifts - which Victarion knows, but he fully accepts and trusts her nonetheless. The dusky woman may be dumb, but Vic's really stupid.

Doran can be blamed for that. He was saving her up for Viserys, even though there were several options available, i.e. Edmure Tully and Willas Tyrell. And Viserys wasn't a good prospect given how much of a psycho he was. Also, having Arianne marry Willas could heal some of the wounds over Willas's mishap with Oberyn. Giving her to Edmure could tie the Martells back to the rest of the realm. Speaking of which, I'm surprised that the marriage-happy Hoster wasn't looking for a possible wife for Edmure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Yeah, my bad, Arianne is not a teenager but a young adult who was in her teens not so long ago. Still, she had a sheltered life and never really had any responsibility for anything so she still has a teenage mindset and hence my description about her still stands. A mission to Aegon is likely the first time in her life she was tasked with such a serious matter.

Now that I think about it, Doran keeping her in Sunspear with nothing to do till she is 24 is probably one of the main reasons for Arianne's rebellious behavior. 

Edited by Dofs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the first name that came to mind when I read the title was Victarion..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the community here so in love with Danny that the wrecking ball of Slaver's Bay is not even mentionned?

Like, this old lady who was about to get raped after we enslaved and slaughtered her people should heal my husband. This other old lady very reminiscent of the first and enmeshed in the society I destroyed is most likely very trustworthy too right? Like, she can't be part of the harpy consipirators, she's so nice! 

Cersei's and Danny's thought process is so similar as to be comical, no?

Get out of her POV when you read it and try and see her actions and thought process in the reality she is living. Oh, she is beautiful, has dragons, is conniving, burns people and I love her for all that, but she is a DUMBASS. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Spilledguts said:

Is the community here so in love with Danny that the wrecking ball of Slaver's Bay is not even mentionned?

Like, this old lady who was about to get raped after we enslaved and slaughtered her people should heal my husband. This other old lady very reminiscent of the first and enmeshed in the society I destroyed is most likely very trustworthy too right? Like, she can't be part of the harpy consipirators, she's so nice! 

Cersei's and Danny's thought process is so similar as to be comical, no?

Get out of her POV when you read it and try and see her actions and thought process in the reality she is living. Oh, she is beautiful, has dragons, is conniving, burns people and I love her for all that, but she is a DUMBASS. 

Also when a boy told Dany that former slaves killed their father and raped and murdered their mother, Dany does nothing and tells the boy to gtfo.

Goddamnt it 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

Also when a boy told Dany that former slaves killed their father and raped and murdered their mother, Dany does nothing and tells the boy to gtfo.

Well, admittedly, the boy's father was a big slaver and slave owner. The former slaves saved Daenerys from having to nail the guy up in the town square. That his son was still alive to gripe about it was something the kid should have felt some gratitude over.

You don't mention how Dany actually learns from her mistakes, unlike Cersei. I'm hoping she learns that Meereen - and Essos - with their culture of blood sports and slavery are too alien and too entrenched, and it's time to go home to Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Spilledguts said:

Is the community here so in love with Danny that the wrecking ball of Slaver's Bay is not even mentionned?

Like, this old lady who was about to get raped after we enslaved and slaughtered her people should heal my husband. This other old lady very reminiscent of the first and enmeshed in the society I destroyed is most likely very trustworthy too right? Like, she can't be part of the harpy consipirators, she's so nice! 

Cersei's and Danny's thought process is so similar as to be comical, no?

Get out of her POV when you read it and try and see her actions and thought process in the reality she is living. Oh, she is beautiful, has dragons, is conniving, burns people and I love her for all that, but she is a DUMBASS. 

I don't like Daenerys that much in the books for her irrational hatred for Ned Stark, who spoke out against the murders of her niece and nephew and tried to stop the attempt on her life back in AGOT. Plus, he had the best reasons for rebelling: his sister got abducted by Daenerys' brother Rhaegar, her father Aerys had Ned's father and brother executed, and then called for Ned's own head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, admittedly, the boy's father was a big slaver and slave owner. The former slaves saved Daenerys from having to nail the guy up in the town square. That his son was still alive to gripe about it was something the kid should have felt some gratitude over.

