Lost Season 6 v.2

[Demonblade]

I realize that we don't know a lot about what Jacob's doing and why, and it's quite possible he's the 'good' guy - but other than him being the white stone and talking very gently, he's apparently forced some pretty shitty things. Ben killed every Dharma man alive including his dad to get into Jacob's club (and apparently at Jacob's behest). Ben wasn't smokey's creature, after all - he was Jacob's first and foremost, and he didn't kill Locke on Smokey's behalf.

Just examining the text...it doesn't seem like smokey's super evil, just that he has a bad rap and has menacing music wherever he goes. Similarly, it doesn't seem like Jacob's that great; he just dresses well and has the tinkly piano of harmlessness by his side.

Why are you so sure that Ben was Jacob's creature? Isn't it odd that Ben was supposedly ordered by Jacob to kill the Dharma people despite not ever meeting him? Sure Richard probably told him to order Ben to do it but was Richard getting orders from Jacob? How can you be so sure? From what I remember, when Ben confronted Jacob asking him 'why not me?', Jacob looked like he had no answer for Ben and just asked him, 'what about you?' as if he knew then that Ben was already MiB's man, and likely always was his man. I can understand trying to make the MiB/Jacob dynamic more grey but this MiB love reminds me of a teenager rooting for the bad guy in WWE wrestling. It may seem cool but it's really quite juvenile if you really expect him to come out on top at the end.

[All-for-Joffrey]

Why are you so sure that Ben was Jacob's creature? Isn't it odd that Ben was supposedly ordered by Jacob to kill the Dharma people despite not ever meeting him? Sure Richard probably told him to order Ben to do it but was Richard getting orders from Jacob? How can you be so sure? From what I remember, when Ben confronted Jacob asking him 'why not me?', Jacob looked like he had no answer for Ben and just asked him, 'what about you?' as if he knew then that Ben was already MiB's man, and likely always was his man. I can understand trying to make the MiB/Jacob dynamic more grey but this MiB love reminds me of a teenager rooting for the bad guy in WWE wrestling. It may seem cool but it's really quite juvenile if you really expect him to come out on top at the end.

The other option, of course, is that it was solely something Widmore ordered done and had nothing to do with Richard, Jacob, MIB, etc. :P That would be right in keeping with Widmore's character.

Also, I just did a rewatch and if you notice in the very first few seconds the first picture shows Christian with a very very young Jack (much younger than we've seen him on the show) with a young, black haired woman who is clearly not his wife from the normal timeline...

[Caligula_K]

Why does one have to be the good guy and one the bad guy? It never stopped amazing me how when the Ben/Widmore conflict was center stage people constantly had to frame the one as good and the other as evil, and how they would constantly change sides depending on which character got the last word in a previous episode- so after the Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, Widmore was obviously the good guy, but after Dead is Dead they thought that Ben was just misunderstood and Widmore was a black hat. Umm, no. Both are assholes who lie and murder to get what they want; Ben believes that he was fully justified in taking the island from Widmore and that he's protecting it, while Widmore believes that Ben usurped him and that he's the good guy.

So why can't it be the same for Jacob and the MIB? Both clearly have their sides of the story. I'm a little more trusting of Jacob and I think he'll be the "better" side, for lack of a better term, if only because Hurley and Jack are part of his camp. But Jacob's followers have done some pretty bad stuff in his name which he had to be aware of, and he has ruined hundreds of lives indirectly to get his candidates to the island (both the candidates and those around them who die- say, just about everyone from flight 815 now). The MiB is no better; he directly murders and manipulates people and cons others (see: Locke's whole life). We'll see how it plays out, but I have no problem accepting that neither Jacob or the MiB are particularly good or bad; Jacob may have a good goal in keeping the MiB on the island, but will that excuse all he's done?

Just to note also that Ben was probably not the one who decided to gas Dharmaville; Widmore was in charge at that point. Hopefully we'll find out more about the Purge this season, and whether Jacob or the MiB was responsible.

