redriver

Lady Stoneheart-looking ahead.

43 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, shameeka said:

Except she heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." in RW. She will very much likely believe that Jaim had a hand in it. How will he proove otherwise?

 

I think the only way Jaime can come out of this alive is to kill her or not meet her at all.

 

BwB is already changed when they began executing Freys without trial.

You are correct, Roose's line is absolutely the sticking point. We'll see i suppose, but iirc Bri was there during that conversation with Jaime and Roose.

The Freys openly admit to murdering tens of thousands of people in violation of guest right. There is a pretty hard line between that and 'did you keep your word?' 'Yes.' 'I don't believe you.'

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1 hour ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

If LSH is in fact a crazed zombie of vengeance then sure she'll kill him, but if she has even a smidge of rational thought left she won't.

Also be interesting to see how the pretty strong moral code Brotherhood members react to an order to kill an "innocent" man....although trying to kill Bri and Pod may be proof that they have gone off the deep end.

Stoneheart did not believe Brienne when she tried to explain; I don’t think she will be inclined to believe Jaime, of all people, on the subject of his good intentions.

And that is actually a lot like Cat, but taken to an extreme. Once she makes a decision, she sticks to it; even when later evidence makes her wonder privately if she could be wrong, as with Tyrion, she puts that thought away, because the implications are unbearable (in that case, that she gave Tywin a cassus belli for nothing, and perhaps that she seriously needs to re-examine what she thinks she knows about Littlefinger and his feelings for her). As LSH, I doubt she even has those private misgivings anymore.

The BWB is different now, too. Bernice may have tried more or less successfully to channel them into the king’s justice, but without him around, they are basically broken men out for payback, and they don’t seem too concerned with actual guilt, or even redeeming qualities (like saving the children from Rorge and Biter). Lem and Jack were not just willing to hang Brienne, Hyle, and Pod, they were eager to and very nasty about it besides.

I agree with @Lollygag - I think Stoneheart is heading towards the end for Baelish.

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42 minutes ago, shameeka said:

Except she heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." in RW. She will very much likely believe that Jaim had a hand in it. How will he proove otherwise?

 

I think the only way Jaime can come out of this alive is to kill her or not meet her at all.

 

BwB is already changed when they began executing Freys without trial.

There's no way LSH will see any reason when it comes to Jaime. She heard Roose Bolton saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", so thinks Jaime had a hand in planning the Red Wedding - he didn't, though he was aware that Roose planned on betraying the Starks. As they were leaving Harrenhall, Roose sends his regards to Jaime's father and Jaime almost quips his regards to Robb. Roose uses this to the utmost effect at the wedding.

Catelyn trusted Hand of the King (acting) Tyrion's word, given in open court, to exchange her daughters - her remaining children besides Robb - and thought Jaime was big enough a prize for them. She wasn't thinking war strategy or politics, she just wanted to save her remaining babies. Tyrion, on the other hand, already knew Arya had disappeared, presumed dead, by the time he made his offer.

Jaime gets back to KL, fully intending to honour his oath to Catelyn. And what does he find? Arya disappeared since Ned's arrest and Sansa married to his brother and now also disappeared. Huh? How exactly is he supposed to honour his oath to Catelyn? As the Lord Commander of Tommen's Kingsguard, he does the best he could think of: send the honourable, skillfull non-knight Brienne to find and protect the last Stark, to honour her as well as his oath. She certainly sees it as honouring his oath.

LSH will not care a whit for all this. She won't care that neither of her daughters were in KL when Jaime finally got there. She'll only see the failure of delivering his oath (something Jaime is also aware of). She remembers Roose's (self-serving) words when he killed Robb.

Jaime is dead if he ever reaches LSH. But I don't think it's his time to die, yet. There's the valonqar thing, and also hints of kingmaking and protecting Rhaegar's children... So it could point to him getting on the (f)Aegon bandwagon, or, more probably, the Jon Snow bandwagon and the real war in the north. We'll see.

