Is Sansa going to die?

[Alia of the knife]

And this is where the conversation goes off the rails.....

OF COURSE SHE CHANGES, THEY ALL CHANGE, it's the how thats the question. :leaving:

[Éadaoin]

Yes, she's going to die. I think most characters in this series eventually will. ;)

[Wouter]

NO, but it does point to the fact there are consequences to the decisions and choices that she's made, and hopefully it teaches her to look closer beneath the "shiny, pretty" things for the actual truth and use wisdom for a better future.

But when Sansa does look beneath the "shiny, pretty" things, you fail to give her credit for doing so. What about the Hound, is he shiny and pretty? Is Dontos, whom she rescued and liked? What about Mya Stone, a bastard girl who tends mules? It didn't stop Sansa from bonding with all of those.

And what about Willas? While you attack her because she was willing to go along there, I think it showed growth in Sansa that she was willing to marry a cripple she had never seen and who was quite a bit older than her, only to escape Joffrey's clutches. Especially considering that as wife of the Tyrell heir, Sansa could have influenced Tyrell future policies to be ... Stark-tolerant.

Marrying Willas was not exactly a childhood dream ideal for her though, far from it.

And my book ended with her being a most willing pupil of LF teachings

Most willing? Sansa is conflicted about Marillion, doesn't want LF's kisses and she doesn't want to marry again. When LF tells about his grand scheme for her, he is obviously disappointed by her distinct lack of enthusiasm (lemoncakes would have been received way better than a betrothal to Hary the Heir). To what extent Sansa is on board with LF remains to be seen.

the Tyrells were servants raised to power by the Tarygaryens when they turned on their masters. [...]

It's called irony, and the Tyrells are just a better Branded and saner version of the Lannsisters.

I don't recall the Tyrells turning on their masters; the Gardener kings died on the field of fire and IIRC the stewards were raised up instead, but their old masters were gone already at that point. Surrendering to and cooperating with the Targs was a logical action given the circumstances (the Starks and Arryns did so, too).

The Tyrells, or at least Mace and Loras, are ambitious. However, they have not shown the level of cruelty that the Lannisters have displayed nor the caustic family atmosphere that permeates Tywin and his close kin. I think the Tyrells are closer to the Tullys, as Hoster Tully was quite the opportunist himself (and not unwilling to destroy a village or two, allthough he probably did not go to the same lengths as Tywin did).

Margaery is not a saint, but she is not like Cersei either.

[1234567]

She could be killed by Ser Robert Strong if Cersei finds out where she is.

There was foreshadowing in her early chapters that Ser Ilyn might kill her, but other wise she's our only POV in the Vale, so she's here for a while at least.

[Kittykatknits]

I agree. Not that I feel she is totally out of danger, but Sansa to me seems like a character that is meant to only come really into play after the Others have been defeated and most of the succession wars have been done with.

I sometimes describe Sansa's character as GRRM playing the long(er) game than with some of the other individuals within the series. Some exist for the Game we see now, some for the Others, and then there are those needed for what comes after. That is Sansa. There was a bit of discussion in the p2p thread that explrored the Bran/Sansa dynamic that, combined with the snow castle scene, made me think of Sansa in a Builder role.

Some of these arguments blaming an 11 year old girl for being starry-eyed, confirmist and obedient are almost insane.

Face it geeks, she changes, she's meant to change, and your reaction to her is meant to change. You don't have to fall in love with her, but you have to acknowledge that she is changing and growing.

Sansa and Dany are both learners, you are privileged to see two young minds expanding here.

And never forget, for all her faults, Sansa is still a Stark, still of the North, still of the direwolf. If she hadn't had some spine, she'd have been long dead.

But when Sansa does look beneath the "shiny, pretty" things, you fail to give her credit for doing so. What about the Hound, is he shiny and pretty? Is Dontos, whom she rescued and liked? What about Mya Stone, a bastard girl who tends mules? It didn't stop Sansa from bonding with all of those.

And what about Willas? While you attack her because she was willing to go along there, I think it showed growth in Sansa that she was willing to marry a cripple she had never seen and who was quite a bit older than her, only to escape Joffrey's clutches. Especially considering that as wife of the Tyrell heir, Sansa could have influenced Tyrell future policies to be ... Stark-tolerant.

Marrying Willas was not exactly a childhood dream ideal for her though, far from it.

Most willing? Sansa is conflicted about Marillion, doesn't want LF's kisses and she doesn't want to marry again. When LF tells about his grand scheme for her, he is obviously disappointed by her distinct lack of enthusiasm (lemoncakes would have been received way better than a betrothal to Hary the Heir). To what extent Sansa is on board with LF remains to be seen.

I don't recall the Tyrells turning on their masters; the Gardener kings died on the field of fire and IIRC the stewards were raised up instead, but their old masters were gone already at that point. Surrendering to and cooperating with the Targs was a logical action given the circumstances (the Starks and Arryns did so, too).

