What determines a houses levy?

[Frey Kings]

Seems like if it was based on population, the houses in The Reach would surpass all others by a large margain 

[Canon Claude]

1 hour ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Seems like if it was based on population, the houses in The Reach would surpass all others by a large margain 

Well, they do, so you’re on the mark.

[Adam Yozza]

Population, money, ability to feed said army so fertility of the land as well. Also the Lords own personal choice; he decides how many he raises and as such can decide to send only a fraction of their strength (case in point, Barbrey Dustin).

[Frey Kings]

2 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Well, they do, so you’re on the mark.

Then a follow up, Why arent they feared as much?

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Freys Injustice said:

Then a follow up, Why arent they feared as much?

Because the LP family is not as respected as it could be. If your strongest vassal supports both sides in a civil war, there's not much else to say.

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Well, they do, so you’re on the mark.

They don't actually. There is no indication that the average Reach House is more powerful than the average Riverland, Westerland or Northern House. House Florent from the Reach has a strength of 2000, for example.

What we do know is that the Reach as a whole can raise a larger host than any other region. But the Reach also has more Houses than any other region. Meaning there is no need for a House from the Reach to be more powerful than a House from another region. There are simply more of them.

EDIT

To elaborate. Let's say the average House strength is 2000 and use House Florent as an example of the average House. That would mean that the Reach should have around 50 Houses averaging 2000 men each, to raise their 100,000 strong potential.

Similarly, the West would have around 25 Houses to raise their presumed 50,000 men. If we take the North, and assume the 2000 average, then we have the following main Houses:

1. Mormont

2. Umber

3. Karstark

4. Bolton

5. Hornwood

6. Cerwyn

7. Stark

8. Flint of Widow's Watch

9. Locke

10. Slate

11. Manderly

12. Dustin

13. Ryswell

14. Glover

15. Tallhart

16. Reed

17. Flint of Flint's Finger

Then there are two additional regions that add to their potential, which aren't ruled by single lords, but rather by clans. These are

18. Mountain Clans

19. Skagos

I am also not 100% sure if this covers all of their primary Houses, or whether there are other Houses sworn directly to Winterfell that have not been mentioned yet. For example, do we know who rules Ramsgate and whether they are a primary vassal House to Winterfell, or whether they are already sworn to House Manderly?.

Anyway, the above, using the 2000 average, brings us to a strength for the North of around 38,000, without including any additional Houses we may not know about yet. Of course, this assumes that 2000 is indeed the correct average. And yes, I'm sure this average will vary somewhat from region to region, but it will not be tied to the overall strength of the region. Meaning the average might as well be lower in the Reach, but with a lot more Houses, or it may be higher in the Westerlands, or Riverlands etc. The point is, the average House strength should not necessarily increase as the overall potential of a region increases. Maybe some regions have fewer but stronger Houses, while others have more numerous, but weaker Houses. It will vary on a region by region basis depending on a lot more factors than just overall strength of the region.

[The Drunkard]

4 hours ago, Freys Injustice said:

Then a follow up, Why arent they feared as much?

Because of Mace Tyrell. He's never done anything particularly noteworthy or demonstrated much competence or ruthlessness. If the Reach was led by someone like Tywin, who was ruthless, an accomplished commander and in complete control of his vassals, things would be different. 

[Adam Yozza]

@Free Northman Reborn

Yes, the average Reach house is not more powerful than the average house from most other regions. But as you say; there are a lot more houses in the Reach than any other region. If the population of the Reach was divided between 18 major families, like the North is, instead of the 32 they currently have then the average Reach house would end up more powerful than the average Northern house (in terms of levies at least).

So yes population does affect the size of a house's levies and the Reach's high population means they can raise a lot more men than any other region (or even any other two regions combined). They've just divided their population between more bannermen than other regions.

[Free Northman Reborn]

13 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Yes, the average Reach house is not more powerful than the average house from most other regions. But as you say; there are a lot more houses in the Reach than any other region. If the population of the Reach was divided between 18 major families, like the North is, instead of the 32 they currently have then the average Reach house would end up more powerful than the average Northern house (in terms of levies at least).

So yes population does affect the size of a house's levies and the Reach's high population means they can raise a lot more men than any other region (or even any other two regions combined). They've just divided their population between more bannermen than other regions.