Blackfish could be a way of saving Jaime and Brienne from LSH. He could be horrified at what his niece has become and gets to Jaime and Brienne before they get to her. Jaime and Brienne end up prisoners together again, but at least with a reasonable, living person. I dunno. But I don't think Jaime is going to die early in the next book. I feel there's lots of story still to tell. I don't expect Jaime to survive to the end but dying early in the next book in the hands of LSH just doesn't seem right storywise. I could be wrong, of course.

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1 hour ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

You are correct, Roose's line is absolutely the sticking point. We'll see i suppose, but iirc Bri was there during that conversation with Jaime and Roose.

The Freys openly admit to murdering tens of thousands of people in violation of guest right. There is a pretty hard line between that and 'did you keep your word?' 'Yes.' 'I don't believe you.'

Brienne was not there when Roose asked Jaime to give his regards to his father and Jaime answered back, as common coutesy would demand, to give his regards to Robb. So there isn't anybody to exenorate Jaime, explain he just said those words as a common courtesy, not as some dark and devious affirmation of the Red Wedding. We, the readers, know that Jaime didn't know the plan, the horror of it - he's shaken when he learns of it - but, once again, few people would believe Jaime, more are ready to cast him in worst light possible. Kinda story of his life, eh?

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I'm really interested to see how she'll be written in The Winds Of Winter. 

It makes me think that Lady Stoneheart will have some POV Chapters in the book. I know George said that he does not intend to add anymore POV Characters to the story, but she was a POV Character before she died and came back. 

So i think we'll get some kind of POV from Stoneheart in the next book.

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3 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Brienne was not there when Roose asked Jaime to give his regards to his father and Jaime answered back, as common coutesy would demand, to give his regards to Robb. So there isn't anybody to exenorate Jaime, explain he just said those words as a common courtesy, not as some dark and devious affirmation of the Red Wedding. We, the readers, know that Jaime didn't know the plan, the horror of it - he's shaken when he learns of it - but, once again, few people would believe Jaime, more are ready to cast him in worst light possible. Kinda story of his life, eh?

Yes,in every respect.Which is why I don't think he can survive a direct encounter with Stoneheart et al.The only voice approaching reason in that camp belongs to Thoros, but I doubt he'd be inclined to use it in defense of Jaime, even if he were listened to.

I still tend to the notion that he will hide in the shrubbery whilst Brienne faces the music.That's not to say Jaime won't join Brienne in a further quest to find the Stark girls.He should,in theory,be heading back to Kings Landing but given the way he burned Cersei's letter,that may not be top of his agenda.

Also,we have to acknowledge he has a fairly sizeable armed force with him at Riverrun*.He could use that on Stoneheart and the BWB ,but given the Lady's enduring presence that's unlikely to pan out either.

He could lead them North or maybe East?

Thematically,I'm sure Martin will use this character to reflect on themes such as grief,vengeance and the concept of resurrection.I wasn't all that keen on the idea of Lady Stoneheart's continued presence initially,but this is Martin and I'm sure he'll write it well.

 

Edited by redriver
*Probably at Raventree now.

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I think we can be fairly sure that Brienne leading the unsuspecting Jaime straight to LSH to be killed is not the story. Even by the end of ADWD, Jaime has been missing for weeks. I'd think LSH or the BwoB with her would advertise such a major kill far and wide.

Maybe they have found a way to use Jaime, to blackmail him in some way? I just find that implausible, because the vengeanceful LSH wants Jaime dead, plain and simple. So maybe he and Brienne never got there, maybe they just took off (but what about poor Pod and Ser Hyle?), maybe they were intercepted by the Blackfish and his troops, and the Blackfish treats with his former niece? I dunno.

I just don't believe Jaime is going to die at the hands of LSH in the early chapters of the next book. He'll die but not just yet.

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What about this for a possible scenario:

When Jaime and Brienne return to the hideout of the Brotherhood without Banners and Lady Stoneheart, Jaime manifests as Azor Ahai - probably he picks up Oathkeeper for a trial by combat and the sword spontaneously bursts into flames. Thoros attests that this is the "true" flaming sword because he knows all the tricks for faking a flaming sword. Because the BwB have mostly been converted to follow the Lord of Light, they refuse to let Catelyn kill Jaime. In fact, they transfer their loyalty to Jaime and he is now in the position of deciding the fate of Lady Stoneheart.

