Onion Knight

The ASOIAF wiki thread

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On 10/27/2017 at 3:01 AM, zionius said:

I guess "Cobble Cover" in the wiki should change to "Cobble Cove" with a redirection.

Updated!

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Small question:

On the wiki, Raymar Royce and his son Benedict who married Jocelyn Stark are counted as historical members of House Royce of The Gates of the Moon, but this seems to be based solely on both being a cadet branch of House Royce. Are we really sure that they belong to the same cadet branch?

Raymar is a Lord in his own right, but as far as i know Nestor only became a Lord when he got The Gates of the Moon only being called Lord before that out of courtesy for his rank as High Steward of the Vale.

Also Nestor says Lord Yohn Royce is his cousin, no idea if its first, second or third cousin but any descendant of Raymar his older son (Benedict was his younger son and only had daughters) would be so distantly related that he would not fall under any of these. I find it unlikely that if Nestor and Yohn where cousins that Nestor would descend of Raymar, although there is always the possibility that there was some sort of marriage between the two branches of course but as of now there is no evidence of this.

So in short i am wondering what this connection between Raymar's branch and that of The Gates of the Moon is based on, other then both being a cadet branch of House Royce. Since i do not see any other connection mentioned on the wiki.

And then there is the fact that Nestor changed his sigil when he became Lord of The Gates of the Moon, why would he do that if he already belonged to a established cadet branch with its own lands, you would think they would already have there own sigil to reflect there status as Lords separate from the main branch.

Edited by direpupy

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Just to clarify i think that the possibility that Raymar and Benedict are not of the same branch as Nestor should be mentioned on the wiki but i asked my question in they above post to see if i missed something before i make a change to the wiki page.

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All I could find is that Catelyn describes Nestle as "a formidable lord in his own right" in AGOT, so the title doesn't seem to be a simple courtesy.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

All I could find is that Catelyn describes Nestle as "a formidable lord in his own right" in AGOT, so the title doesn't seem to be a simple courtesy.

Thanks thats helpfull, but still it is not much in the form of evidence that they are from the same branch. So i do think it should be mentioned on the wiki that this is an assumption and not a fact.

I looked into it myself some more aswell and found the same thing you did, but it says that he is of A lesser branch suggesting there is more then one.

Catelyn dismounted to stand before him. "Lord Nestor," she said. She knew the man only by reputation; Bronze Yohn's cousin, from a lesser branch of House Royce, yet still a formidable lord in his own right. "We have had a long and tiring journey. I would beg the hospitality of your roof tonight, if I might."

However in aSoS Catelyn speaks of THE junior branch as if there is only one.

Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch.

Since there is some different wording lesser versus junior it may be that the junior branch is a long establised side-branch (like the Karstarks are for the Stark's) wheras seeing as Nestor calls Yohn cousin he and his lesser branch is more resently split of, and thus considered to sort of still be part of the main family. But i have no evidence of this so its just speculation.

I am going to leave them as potential ancestors of Nestor but i will put a warning on the wiki page that this connection is for now speculation.

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House Parren is listed in "Houses in the Westerlands" in Citadel Heraldry, and the world book described them as "Lannister kings wed their children to Andals as well...Other noble houses were also born in such unions—such as Jast, Lefford, Parren, Droxe, Marbrand, Braxe, Serrett, Sarsfield, and Kyndall. " in Page 196.

However, the world book also listed them in The Reach section: "Many noble houses of the Reach trace their ancestry back to Andal adventurers given lands and wives by Garth IX, Merle I, and Gwayne V, amongst them the Ormes, Parrens, Gracefords, Cuys, Roxtons, Ufferings, Leygoods, and Varners. "

The inconsistency is solved with the new editions of the world book. Since v3.1r3 of Bantam kindle version, the lines in The Westerlands changed to "Other noble houses were also born in such unions—such as Jast, Lefford, Drox, Marbrand, Brax, Serrett, Sarsfield, and Kyndall."

I guess the wiki page http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Parren requires modification now.

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Might it be an idea to create a wiki-page where such fixed or confirmed errors in the books are listed?

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With regards to family tree templates, is there an orderly way to display third marriages (or even more), either with or without descendants?

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On 11/6/2017 at 4:42 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Might it be an idea to create a wiki-page where such fixed or confirmed errors in the books are listed?

I have collected quite a few. Listed fixed errors in AKotSK & TWoIaF are complete, as they are found with auto comparison of texts. Typos are excluded.

 

Fixed errors:

1. TSS. Cobble Cover -> Cobble Cove, as explained above. A major change, showing the Osgrey fields once expanded to the western shore.