One thing that bothered me about last night's episode: Dogen knowing what a candidate was. It was bad enough that in What Kate Does it seemed like random Other Mac knew more about the Smoke Monster than Ben (the leader!) had ever, but I can't see why Jacob would tell Dogen about candidates and not Richard. I was fine with them introducing the Temple Others, but if it turns out that Dogen outranks Richard and the leader, it will be extremely lame.

Edit: And I know that lots of fans are pissed off that Jack broke the mirror. I thought it was an awesome scene. I don't know about you guys, but if I had gone through all the shit Jack has gone through, found out that the entire time a guy named Jacob had essentially orchestrated it all, and Jacob didn't even show up to answer my questions, I'd be pretty pissed too and would not be thinking rationally. Although most fans seem to dislike him, 90% of the time I recgonize that the decisions Jack makes are the ones I'd make to; he doesn't have the context we do, and the fact that his decisions sometimes end badly is not usually his fault (though the Incident was not the brightest move).

[Jaxom 1974]

Do we know Richard is in the dark regarding candidates?

[Demonblade]

Didn't the Others go after the 815ers and assault the beach at the behest of Ben? Where was Jacob in that decision? Unless we figure out that Jacob actually caused the 815 crash and therefore causing most of those passengers' deaths, I don't know what we can definitively place on Jacob's shoulders that is 'evil'. I think conning Locke and having his man Ben kill him is evil. I've never liked Locke right from the beginning, but even I felt sorry for the guy when he was killed.

Edit: And I know that lots of fans are pissed off that Jack broke the mirror. I thought it was an awesome scene. I don't know about you guys, but if I had gone through all the shit Jack has gone through, found out that the entire time a guy named Jacob had essentially orchestrated it all, and Jacob didn't even show up to answer my questions, I'd be pretty pissed too and would not be thinking rationally. Although most fans seem to dislike him, 90% of the time I recgonize that the decisions Jack makes are the ones I'd make to; he doesn't have the context we do, and the fact that his decisions sometimes end badly is not usually his fault (though the Incident was not the brightest move).

Well I for one always liked Jack and I liked the scene too. ;)

[Caligula_K]

Do we know Richard is in the dark regarding candidates?

Yep. In the last episode the Lockeness Monster went to talk to him- he said he looked like Locke because he knew Locke, as a candidate, could access Jacob. Richard asked what a candidate was and the Lockeness Monster went on a whole schpiel about how Jacob had been keeping him in the dark for all these years but that he would reveal everything to Richard. So it is kind of jarring that Dogen would know these things but that Richard wouldn't.

Didn't the Others go after the 815ers and assault the beach at the behest of Ben? Where was Jacob in that decision? Unless we figure out that Jacob actually caused the 815 crash and therefore causing most of those passengers' deaths, I don't know what we can definitively place on Jacob's shoulders that is 'evil'. I think conning Locke and having his man Ben kill him is evil. I've never liked Locke right from the beginning, but even I felt sorry for the guy when he was killed.

Yep, the Locke con is pretty evil, as is Lockeness's mockery of John's last thoughts. Still, the last few episodes have suggested that Jacob brought the candidates to the island- in that sense, he would be responsible for the crash of flight 815, even if Desmond actually caused the crash.

And I agree that most of the Others' actions in the first three seasons were Ben's decisions, not Jacob's. Still, Jacob seems pretty omniscient. Perhaps it will be cleared up later in the season how much control Jacob likes to exert over events- perhaps he just gives things a little nudge, and so things like the plane crash aren't so much his fault after all. But if the Others are doing bad shit in his name, you'd think that he might say something. Then again, Jacob seems to be an awful communicator. Hell, the Others' in general are awful communicators, even amongst themselves. Screw fertility doctors, they should be getting someone in to ease up the workplace enviornment.