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32 minutes ago, Seams said:

What about this for a possible scenario:

When Jaime and Brienne return to the hideout of the Brotherhood without Banners and Lady Stoneheart, Jaime manifests as Azor Ahai - probably he picks up Oathkeeper for a trial by combat and the sword spontaneously bursts into flames. Thoros attests that this is the "true" flaming sword because he knows all the tricks for faking a flaming sword. Because the BwB have mostly been converted to follow the Lord of Light, they refuse to let Catelyn kill Jaime. In fact, they transfer their loyalty to Jaime and he is now in the position of deciding the fate of Lady Stoneheart.

Hey, anything that keeps Jaime alive, I'm fine with, lol, but...

No. Jaime isn't Azor Ahai Reborn, imo. If he picks up Oathkeeper, he's gonna be a bit clumsy with it, he hasn't - yet - quite mastered lefty sword fighting. No magics, please. Jaime has had one or two "magic" brushes (weirwood dream, vision of Joanna) but he's a practical man and has to get to grips with his new life, himself, in a practical and honest intropective way first.

Besides, he's not one of the big main characters (Arya, Dany, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, perhaps Sansa), so his story, however interesting or compelling it might be, is just a side story to the real big one. He might play a part in it - I hope he does - but it won't be a leading role.

As to LSH, I don't see Jaime getting out of that encounter alive, so I'm hoping for something like the Blackfish capturing him (aah, the possibilities of humiliating Jaime further) and maybe stashing him as a prisoner in a loyal Stark stronghold, say, like Greywater Watch... Where Jaime could encounter Howland Reed... And all that regret/guilt about Rhaegar's children could find new meaning (also park him safely out of the way of fAegon).

His children Tommen and Myrcella are still problems for Jaime. He seems to be wanting to be a real, honest dad to them, but it's complicated. Can he get them off the throne and save their lives? Cersei will never allow abdication and thus her loss of power. Oh, diddums, it's gonna be intetesting.

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6 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

l Bri and Pod may be

I don't think that she really wanted to hang them. It was blackmailing.

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29 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

I don't think that she really wanted to hang them. It was blackmailing.

Successful, then. Brienne broke, relented, watching poor little innocent Pod hanging and choking.

We don't know what Brienne thought about Ser Hyle potentially dying.

Ah, all right, she didn't want him to die, either. He was innocent of any crimes LSH laid at Brienne's door. He was a bit nasty to Brienne when they both were knights of the summer in Renly's camp. But they both have since seen much real horror and war, neither is the same they were. Ser Hyle is beginning to appreciate Brienne and her prowess, even defends her to Lord Randyll Tarly, and apparently gets sacked for his efforts. Ser Hyle wants to marry Brienne for her lands and title (Brienne is the heir to Tarth) but I think he actually sorta likes her, thinks she isn't too bad, after all. And Tarth is sweet.

Poor Ser Hyle, he doesn't stand a chance. Forget teen crush Renly, there's a new man going. One who gives two shits about her claim or status, one who calls her "wench" and gives her a Valyrian steel sword, armour and a horse "as ugly as you" (Later we learn it's actually a very pretty horse.) He gives her a knightly, honourable quest. He believes in her, trusts her and her honour. And her fighting prowess. However amiable Ser Hyle is, and he isn't a bad guy, he's nothing compared to the guy who treats Brienne like a fellow knight. Down to the awkward chivalric love. (Who's the knight, who's the maid here? Jaime and Brienne are confused, they're both the knights but also both the maids. Or something.)

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22 hours ago, Lollygag said:

She isn't actually about revenge, she's about revenge as a poor bandaid for dealing with her grief over her lost family. I disagree that she's just a vengeance machine.

She is about vengeance.  Don't get me wrong, she thinks she's doing justice.  But color it what you like and it's still the same because it is still no more than revenge.  The Starks rebelled and they lost to the Lannisters.  Walder and Bolton pulled off a brilliant (albeit custom-breaking, honor-lacking  maneuver) strategy that rid them of the Starks and ended a bloody rebellion.  Catelyn has a right to be mad but so do the undeserving small people that got trampled by the lions and the wolves during their conflict.  Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Tywin are to blame for most of it.  