2. TSS. The child's rhyme echoed in his head. Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead, and doomed to hell. -> The old shield rhyme echoed in his head. Oak and iron, guard me well, or else I'm dead, and doomed to hell. To match THK.

3. TSS. Dunk grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his. It was awkward with the crutch and the difference in their heights. He almost fell before he got his lips on hers. He kissed her hard. One of her hands went round his neck, and one around his back. -> Dunk grabbed her braid and pulled her face to his. It was awkward with the crutch and the difference in their heights. He almost fell before he got his lips on hers. He kissed her hard. One of her hands went round his neck, and one around his chest. I guess too uncomfortable for her with both hand behind Dunk?

4. TMK. Her bride's cloak trailed behind her, done in candy green and white and yellow. -> Her bride's cloak trailed behind her, done in undy green and white and yellow. That's the Butterwell sigil.

5. I.Appendix. Viserys II, fourth son of Aegon III -> Viserys II, younger brother of Aegon III.  Where Ran gained his status.

6. IV.6 Arya I. A harbor was visible off to her right, a tangle of piers and quays crowded with bigbellied whalers out of Ibben, swan ships from the Summer Isles, and more galleys than a girl could count. Another harbor, more distant, was off to her left, beyond a sinking point of land where the tops of half-drowned buildings thrust themselves above the water. -> A harbor was visible off to her right, beyond a sinking point of land where the tops of half-drowned buildings thrust themselves above the water: a tangle of piers and quays crowded with big-bellied whalers out of Ibben, swan ships from the Summer Isles, and more galleys than a girl could count. Another harbor, more distant, was off to her left. GRRM didn't fix Braavos map in 2005. So Drowned Town sat next to Purple Harbor. But since the publish of TLoIaF in 2012, Drowned Town is next to Ragman's Harbor.

7. IV.21 Queenmaker. “…The lion is not so easily provoked.”“The lion's dead. Who knows which cub the lioness prefers?”“The one in her own den.” ->completely removed. She learnt Tywin's death only later.

8. IV.44 Jaime VII. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. -> She had breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Most controversial mistake.

 

Confirmed errors:

1. I.5 Jon I, Tyrion’s tumbling. Confirmed here and here.

2. I.15 Sansa I, Renly's green eyes.

3. Sex of Bran's horse Dancer.

4. "Shit, I made the wall too high." 

 

Probable errors(memory errors excluded):

1. I.15 Sansa I, And so they left her direwolf and his bodyguard behind them, while they ranged east along the north bank of the Trident with no company save Lion's Tooth. They should go west to meet Arya, as discussed here.

2. I.Appendix. —SER JAIME, called the Kingslayer, heir to Casterly Rock, a twin to Cersei,

3. II.32 Sansa III. When she emerged, Sansa walked on the Hound's left, away from the burned side of his face. The Hound was burnt on the left side.

4. III.24 Bran II. When they lost their way, as happened once or twice, they need only wait for a clear cold night when the clouds did not intrude, and look up in the sky for the Ice Dragon. The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once. Osha said "the blue star in the rider's eye" in II.35 Bran V. Yet I guess they wouldn't get lost so long as there's a second blue star in the Ice Dragon, and the two blue stars are close to each other.

5. III.44 Jaime V. The black goat of Qohor, he knew. Jaime cupped his hands to shout. Phantom hand.

6. III.49 Cat VI. Brothers, half-brothers, good brothers, and nephews. Raymund and I shared a motherRaymund and Lame Lothar didn't share a mother, though they could have shared a milk mother.

7. IV.4 Brienne I. The hedge knights and the septon washed down the meat with ale, but Brienne drank a cup of goat's milk. Should be the merchant.

8. IV.32 Cersai VII. “Stannis may have had a hand in this. Balon Greyjoy offered my lord father an alliance. Perhaps his son has offered one to Stannis.” Should be brother.

 

Errors in TWoIaF:

This thread.

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On 5-11-2017 at 9:42 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Might it be an idea to create a wiki-page where such fixed or confirmed errors in the books are listed?

No further opinions on this? The info is partially already on the wiki, but this way would be gathered on  a single page, functioning like an unofficial errata for reader.

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Errata's a good idea. I'm not sure of a single page, though. Might it not be better to include an Errata subsection for each book in question, with a uniform form, with perhaps some sort of indexing page that points to the relevant errata on a per book basis? I'm agnostic on this, just a thought on how to approach it.