Yes. Importantly too, we haven't been informed as to the full number of Houses in each kingdom yet. The known Reach Houses, for example, are not necessarily all of the Reach Houses. The Houses listed in glossaries and such are also not the complete list.

There are some non-canon references to lots of additional Houses, but we don't know what levels they are on, or even whether they are the full lists. I believe that it has been confirmed that there are a lot of Houses we have not heard of yet.

I think the North is probably closest in terms of having revealed a full list of primary Houses sworn to the House Paramount. Simply because we can map their lands out geographically, showing us that most of the Northern map is covered. But there might still be a few primary Houses we just don't know about yet. For example, the list of castles formerly ruled by now extinguished Houses like the Foresters and a bunch of others. Are they now part of the domains of other lords, or are there current primary lords still ruling them on behalf of the Starks?

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On major houses

The only house we know the exact strength of is Florents with 2000 men. Since Garlan becomes a great lord himself once he is granted brightwater 2000 men is apparently more than enough to make you a great lord.

Also about the Reach we know these; Hightowers could easily command more than ten thousand men (Dance of Dragons) And Oldtown alone is guarded by thousands of men according to Sam. According to Lord Tarly Hightowers command three times as many men as the other lords of the Reach (presumably the great lords) so Florents would really be on the lower end of the great lord scale.

Hightowers also command several lords with a good power base of their own. Same likely applies for Rowans WHO control the Northernmarches which historicaly included Oakheart and Crane territory.

Another example from another region is Vale, six Lord declarants command twenty thousand men. nearing 3500 on average. Royces are the most powerful and have vassals all over the vale so even if we set them as 5k, near twice as the others, each of the others would have 3k on their own.

 

Then we also have the Freys, who start with (besides 1000 horseman) 3000 levy properly equipped then raise another 2000 of lower quality.

Edmure and his other lords, after their initial defeats and major losses, are still able to get a 8000 levy and this is after Gregors "travels" in Riverlands. So at least in the southern regions equipment becomes a problem before.

Another thing of note, though I can't find a quote now, it is said Freys are disliked by many older and more powerful(but not richer) houses. So even in Riverlands there must be more powerful houses. Vance,  whoever holds Harrenhal, the major towns of Stoney Sept, Fairmarket   are the likely candidates with also Darrys before RR. Mootons are also a possible candidate in riches if not population.

 

One thing though, at what number would you really be a great lord? Cranes and Oakhearts must surely have fewer men than Florents, right? Since they are the vassals of a vassal of an already huge area. Reach already has one small kingdom within their kingdom how wise it is to have a second one?

 

In the end how much you can levy would be based on two things land for population and money for equipment and heavy horse. Freys and Renly are the foremost evidence that lords try to attain a certain horse to foot ratio even if they could raise more; Renly only has 10k heavy horse for near 60k foot and Freys only raised near 3000 for their 1000 knights even though they could raise more.

[Free Northman Reborn]

29 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

On major houses

The only house we know the exact strength of is Florents with 2000 men. Since Garlan becomes a great lord himself once he is granted brightwater 2000 men is apparently more than enough to make you a great lord.

Also about the Reach we know these; Hightowers could easily command more than ten thousand men (Dance of Dragons) And Oldtown alone is guarded by thousands of men according to Sam. According to Lord Tarly Hightowers command three times as many men as the other lords of the Reach (presumably the great lords) so Florents would really be on the lower end of the great lord scale.

Hightowers also command several lords with a good power base of their own. Same likely applies for Rowans WHO control the Northernmarches which historicaly included Oakheart and Crane territory.

Another example from another region is Vale, six Lord declarants command twenty thousand men. nearing 3500 on average. Royces are the most powerful and have vassals all over the vale so even if we set them as 5k, near twice as the others, each of the others would have 3k on their own.

 

Then we also have the Freys, who start with (besides 1000 horseman) 3000 levy properly equipped then raise another 2000 of lower quality.

Edmure and his other lords, after their initial defeats and major losses, are still able to get a 8000 levy and this is after Gregors "travels" in Riverlands. So at least in the southern regions equipment becomes a problem before.