Catelyn and Arya are the instruments of Stark vengeance.  They will do a great deal of harm to Westeros.  Their feelings are valid but their choice to get justice for losing the war is hard to sympathize with.  War is hell and they came out on the losing end.  It's best for everyone if they suck it up and let go.  I don't think they will but we can hope they will not be around too long to create much mayhem.

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On 4/15/2018 at 3:35 AM, Lollygag said:

She [Arya] isn't actually about revenge, she's about revenge as a poor bandaid for dealing with her grief over her lost family. I disagree that she's just a vengeance machine.

Thank you, Lollygag, for this insight. I quite agree.

Arya is a tragic figure, a tragic character, even when she learns new things in the House of Black and White. I think the point is that Arya has to step away from her childish black-and-white morality, accept greyness and use her considerable skills for good, for life, not death. To realise revenge isn't a dish best served cold, it's best served not at all.

There are, in the fandom, "Arya fans" who think she's a cool super ninja warrior princess, who can do no wrong and who will defeat the Others single-handedly because she's so super ninja warrior princess cool. Ugh. Like, does she have a personality? Is she someone as opposed to her cynical killing no-one?

That's actually a huge cop out. "It wisnae me, no-one killed 'im." What would poor dead Ned think?! 

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6 hours ago, The Chains of Heaven said:
On 4/15/2018 at 1:35 AM, Lollygag said:

She isn't actually about revenge, she's about revenge as a poor bandaid for dealing with her grief over her lost family. I disagree that she's just a vengeance machine.

She is about vengeance.  Don't get me wrong, she thinks she's doing justice.  But color it what you like and it's still the same because it is still no more than revenge.  The Starks rebelled and they lost to the Lannisters.  Walder and Bolton pulled off a brilliant (albeit custom-breaking, honor-lacking  maneuver) strategy that rid them of the Starks and ended a bloody rebellion.  Catelyn has a right to be mad but so do the undeserving small people that got trampled by the lions and the wolves during their conflict.  Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Tywin are to blame for most of it.  

Catelyn and Arya are the instruments of Stark vengeance.  They will do a great deal of harm to Westeros.  Their feelings are valid but their choice to get justice for losing the war is hard to sympathize with.  War is hell and they came out on the losing end.  It's best for everyone if they suck it up and let go.  I don't think they will but we can hope they will not be around too long to create much mayhem.

Just let it go.That's fucking brilliant.

So her son was stabbed to death (under guest rights) then beheaded and his direwolf's head was sown onto his body,as witnessed by her daughter who's already seen her father beheaded, then she has been dragged through the worst atrocities the war has to offer.This is shortly after she learns that her your two youngest sons have been killed by Theon Greyjoy.

Suck it up?I don't think so.

Edited by redriver

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You don’t bring a major POV character back from the dead (ugh) and give them a major role in the books on top of extremely significant and complicated relationships with loads of other major characters just to have said character amount to nothing more than a vengeance zombie. Unless you wanted to write the most boooorrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggggg thing ever. Then go right on ahead. Coffee up!

Jaime: Catelyn?

Stoneheart: Kill.

Sansa: Mom?

Stoneheart: Anyone I can kill? Otherwise, gotta go. Only do vengeance these days.

Bran: Mom?

Stoneheart: Anyone I can kill? Otherwise, gotta go. Only do vengeance these days.

Jon: Stepmom?

Stoneheart: Kill.

Jon: But wait, I’m really the son of Rhaegar & Lyanna. Ned never cheated and I’m no threat to your kids.

Stoneheart (shrugs): Kill.

Brienne: Are you still going to kill me?

Stoneheart: Yes.

Arya: Mom?

Stoneheart: Anyone I can kill? Otherwise, gotta go. Only do vengeance these days.

Rickon: Mom?

Stoneheart: Anyone I can kill? Otherwise, gotta go. Only do vengeance these days.