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On 12-11-2017 at 11:14 AM, Ran said:

Errata's a good idea. I'm not sure of a single page, though. Might it not be better to include an Errata subsection for each book in question, with a uniform form, with perhaps some sort of indexing page that points to the relevant errata on a per book basis? I'm agnostic on this, just a thought on how to approach it.

I'll start gathering the information for the page(s). Depending on how much can be found, another possibility would be to divide it in four pages for now (one for the five main novels, one for TWOIAF, one for the Dunk & Egg novellas, and one for the historical novellas) and only create a separate page for each book/novella should the pages get too long.

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Yeah, that makes sense to me.

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Questions arising from The Sons of the Dragon, now that the grace period is over:

First, the text states that a "Septon Pater", 90 and blind, was made the new High Septon after the one who launched the Faith Militant uprising "died", a puppet of Maegor (who didn't live much longer anyway and was soon replaced by the High Lickspittle).

This may be the first time we got the name of a character who became High Septon, BEFORE they were High Septon.  I mean a person name - "High Sparrow" was itself more of a title.

How should we title his page?  "Septon Pater", "Pater", or even "High Septon (Pater)" strike me as ungodly.  Ungodly, I say!

I'd go with "High Septon (prior to High Lickspittle", "High Septon (44AC)", "High Sparrow (Maegor's)" etc. etc.

Second, Poxy Jeyne Poore....there is no "House Poore".  Should we take this as evidence that one exists and make an article for "House Poore"?  Or, was this just a sobriquet that Poxy Jeyne picked up?  "Jeyne Poore" = "Poore Jeyne of the Poor Fellows?"

Third, listed among the dead after the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye is "Ser Willam Whistler".  There is no "House Whistler" - should we take this as evidence that one exists and make an article for it?

***I have a theory:  it says that Prince Aegon's followers, mostly from the westerlands and riverlands, were Tarbeck, Piper, Roote, Vance, Charlton, Frey, Paege, Parren, Westerling (and also Lord Corbray, and Denys Snow of Barrowton).  BUT, only a page later, it lists the dead after the battle from Prince Aegon's side as:  Denys Snow, Lord Alyn Tarbeck, Jon Piper, Ronnel Vance, Wiliam Whistler.

So...similar to the "Robar" vs "Rogar" mixup....was this due to Dozois mis-reading a handwritten document, and it actually lists "Willam Westerling"?  And he mistook it as "Whistler"?

Fourth....I'm hesitating over making declarative statements about the Grand Captain of the Warrior's Sons:  the text simply says that "The Warrior's Sons had chosen a new Grand Captain".  Does this mean he was elected by popular vote of all members?  Can we say that definitively?  Or, do only the high-ranking officers vote?   It might not even be a formal "election" as such.  I mean it SOUNDS like Lord Commander elections in the Night's Watch, but I don't know.  How should the "Grand Captain" article phrase that?

 

 

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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6 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Questions arising from The Sons of the Dragon, now that the grace period is over:

First, the text states that a "Septon Pater", 90 and blind, was made the new High Septon after the one who launched the Faith Militant uprising "died", a puppet of Maegor (who didn't live much longer anyway and was soon replaced by the High Lickspittle).

This may be the first time we got the name of a character who became High Septon, BEFORE they were High Septon.  I mean a person name - "High Sparrow" was itself more of a title.

How should we title his page?  "Septon Pater", "Pater", or even "High Septon (Pater)" strike me as ungodly.  Ungodly, I say!

I'd go with "High Septon (prior to High Lickspittle", "High Septon (44AC)", "High Sparrow (Maegor's)" etc. etc.

 

 

 

Arek has already made the page and has gone for High Septon (Pater) i honestly do not see anything wrong with it, even if he is the first we know the name off after we ourselfs are not Andal are we :P

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On 23/10/2017 at 1:57 PM, Nittanian said:

Yep, seems to duplicate Category:Characters from the Iron Islands

Actually, there are a couple of thralls in the Iron Fleet who are "from the Iron Islands", but not Ironborn, mentioned in the Victarion TWOW preview.

This categorization follows the example already set by having categories for Valyrians, and a new one I created for the Rhoynar, to differentiate Yandry and Ysilla from Nymeria and Prince Garin. They all fit "Characters from the Rhoyne", but Nymeria and Pricne Garin are Rhoynar while Yandry and Ysilla are Orphans

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7 hours ago, direpupy said:

Arek has already made the page and has gone for High Septon (Pater) i honestly do not see anything wrong with it, even if he is the first we know the name off after we ourselfs are not Andal are we :P

This isn't the god-damned TV series.  Not yet.  It is *forbidden* to record the names of High Septons.

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