The Tyrells, or at least Mace and Loras, are ambitious. However, they have not shown the level of cruelty that the Lannisters have displayed nor the caustic family atmosphere that permeates Tywin and his close kin. I think the Tyrells are closer to the Tullys, as Hoster Tully was quite the opportunist himself (and not unwilling to destroy a village or two, allthough he probably did not go to the same lengths as Tywin did).

Margaery is not a saint, but she is not like Cersei either.

See, it's posts like these that make me miss the like button. Wouter, agree with everything but want to add a point on LF. She thinks to herself that she doesn't trust him, relfects that he never did anything in KL to help her, and that if she had anywhere to go that she would leave. Hardly the thoughts of a most willing pupil.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

It'll be a cruel let down if she does die before she does anything of significance.

[Newstar]

It'll be a cruel let down if she does die before she does anything of significance.

For real. As someone pointed out on another thread, though, it does feel as if GRRM is keeping her in a bit of a "holding pattern" until she's ready to do the big important thing she's been trained all series long to do, whether it's get rid of Littlefinger, or whether it's that and something else (rallying the North/Vale/Riverlands, shutting down Cersei once and for all, etc.). So I think she will live long enough to accomplish that thing of significance.

If that's true, the only question is whether she'll survive once she's done that "thing." That's up in the air.

She thinks to herself that she doesn't trust him, relfects that he never did anything in KL to help her, and that if she had anywhere to go that she would leave. Hardly the thoughts of a most willing pupil.

Well, yes and no. You have to look at the time frame for these thoughts. These thoughts are not her last word in AFFC on the matter; they're not from the last Alayne POV.

You also have to look at the context of these thoughts that you're referencing. At the time, she runs through this mental exercise where she wrestles with the idea that Littlefinger has two personas, "Petyr" (all positive associations there, warm, funny, gentle, her protector, etc.) and "Littlefinger" (sly, devious, no friend). She then runs through a list of all the people who helped her, and concludes that Littlefinger never lifted a finger in KL to help her. However, she immediately qualifies that with "Except to get me out. He did that for me" and then she goes on to conclude that "Petyr" and not the devious, sinister "Littlefinger" is in fact the real Littlefinger and the untrustworthy "Littlefinger" is only a mask. She's still wary at that point in AFFC, thinking she "might have fled them both, perhaps" (and the "perhaps" is important to note, too, so it's clear even now that she's got mixed feelings about leaving), but she concludes that the end of the day that she has "no true friend but Petyr," implying that she considers "Petyr" a "true friend."

Now, if Sansa/Alayne's POVs had stopped at that point in AFFC, I'd be more willing to agree that Sansa doesn't exactly seem like a willing pupil. However, if you look at her last POV chapter in AFFC, she has drunk the Kool-Aid. She parrots Littlefinger's phrases to herself. She respects Littlefinger's judgment and only starts putting up resistance when he floats the idea of marriage (understandably). She views him as brave. She seems very comfortable with acting as Littlefinger's lieutenant/pupil/accomplice/what have you. Whatever her stance earlier in the books--"I'll put up with this because I don't have any options and Petyr's the closest thing I have to a friend, and I'll lie to him to keep him happy"--she now seems much more willing, much more compliant, much more admiring and respectful of Petyr, and much more tolerant of Petyr's weird attentions (kissing her wrist, pulling her onto his lap, only "blushing" when he kisses her deeply and not having any internal negative reaction or fear to this type of behaviour). In short, she seems much more "willing" in general and much happier to be his pupil/assistant/lieutenant, much more so than her earlier POVs. She thinks of him Petyr in her last Alayne POV almost exclusively. So I think it's a bit misleading to refer to her attitude in her earlier POV as if it hasn't changed since that point, since it has. That would have been much clearer had Littlefinger chosen not to broach the subject of a marriage, which is probably the one thing Sansa seems to wish to fight him on or question him on at that point, but even then her protests seem pretty feeble given how violent her internal reaction is to marriage. It's probably a good thing that he brought it up, since Littlefinger trying to foist an unwanted marriage on her might be the one thing that snaps her out of her current mindset, especially if she realizes that Sweetrobin's life is at stake.

[Florina Laufeyson]

For real. As someone pointed out on another thread, though, it does feel as if GRRM is keeping her in a bit of a "holding pattern" until she's ready to do the big important thing she's been trained all series long to do, whether it's get rid of Littlefinger, or whether it's that and something else (rallying the North/Vale/Riverlands, shutting down Cersei once and for all, etc.). So I think she will live long enough to accomplish that thing of significance.

If that's true, the only question is whether she'll survive once she's done that "thing." That's up in the air.

Totes.

We didnt sit through four books of her POV, where shes like "ummm oh gods..." for no reason. Sansa is gonna do something. Something humongous. And it will be glorious!