 

7 hours ago, The Chains of Heaven said:

She is about vengeance.  Don't get me wrong, she thinks she's doing justice.  But color it what you like and it's still the same because it is still no more than revenge.  The Starks rebelled and they lost to the Lannisters.  Walder and Bolton pulled off a brilliant (albeit custom-breaking, honor-lacking  maneuver) strategy that rid them of the Starks and ended a bloody rebellion.  Catelyn has a right to be mad but so do the undeserving small people that got trampled by the lions and the wolves during their conflict.  Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Tywin are to blame for most of it.  

Catelyn and Arya are the instruments of Stark vengeance.  They will do a great deal of harm to Westeros.  Their feelings are valid but their choice to get justice for losing the war is hard to sympathize with.  War is hell and they came out on the losing end.  It's best for everyone if they suck it up and let go.  I don't think they will but we can hope they will not be around too long to create much mayhem.

Really agree with the bolded. You can't look forward and backward at the same time. One comes at the expense of the other. Only so many hours in a day. Arya is not at risk of becoming No One because of her FM training, she's at risk of becoming No One because of the revenge. Can't count how many times I've seen in books and movies that one devotes their lives to revenge just to get and then realize it changed nothing and they no longer knew who they were anymore. The show Broadchurch did a great treatment of the costs of obsession with revenge. Most of the other characters sucked it up and let it go of their horrible experiences deciding to look forward and they're infinitely more interesting than being broken record players of hate.

 

6 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

Thank you, Lollygag, for this insight. I quite agree.

Arya is a tragic figure, a tragic character, even when she learns new things in the House of Black and White. I think the point is that Arya has to step away from her childish black-and-white morality, accept greyness and use her considerable skills for good, for life, not death. To realise revenge isn't a dish best served cold, it's best served not at all.

There are, in the fandom, "Arya fans" who think she's a cool super ninja warrior princess, who can do no wrong and who will defeat the Others single-handedly because she's so super ninja warrior princess cool. Ugh. Like, does she have a personality? Is she someone as opposed to her cynical killing no-one?

That's actually a huge cop out. "It wisnae me, no-one killed 'im." What would poor dead Ned think?! 

Yup! Actually, I find a lot of so-called "badass" characters to be tragic.

 

 

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14 hours ago, The Chains of Heaven said:

She is about vengeance.  Don't get me wrong, she thinks she's doing justice.  But color it what you like and it's still the same because it is still no more than revenge.  The Starks rebelled and they lost to the Lannisters.  Walder and Bolton pulled off a brilliant (albeit custom-breaking, honor-lacking  maneuver) strategy that rid them of the Starks and ended a bloody rebellion.  Catelyn has a right to be mad but so do the undeserving small people that got trampled by the lions and the wolves during their conflict.  Jaime, Cersei, Catelyn, Robb, Renly, Stannis, and Tywin are to blame for most of it.  

Catelyn and Arya are the instruments of Stark vengeance.  They will do a great deal of harm to Westeros.  Their feelings are valid but their choice to get justice for losing the war is hard to sympathize with.  War is hell and they came out on the losing end.  It's best for everyone if they suck it up and let go.  I don't think they will but we can hope they will not be around too long to create much mayhem.

I disagree with this profoundly. First, I'd be amazed, astounded, if the sum of Catelyn's and Arya's achievements is 'a great deal of harm for Westeros'. Take a good hard look at the harm that's been done to Westeros already and who directed it. Think of the invasions yet to come. LSH and Arya are fighters, and there's no shortage of just causes to fight for.

The bolded. This basically describes a system that rewards the first aggressor. It's not humane: the cost-benefit analysis tips away from keeping the peace, and warfare/atrocity becomes the rational decision. Once the aggressors are in power, the rules change, of course.

14 hours ago, talvikorppi said:

We don't know what Brienne thought about Ser Hyle potentially dying.

Ah, all right, she didn't want him to die, either. He was innocent of any crimes LSH laid at Brienne's door. He was a bit nasty to Brienne when they both were knights of the summer in Renly's camp. But they both have since seen much real horror and war, neither is the same they were. Ser Hyle is beginning to appreciate Brienne and her prowess, even defends her to Lord Randyll Tarly, and apparently gets sacked for his efforts. Ser Hyle wants to marry Brienne for her lands and title (Brienne is the heir to Tarth) but I think he actually sorta likes her, thinks she isn't too bad, after all. And Tarth is sweet.