Another thing of note, though I can't find a quote now, it is said Freys are disliked by many older and more powerful(but not richer) houses. So even in Riverlands there must be more powerful houses. Vance,  whoever holds Harrenhal, the major towns of Stoney Sept, Fairmarket   are the likely candidates with also Darrys before RR. Mootons are also a possible candidate in riches if not population.

 

One thing though, at what number would you really be a great lord? Cranes and Oakhearts must surely have fewer men than Florents, right? Since they are the vassals of a vassal of an already huge area. Reach already has one small kingdom within their kingdom how wise it is to have a second one?

The Freys are stated to be the most powerful vassal of the Tullys.

Catelyn in SoS: "House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen"

They are also among the wealthiest. The other lords look down on them due to their relative youth as a House, and lack of historical legitimacy and lineage. They are only 600 years old, and started as petty lords who raised a wooden bridge over the river.

As for the Hightowers, they can field three times the amount of men of the next most powerful Reach lord. Not three times that of the average Reach lord. So if they can raise say 12,000 men, then the 2nd most powerful Reach lord can raise 4,000, based on that statement. That would likely be the Redwynes.  The average Reach lord would be quite a bit lower than that. I still think that the Florents are an average strength House, but we don't have enough information to be sure. 

[Corvo the Crow]

36 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Freys are stated to be the most powerful vassal of the Tullys.

Catelyn in SoS: "House Frey might have abandoned the King in the North, but the Lord of the Crossing remained the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen"

They are also among the wealthiest. The other lords look down on them due to their relative youth as a House, and lack of historical legitimacy and lineage. They are only 600 years old, and started as petty lords who raised a wooden bridge over the river.

As for the Hightowers, they can field three times the amount of men of the next most powerful Reach lord. Not three times that of the average Reach lord. So if they can raise say 12,000 men, then the 2nd most powerful Reach lord can raise 4,000, based on that statement. That would likely be the Redwynes.  The average Reach lord would be quite a bit lower than that. I still think that the Florents are an average strength House, but we don't have enough information to be sure. 

 

You are right on Freys

Quote

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure." She inclined her head toward her brother as he rejoined them.

"Your Grace," Brynden Blackfish said, "perhaps we had best continue this in private."

It always surprised me they became such a power in 600 years; they aren't even on a much viable trade route even if the North has no port towns on the western coast which I suspect they do or else what is an Asshai ship doing in the Frozen Shore in the first place?

 

Quote

"What is Lord Hightower doing?" Sam blurted. "My father always said he was as wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of Highgarden's other bannermen."

This is on Hightowers. Also Rowans are likely the second most powerful bannermen and I doubt they have as few as four thousand. They command a huge area on the northernmarches of the Reach, the most populous and fertile region and they command only as many men as Freys?

[Free Northman Reborn]

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

You are right on Freys

It always surprised me they became such a power in 600 years; they aren't even on a much viable trade route even if the North has no port towns on the western coast which I suspect they do or else what is an Asshai ship doing in the Frozen Shore in the first place?

 

This is on Hightowers. Also Rowans are likely the second most powerful bannermen and I doubt they have as few as four thousand. They command a huge area on the northernmarches of the Reach, the most populous and fertile region and they command only as many men as Freys?

Yeah, we don't know, I guess. I would say that 4000 is very powerful, and may be twice the strength of the average House in Westeros. The Freys appear to have a strength between 4000-5000, depending on one's interpretation of their various hosts raised. I agree that the Rowans must be very powerful. But so are the Redwynes, with their 200 warships.

Personally I think there are many Houses that can raise in the region of 1000 men only. With 2000 being quite impressive, and 3000 being upper tier. 4000 would then be amongst the most powerful Houses in the Realm. With 5000 and up being exceptional. 

[direpupy]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is on Hightowers. Also Rowans are likely the second most powerful bannermen and I doubt they have as few as four thousand. They command a huge area on the northernmarches of the Reach, the most populous and fertile region and they command only as many men as Freys?

 

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Hightowers also command several lords with a good power base of their own. Same likely applies for Rowans WHO control the Northernmarches which historicaly included Oakheart and Crane territory.