Personally, i think she will take down Littlefinger in a pretty kick ass manner. Such as beating him at his own game. When this happens, i will be doing Snoopy Dances everywhere.

But yeah, after her shining moment of supreme awesome, all bets are off. You just never know.

[Peter George Stewart]

And this is where the conversation goes off the rails.....

OF COURSE SHE CHANGES, THEY ALL CHANGE, it's the how thats the question. :leaving:

No they don't all change. Joffrey didn't change, Cersei doesn't change. Ned never changed. Cat never changed. Arya hasn't changed (just been tempered and hardened in her convictions). Just like in real life, some of the characters learn and grow and others don't and some are inbetween (e.g. Jaimie, Tyrion). But Sansa and Dany are the pre-eminent learners in the series. Their characters definitely change over time as they learn more.

[Waylin Stark]

No, not likely. She's the only Stark involved in the politics game, and she provides the necessary POV in the Vale regarding LF's plans.

[juanml82]

Will Sansa care about Sweetrobin's life? Or at least enough to risk herself? She takes care of him, but the kid bothers her, and he is an obstacle, for her, for Littlefinger, for the Vale and, potentially, for the Starks. Even more, in the long run, he's not even going to be a competent ruler.

Also, I'm not sure she'll want to dispatch 'Petyr' right away. Not only she's turning friendly to him but also she can learn to dominate him, by seducing him. And their goals - once Sansa clearly defines which are hers - might be concurrent for a while.

I don't know. Sansa is being taught about courtly intrigue and, just maybe, something about leadership by Littlefinger and, to a degree, Cersei. And she can be thought to be cold hearted in her thoughts - or she just doesn't want to think in all the painful memories. She hardly remembes Arya, Jeyne or Septa Mordane, for instance. I don't think she would be a cruel ruler, if she manages to rule which I think she will, but I can picture her as a rather Machiavellian ruler.

OTOH, if we look at 'sweet'robin's behaviour, specially during Tyrion's trial, the kid is a slightly less cruel Joffrey in the making.

Also, I wouldn't put too much in the prophetic meanings, or not, of Lady dying. Sansa's arc has no place for a direwolf, so the wolf had to go.

[Raksha the Demon]

I sometimes describe Sansa's character as GRRM playing the long(er) game than with some of the other individuals within the series. Some exist for the Game we see now, some for the Others, and then there are those needed for what comes after. That is Sansa. There was a bit of discussion in the p2p thread that explrored the Bran/Sansa dynamic that, combined with the snow castle scene, made me think of Sansa in a Builder role.

See, it's posts like these that make me miss the like button. Wouter, agree with everything but want to add a point on LF. She thinks to herself that she doesn't trust him, relfects that he never did anything in KL to help her, and that if she had anywhere to go that she would leave. Hardly the thoughts of a most willing pupil.

Where did the like button go? :frown5: I thought there was something wrong with my connection/computer? Anyway, enjoying the discussion; not responding much because others are saying what I would say with more precision .

[PrinceHenryris]

Why do most of the people who want to give Sansa the excuse of being young insist on hating Dany?

[Lyanna Stark]

No they don't all change. Joffrey didn't change, Cersei doesn't change. Ned never changed. Cat never changed. Arya hasn't changed (just been tempered and hardened in her convictions). Just like in real life, some of the characters learn and grow and others don't and some are inbetween (e.g. Jaimie, Tyrion). But Sansa and Dany are the pre-eminent learners in the series. Their characters definitely change over time as they learn more.

I strongly disagree that Arya hasn't changed. She has changed a lot, and done a lot of growing up similar to Sansa and Dany. It's not giving Arya's character credit to say she is just the same. Arya of AGOT and Arya of ADWD are as different as Dany or Sansa during the same time span.

Cat is also interesting since I think she changes too. At first she is mostly content within the traditional role of wife and mother, but towards the end she really chafes within that role, and she does things that completely goes against "duty" for personal reasons (releasing Jaime in a desperate attempt to get her daughters back, for instance).

[David Selig]

I would say that Cat becoming an undead is a pretty big change, but maybe it's just me. :cool4:

[Roza Ahai]

Why do most of the people who want to give Sansa the excuse of being young insist on hating Dany?

Probably because Sansa is not so arrogant as Dany is. "I am a dragon and Mother of the dragons" is really very annoying. Dany is also on top of society. She has dragons, power, and army, and she is still not capable to rule in the Slavers Bay. Sansa has nothing at this moment, no wolfes, no power, no army and she learns how to handle Robin.

[Peter George Stewart]

Why do most of the people who want to give Sansa the excuse of being young insist on hating Dany?

I don't, I think they're both wonderful characters :)

[1234567]

I don't, I think they're both wonderful characters :)

Me too. I like them both.