[Scion of Valyria]

I must, as I've said before, side with the whole "there are no good guys and bad guys" thing. Jacob isn't a good guy. He didn't give a shit about Ben and was fine to let Ben go through his mass murder, because in the end, it serves his purpose. Jacob just wants to protect the Island, Smokey just wants to break free of the Island. It's shades of gray, not black and white. They're merely using everyone else as pawns to achieve their goals.

Also, lest we ignore this, each of the numbered characters seems to be getting one episode before it just pushes forward with the Island story. No other way it'd work out. So far, we've seen the Kate, Locke, and Jack all had (subjectively, of course) better lives. Locke's with the lady he loves and on good terms with his father. Jack has gotten over his daddy issues and is actually being a pretty good father. Kate gets away. From what I've seen, everyone's lives have been better without Jacob fucking with them. That's what I believe the flash-sideways are intended to show.

As to the cave...I'm thinking that was Smokey's. He's keeping track of the candidates, and crossing off those he eliminates and those who Jacob doesn't see fit. Why is he doing it? Because if Jacob finds his replacement, he's still going to be trapped. That's why the boy is telling him that he "knows the rules" and can't kill "him." Smokey can't kill a candidate unless Jacob crosses 'em off first. Them's the rules.

[Mya Stone]

Sorry to interrupt the awesomeness, here, but AG, the Jack episode from S1 was called White Rabbit, which still fits in with the Alice in Wonderland theme of Jack's episodes.

Carry on, I'll pipe in when I read what's been said before me. :P

[Mya Stone]

Sorry to double post, but I tend to think that it was more ambiguous on whether or not Richard was truly in the dark regarding candidates. I believe all he said was "A candidate?" not "What's a candidate?" and Flocke jumped over the statement as he was in the dark. I also tend to think that if he is in the dark, it's because "candidates" do not necessarily have any bearing on what Richard's job entails, as the advisor/Panchen Lama to the leader of the followers of Jacob. Dogen seems to be more in charge of the people who directly follow Jacob, and would know that there would be a replacement eventually, etc.

As far as Kate not having a number, she does have one. It's 51. I can't readily find a screencap, but it's available, as I saw it last night. Someone on the Fuselage mentioned that it is interesting that she is Sawyer's number mirror image (15/51). Whether there is some higher meaning to that, we'll see. It may just be a happy coincidence.

I'm at a loss for people who think that Jacob is "evil," per se. I actually loved him last night. Mark Pellegrino seems to be playing him with a hint of sadness, for lack of a better word, in his eyes. That he knows that what he's doing and that his game is causing these people pain, but he HAS to do it for the greater good. It's interesting when compared to Flocke's approach - he claims total honestly, but I'd liken him to more of a Trickster.

As far as Claire goes, Emilie De Ravin was just awesome last night. She was equal turns creepy, crazy, and sweet. I find many things with her situation interesting. Her parallel to Danielle is unquestionable, but what if TPTB wanted this role to be Danielle's from the beginning but couldn't due to the actress not wanting to be on the show/come back? I could see many ways that that would be true, as Danielle was allowed to live on the Island for many years without being touched by Smokey. And then there's her referring to Flocke as "my friend" and saying "that's not John" to Jin. Can she see through his facade and know his true face, or is she delusional and seeing something else? I'd like to think the former, and not the latter. Jin seems to be completely up shit's creek (as well as playing directly into Flocke's hands, since he wants to attack the Temple, and now has Claire to potentially break the ash circle around it for him). I worry for his fate, seriously.

I really enjoyed the episode, but then again, I've never been a Jack hater (I'm glaring at you, Kal). I also thought that Juliet could possibly be David's mother - this much I'm sure, I don't think she'll be some random person. I loved Hurley in this episode, but I always love Hurley. I honestly thought that the mirror would show scenes of the Parallel universe, and maybe it does...I think it's interesting that in the things we were shown, 2 of the 3 were the places where Jacob touched the Losties, but not in Jack's case.