One thing though, at what number would you really be a great lord? Cranes and Oakhearts must surely have fewer men than Florents, right? Since they are the vassals of a vassal of an already huge area. Reach already has one small kingdom within their kingdom how wise it is to have a second one?

Corvo where did you get the idea that the Cranes and the Oakhearts are sworn to the Rowans, because they are not, they are principal (or great) houses themselves. The North-Western part of the Reach is actually divided between the three of them, ever since they carved up the lands of house Osgrey. And they where already powerful and storied houses before that.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Regarding the Reach, House Hightower is very powerful and they control OldTown. They seem to be also sort of, staying out of the events thus far but that is about to change. They have numbers yet to be converted to assets.

[Corvo the Crow]

22 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, we don't know, I guess. I would say that 4000 is very powerful, and may be twice the strength of the average House in Westeros. The Freys appear to have a strength between 4000-5000, depending on one's interpretation of their various hosts raised. I agree that the Rowans must be very powerful. But so are the Redwynes, with their 200 warships.

Personally I think there are many Houses that can raise in the region of 1000 men only. With 2000 being quite impressive, and 3000 being upper tier. 4000 would then be amongst the most powerful Houses in the Realm. With 5000 and up being exceptional. 

Speaking of Reach I think 4000 could very well be the average with all the lords we don't know of; Hightowers have over 10K (perhaps as much as 15K but I don't think) Rowans would surely have more than 4-5k of Freys on a much larger and fertile area but there could be many great(er) houses within Reach  having around 1-2k or less so the average would be around that even though top two is actually a lot more powerful than three times.

Field of Fire is a good source on what the numbers of lords are, I believe. There was 55000 men for near 600 lords. Of course this was not their full strength but it makes around a hundred men per lord. I think in this context lord possibly means both lords, whether great or small and landed knights. Makes some sense since Osgreys only had a score petty lords and a hundred landed knights in such a large area. Similar example for Manderlys, they have this huge area, which is also in a better climate compared to most of the North, and have only 100 landed knights and a dozen petty lords.

With the above taken into consideration 100 men average per land holder makes some sense as it includes both those like cleganes who have a single village and Hightower who have several big lords under their wings.

I don't think it is a good idea to compare Redwynes with mainland lords. Their islands are fertile and certainly populous but they don't seem to have a comparable land force besides the obvious guards they'll have. A better comparison would be Dragonstone; it has all these ships but Aegon set out with fewer than 1500 men and this includes two small mainland houses.

Arbor would be a more populous and richer Dragonstone, therefore having a bigger navy but again not much of an army.

 

Finally, they have no interest in becoming a mainland house either; they didn't ask for land, which would obviously be in the mainland, but adjustment to wine taxes for thirty years.

[Corvo the Crow]

38 minutes ago, direpupy said:

 

Corvo where did you get the idea that the Cranes and the Oakhearts are sworn to the Rowans, because they are not, they are principal (or great) houses themselves. The North-Western part of the Reach is actually divided between the three of them, ever since they carved up the lands of house Osgrey. And they where already powerful and storied houses before that.

They may be independent now, they weren't before though. Also there are several houses that later get sworn to other houses; Freys started out as petty lords so all their vassals are an example, those northern lords under Manderlys, who only had the mouth of the White Knife at start, Tolletts an Andal house that fought against Royces now being vassals are several examples. There are also examples of the opposite; Current Hornwood territory actually belonged to Bolton Kings so they may have been vassals who have become greater lords themselves.

 

Quote

The Sworn Sword

"Yet it happened that while King Gyles was away, the King of the Rock saw his chance to tear a bite out of the Reach, so he gathered up a host of westermen and came down upon us. The Osgreys were the Marshalls of the Northmarch, so it fell to the Little Lion to meet them. It was the fourth King Lancel who led the Lannisters, it seems to me, or mayhaps the fifth. Ser Wilbert blocked King Lancel's path, and bid him halt. 'Come no farther,' he said. 'You are not wanted here. I forbid you to set foot upon the Reach.' But the Lannister ordered all his banners forward.