You don't mention how Dany actually learns from her mistakes, unlike Cersei. I'm hoping she learns that Meereen - and Essos - with their culture of blood sports and slavery are too alien and too entrenched, and it's time to go home to Westeros.

So it's okay that the boy's mother was raped????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

So it's okay that the boy's mother was raped????

Well, we really don't know if the mother was complicit in abusing her slaves, or if she was totally innocent. We and Dany aren't given any of that information. In our world, it would be imperative to conduct a criminal investigation, compile all the evidence, yada yada. But that wasn't Meereen, and a guerrilla resistance was going on. I'm not going to fault Dany for lack of sympathy, under the circumstances.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I don't like Daenerys that much in the books for her irrational hatred for Ned Stark,

I've been assuming that she isn't privy to the internal details of the Small Council meetings at King's Landing. Most of what she knows is through Viserys's eyes, and appears to be old, old information. At this point, so what if she hates Ned? He's still dead.

Edited by zandru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, we really don't know if the mother was complicit in abusing her slaves, or if she was totally innocent. We and Dany aren't given any of that information. In our world, it would be imperative to conduct a criminal investigation, compile all the evidence, yada yada. But that wasn't Meereen, and a guerrilla resistance was going on. I'm not going to fault Dany for lack of sympathy, under the circumstances

So you're okay with rape if it happens during a guerilla resistance, got it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Speaking of which, I'm surprised that the marriage-happy Hoster wasn't looking for a possible wife for Edmure.

He was, he actually made a formal offer for Arianne to marry Edmure which was noted by Arianne herself in Feast when Doran tells her about the plot to marry her to Viserys. She actually welcomed this overture but like all other offers Doran refused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

So you're okay with rape if it happens during a guerilla resistance, got it

Let's not be dramatic. I'm sure Zandru isn't ok with rape ever. He/she is merely saying he isn't going to fault Dany for her lack of sympathy. More specifically: Dany isn't stupid for that decision, at least in Zandru's eyes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Let's not be dramatic. I'm sure Zandru isn't ok with rape ever. He/she is merely saying he isn't going to fault Dany for her lack of sympathy. More specifically: Dany isn't stupid for that decision, at least in Zandru's eyes. 

If the slaves did in fact rape the woman, for that crime I would put them in prison at least. I won't let them go free

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Falcon2909 said:

If the slaves did in fact rape the woman, for that crime I would put them in prison at least. I won't let them go free

I understand that but that doesn't mean Zandru is "ok with rape" in any situation. If you feel that decision makes Dany stupid then that is your opinion & that's fine. Zandru disagreed which is also fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

So you're okay with rape if it happens during a guerilla resistance, got it.

Nonsense. I know it's fun to play the devil's advocate, but...

Getting back to Daenerys and her decision, we in fact don't even know that a rape took place. A kid who's too overwrought to keep his tokar on makes that assertion. If you want justice and punishment, the whole 9 yards, there would have to be an investigation. Speaking with the alleged perps. Finding any witnesses. Then, having collected actual facts, not just one minor's allegations, a decision could be made.

You want me to fault Dany for not following 20th c police and judicial procedures. Anachronistic. This is ancient Essos.

Another possible factor is, if the boy's mother was in fact raped, perhaps she, too was guilty of abusing her slaves. Not just hubby. We don't know that, either. Might the slaves have actually protected her, if she'd been sweet and kind to them? Could be. Who knows? Certainly not the reader, nor Daenerys.

Finally, given the state of government in Meereen following the conquest, there was little political capital to be gained by showing apparent favoritism to slavers and their families. Dany's decision wasn't stupid, given the circumstances.

Thanks to Lyanna<3Rhaegar for putting in a good word for me!!

Edited by zandru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now