[red snow]

I was also starting to wonder whether the Claire/Danielle parallels were a desperate grafting of Danielle's story onto Claire in order to see the rest of Danielle's story pan out too. I think with the parallel worlds they have some lee-way to pull it off. That and the fact that this is maybe smoley's MO and he's just repeating it with another woman on her own who lost a child.

I can't remember exactly when Hurley became the voice of the fans but it's at least since mid season 3. I loved the "maybe we travel back in time and become the skeletons" scene, which most lost fans have discussed. I also like his comments on reminiscing about wandering around the jungle clueless. The bit about the lighthouse was a stretch but at least, through Hurley, they are admitting "look we pulled it out our ass but it'll be cool"

Whether Jacob is good or not, he is still an annoying sod as he has no right to screw around with people's lives like he has. He is no better than Smokey and at least Smokey is pretending to be upfront rather than being annoyingly enigmatic. The whole, "ah, but maybe i wanted JAck to smash the mirror" had me wishing Jack could have taken the telescope to Jacob. Speaking of which, I wonder if that has magical powers beyond making things look bigger.

[Mya Stone]

Hmmm....Entertainment Weekly's Doc Jensen had an interesting thought about the Lighthouse's purpose.

I think it's the thing that Lighthouse mirrors were designed to show him. Hurley and Jack got it wrong. The Lighthouse doesn't cast light outward. It casts light inward, and reveals the state of your heart. For Jack Shephard, his heart is still locked up in his childhood home, his father's house, his past, and he won't be free and realized until he leaves all of it behind.

Interesting thought, that. I like it. It also explains why we saw Jin and Sun's wedding place, and Sawyer's church - Jin and Sun's hearts are intertwined, and Sawyer's heart and pain can be traced back to burying his parents.

[Isis]

Edit: And I know that lots of fans are pissed off that Jack broke the mirror. I thought it was an awesome scene. I don't know about you guys, but if I had gone through all the shit Jack has gone through, found out that the entire time a guy named Jacob had essentially orchestrated it all, and Jacob didn't even show up to answer my questions, I'd be pretty pissed too and would not be thinking rationally. Although most fans seem to dislike him, 90% of the time I recgonize that the decisions Jack makes are the ones I'd make to; he doesn't have the context we do, and the fact that his decisions sometimes end badly is not usually his fault (though the Incident was not the brightest move).

I agree with this completely. That scene made total sense to me. I don't get why people would be pissed off about it. :unsure: Because he wasn't doing what he was told to? Man, fuck doing what you're told to!

[Werthead]

I agree with this completely. That scene made total sense to me. I don't get why people would be pissed off about it. :unsure: Because he wasn't doing what he was told to? Man, fuck doing what you're told to!

For some reason this made me think of Jack doing a cover version of RATM's 'Killing in the Name' with Locke joining in to bellow, "DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!" every now and then :stunned:

[Werthead]

That's an interesting one:

Not really a spoiler, more that the next episode is apparently a homage to:

High Noon. UnLocke faces down the Temple crew, as the previews showed.

[Myrddin]

Did anyone else pick up that Claire referred to Christian and the Lockness Monster as two different people?

Is that because Smokey can't be Christian anymore because he took Locke's form or because there is more than one Smokey?

I can't believe there's only 11 episodes left...

[Guest Raidne]

So who is this Wallace that they were supposed to see when they turned the dial to 108?

[denstorebog]

So who is this Wallace that they were supposed to see when they turned the dial to 108?

I'll give you a hint:

FREEEEDOOOOOOOM!

Man, that would be awesome, and totally within the context of the islanders wanting to either get free of the island or of the game.

[Guest Raidne]

They just don't make emoticons that laugh hard enough for that.

[Myrddin]

I'll give you a hint:

FREEEEDOOOOOOOM!

Man, that would be awesome, and totally within the context of the islanders wanting to either get free of the island or of the game.

Heh When I heard "Wallace" I did wonder if Hurley meant our favorite Scotsman, Desmond. :)

[The Pita]

The only reason I was upset when Jack smashed the mirror is because I really wanted to see what would happen when 108 was chosen.