"They fought for half a day, the gold lion and the chequy. The Lannister was armed with a Valyrian sword that no common steel can match, so the Little Lion was hard pressed, his shield in ruins. In the end, bleeding from a dozen grievous wounds with his own blade broken in his hand, he threw himself headlong at his foe. King Lancel cut him near in half, the singers say, but as he died the Little Lion found the gap in the king's armor beneath his arm, and plunged his dagger home. When their king died, the westermen turned back, and the Reach was saved." The old man stroked the broken shield as tenderly as if it had been a child.

 

 

"We had to go all the way to Dosk to find some wine," Dunk told him. "The krakens raided Little Dosk. They carried off the wealth and women and burned half of what they did not take."

 

The first Lancel Lannister (known, of course, as Lancel the Lion) rode to war against the Gardener kings of Highgarden and conquered the Reach as far south as Old Oak before being felled in battle. (His son, Loreon III, lost all his father had gained and earned the mocking name Loreon the Limp). King Gerold Lannister, known as Gerold the Great, sailed to the Iron Islands and returned with a hundred ironborn hostages, promising to hang one every time the ironmen dared raid his shores. (True to his word, Gerold hanged more than twenty of the hostages). Lancel IV is said to have beheaded the ironborn king Harrald Halfdrowned and his heir with a single stroke of the Valyrian steel greatsword Brightroar at the Battle of Lann's Point; he later died in battle at Red Lake whilst attempting to invade the Reach.

 

Cranes of Red Lake were certainly bannermen to Osgreys and since their territory extended to the sea and Old Oak being close to the Westerlands, it is very likely Osgreys had their allegiance also.

 

Also compare them to Mullendores for example, bannermen to Hightowers but also lords of power themselves or Beesburys, also Hightower bannermen but descended from Garth like the other two.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Speaking of Reach I think 4000 could very well be the average with all the lords we don't know of; Hightowers have over 10K (perhaps as much as 15K but I don't think) Rowans would surely have more than 4-5k of Freys on a much larger and fertile area but there could be many great(er) houses within Reach  having around 1-2k or less so the average would be around that even though top two is actually a lot more powerful than three times.

Field of Fire is a good source on what the numbers of lords are, I believe. There was 55000 men for near 600 lords. Of course this was not their full strength but it makes around a hundred men per lord. I think in this context lord possibly means both lords, whether great or small and landed knights. Makes some sense since Osgreys only had a score petty lords and a hundred landed knights in such a large area. Similar example for Manderlys, they have this huge area, which is also in a better climate compared to most of the North, and have only 100 landed knights and a dozen petty lords.

With the above taken into consideration 100 men average per land holder makes some sense as it includes both those like cleganes who have a single village and Hightower who have several big lords under their wings.

I don't think it is a good idea to compare Redwynes with mainland lords. Their islands are fertile and certainly populous but they don't seem to have a comparable land force besides the obvious guards they'll have. A better comparison would be Dragonstone; it has all these ships but Aegon set out with fewer than 1500 men and this includes two small mainland houses.

Arbor would be a more populous and richer Dragonstone, therefore having a bigger navy but again not much of an army.

 

Finally, they have no interest in becoming a mainland house either; they didn't ask for land, which would obviously be in the mainland, but adjustment to wine taxes for thirty years.

Quite simply, if the average Reach House has 4000 men, then it means the Reach only has 25 Houses, since their total strength is around 100k. Somehow I get the impression that they have many more Houses than 25. We don't even know the names of all their Houses yet.

[Corvo the Crow]

59 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Quite simply, if the average Reach House has 4000 men, then it means the Reach only has 25 Houses, since their total strength is around 100k. Somehow I get the impression that they have many more Houses than 25. We don't even know the names of all their Houses yet.

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant not every single lord who is of some notice because they can raise a few hundred men or sit on an important route but those who come right after the greatest lords like Hightower and Rowan.

So not the entire strength of the Reach but only an average among the houses that reach thousands like say, there are 15 houses that can reach a thousand or two, the most powerful two have a combined strength of 15-20k while the rest provide 40-45k among themselves. most powerful ones can still have 4-5k while the least powerful ones have 1k but altogether the average of these greater lords would be 4000.

Tarlys could possibly fall into this supposed average category as Randyll will know his strength better than he knows most of the other lords.

[Wm Portnoy]

21 hours ago, Freys Injustice said:

Then a follow up, Why arent they feared as much?

They are respected.  Their support kept the Lannisters on the throne.