There's so much we don't know, but if we step outside the narrative and look at the nuts and bolts beneath, it looks to me that Ser Hyle is a pale shadow of Jaime, and meant to be so. Morrows not made, paths not chosen, etc.

Ser Hyle gives us the sweet picture of a marriage, and children, and mutual respect - and Brienne would be so deeply tempted by that. Most likely, Hyle is going to stay hanged, and the sweet dream will die with him: Brienne's habit is to go out on her quests alone.

For Jaime, Hyle's death would mark the death the lightweight side of his character: the joker with the careless cruelty, the lack of values, all that. It would be a marker of growth.

Edited by Springwatch
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10 hours ago, redriver said:

Just let it go.That's fucking brilliant.

So her son was stabbed to death (under guest rights) then beheaded and his direwolf's head was sown onto his body,as witnessed by her daughter who's already seen her father beheaded, then she has been dragged through the worst atrocities the war has to offer.This is shortly after she learns that her your two youngest sons have been killed by Theon Greyjoy.

Suck it up?I don't think so.

This is an interesting view on the situation that deserve a separate discussion on it's own.   There are at least two thoughts on this.

Forgive and forget.  Or at least let go.  This is the way of progress in this specific case.  To take the high road.  After all, many children are now homeless because of decisions the Starks and the Lannisters made.  They didn't take up sword.  They're not doing anything to add to the violence.  They accept their loved ones are gone.  

Justice for the dead.  This pov believes the lives of the dead had value.  Those who took those lives must pay back with their lives.  To forgive is to treat the dead as if they had no value.  Only life can pay for death.  Forget the big picture and only worry about justice for your loved ones.  

My own opinion is somewhere in between.  The dead cry out for justice and they deserve to be heard.  But taking the course to violence is only justified if it will avoid further violence.  Many times a hero kills a few to save the many.  Killing Cersei will potentially save many lives.  I have no issue with that.  Killing the old insurance man saved no lives.  Now, no claims will get paid because the underwriter is dead and so is his business.  All his considerable assets become property of his bank.  Good for the bank, bad for everybody else.  

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The last time Cat had Jaime as a prisoner she was prepared to exchange him for her family members even after learning that he had thrown Bran out the window.  As far as LSH knows she only has two remaining living family members and one of them, Edmure, is a prisoner at Casterly Rock.  If Cat's still more human than vengeance zombie I think there's a very good chance she'd be interested in trading Jaime for her brother and his pregnant wife.

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I don't think she'll rest until she has all of the principal Freys, Jaime, and, last of all, Roose -- and that last fight ought to be a doozy if it ever happens.

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22 hours ago, Kandrax said:

I don't think that she really wanted to hang them. It was blackmailing.

Pretty much this. The entire scene was a manipulation to get Brienne to do something that she normally wouldn't do. I wouldn't believe anything any of them said to Brienne.

The real question is what they want with Jaime? I'm pretty sure they don't mean to kill him. My guess is that she means offer him a chance for redemption by swearing to take the black in exchange for Jon Snow being released from his vows. He was supposed to be a hostage exchange for Arya and Sansa but that never eventuated. The fact that Jon was killed and Catelyn can resurrect the dead is more than a handy coincidence. 

There are obviously a couple of points people tend to argue against when presented with this. The first is geography and how far away they are from the wall. What is interesting however is that the last we saw of that particular scene, according to the asoiaf timeline, occurred around 3 months before Jon was assassinated. So whatever they are up to has not been notable enough to make a scene that causes news to travel elsewhere. Jaime is still presumed missing in the epilogue (although that is not quite 3 months). They could actually arrive at the wall immediately after Jon was killed if GRRM wanted.

The other thing people would argue is that Catelyn hates Jon. And she did. It's kind of the point though. GRRM likes to write characters so that they face really tough tests in the decisions they make. He was It's all the way through the entire series and he can be quoted as saying...

Quote

"I've always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing."

So Catelyn is torn between following Robb's will and crowning Jon Snow, the boy she hated, as king in the north, or disregarding her firstborn sons dying wish and instead searching for her daughters she knows are alive. Tough call.

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