[Wouter]

She could be killed by Ser Robert Strong if Cersei finds out where she is.

I concur that "ser robert" is the most likely threat to Sansa's life. I fear for Margaery, too.

I sometimes describe Sansa's character as GRRM playing the long(er) game than with some of the other individuals within the series. Some exist for the Game we see now, some for the Others, and then there are those needed for what comes after. That is Sansa. There was a bit of discussion in the p2p thread that explrored the Bran/Sansa dynamic that, combined with the snow castle scene, made me think of Sansa in a Builder role.

Agreed.Sansa quite often seems to be associated with (re)building, much like Bran is. Those two also seem to be the most forgiving Starks (Sansa with Lancel/Tyrion/Margaery, Bran with Theon for example).

For real. As someone pointed out on another thread, though, it does feel as if GRRM is keeping her in a bit of a "holding pattern" until she's ready to do the big important thing she's been trained all series long to do, whether it's get rid of Littlefinger, or whether it's that and something else (rallying the North/Vale/Riverlands, shutting down Cersei once and for all, etc.). So I think she will live long enough to accomplish that thing of significance.

As said above, I rather see Sansa involved in picking up the pieces after the wars, caring for the food situation and such. While she may well be the one who brings down LF (or at least is involved in that), I don't think she will be the one to "shut down" Cersei. There is a long list of candidates for the latter, and we know that Cersei will probably first lose all her children (I don't see Sansa threatening Tommen nor Myrcella) and then be finished off by a (male) "younger brother" - quite possibly Jaime.

Will Sansa care about Sweetrobin's life? Or at least enough to risk herself? She takes care of him, but the kid bothers her, and he is an obstacle, for her, for Littlefinger, for the Vale and, potentially, for the Starks. Even more, in the long run, he's not even going to be a competent ruler.

Also, I'm not sure she'll want to dispatch 'Petyr' right away. Not only she's turning friendly to him but also she can learn to dominate him, by seducing him. And their goals - once Sansa clearly defines which are hers - might be concurrent for a while.

I don't know. Sansa is being taught about courtly intrigue and, just maybe, something about leadership by Littlefinger and, to a degree, Cersei. And she can be thought to be cold hearted in her thoughts - or she just doesn't want to think in all the painful memories. She hardly remembes Arya, Jeyne or Septa Mordane, for instance. I don't think she would be a cruel ruler, if she manages to rule which I think she will, but I can picture her as a rather Machiavellian ruler.

OTOH, if we look at 'sweet'robin's behaviour, specially during Tyrion's trial, the kid is a slightly less cruel Joffrey in the making.

Also, I wouldn't put too much in the prophetic meanings, or not, of Lady dying. Sansa's arc has no place for a direwolf, so the wolf had to go.

Agreed on the direwolf - it would have to be killed in KL during the coup at the latest, anyway, can't have a captive with her own personal direwolf (Lady would have gone for Joffrey's/Meryn's/Boros' throats at the earliest opportunity). I also suspect GRRM wanted to remove the in-your-face part of the Stark magical qualities (in the present generation), so as to not constantly confront the southerners with Sansa's "heathen" northern origins.

Regarding LF, that's the main reason I want another Sansa chapter, badly. GRRM managed to write her final chapter in such a way that we don't get a sense of her reaction to LF's (veiled) threat on Sweetrobyn's life - only that she seemed to be surprised when LF insisted he "will" die.

Sansa's reactions to LF/Petyr have been confused (or are confusing to the reader, anyway) and it's true she seems to admire him to some extent. However, she made the decision in an earlier chapter to play his loyal daughter and maybe she plays that out by living the lie to a large extent. I can barely wait to find out what will come of this particular storyline.

Where did the like button go? :frown5: I thought there was something wrong with my connection/computer?

The "reputation table" was responsible for the recent crash of the forum. So the "like" button had to go for the time being.

Why do most of the people who want to give Sansa the excuse of being young insist on hating Dany?

AFAIK most of those who like Sansa also tend to like Dany. And I have the impression that quite a few of those who are the most vocal against Dany also hate Sansa.

It's a shame that there tend to be groups on the forum nowadays, with a "us vs them" mentality. I like both Jon and Dany, but there are times that's almost a crime on this forum as many who like one now seem to automatically hate the other (for being competition as the "main hero" or something like that).

[PrinceHenryris]

Probably because Sansa is not so arrogant as Dany is. "I am a dragon and Mother of the dragons" is really very annoying. Dany is also on top of society. She has dragons, power, and army, and she is still not capable to rule in the Slavers Bay. Sansa has nothing at this moment, no wolfes, no power, no army and she learns how to handle Robin.

Sansa started the story with a whole lot more than Dany. She was the daughter of one of the most powerful lords in Westeros.

Dany was sold to a Dothraki warlord. She turned that into giving birth to dragons and gaining an army.