Enlightening essays on Dany and Jon- ADWD (New Jon essay)

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Good essays, but the author is wrong about not killing the child hostages = Meereen will work with Dany. Dany says that green grace wants her to marry a Merreen noble in her first chapter

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I´m not sure i like Dany´s change.. Blood and fire will only take you so far..

[aceluby]

I´m not sure i like Dany´s change.. Blood and fire will only take you so far..

Yeah... because the last time it only got her family 300 years of rule when the resorted to blood and fire, and that's just unacceptable...

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Yeah... because the last time it only got her family 300 years of rule when the resorted to blood and fire, and that's just unacceptable...

What?

Aegon secured the seven kingdoms and built institutions by negotiating with the existent nobility. That is why the Targaryens ruled westeros, by being willing to accept a place in society for the pre-existent lords of the seven kingdoms.

Which is what dany has been trying to do in ADWD, but suddenly changed her mind (according to these essays). Now peace apparently doesn´t satisfy her.

[PatrickStormborn]

What?

Aegon secured the seven kingdoms and built institutions by negotiating with the existent nobility. That is why the Targaryens ruled westeros, by being willing to accept a place in society for the pre-existent lords of the seven kingdoms.

Which is what dany has been trying to do in ADWD, but suddenly changed her mind (according to these essays). Now peace apparently doesn´t satisfy her.

But what do you think happened to the lords and ladies who went into open rebellion? With the exception of Dorne, they were defeated... with fire and blood.

The lesson Dany learns at the end of ADwD is to win peace on her own terms through fire and blood. For example, let's imagine she had killed the hostages she had taken, leading to the Sons of the Harpy attacks stopping. After that, Dany would be able to face a war against Yunkai (the only reason she couldn't was because of the insurgency) and once again crush its slave trade before making another peace.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

But what do you think happened to the lords and ladies who went into open rebellion? With the exception of Dorne, they were defeated... with fire and blood.

The lesson Dany learns at the end of ADwD is to win peace on her own terms through fire and blood. For example, let's imagine she had killed the hostages she had taken, leading to the Sons of the Harpy attacks stopping. After that, Dany would be able to face a war against Yunkai (the only reason she couldn't was because of the insurgency) and once again crush its slave trade before making another peace.

Yes, Aegon had to show the overwhelming force that dragons can achieve in a battlefield in order to win the 7k. Most of the smart Lords and ladies decided to protect their holdings and bend the knee. But this is not a cheap conquest for Aegon, he is also compromising by confirming these lord´s lands and titles.

Between a Lord Paramount and a King of one of the seven kingdoms, there is not much difference. Aegon was willing to let these lords keep their power, or most of it. Each of the constituent regions of westeros would still be ruled by their own lords.

Aegon´s conquest was a mixture of Fire and blood, and political compromise. He would have preferred to put local governors chosen by him to replace the old nobility. His loyal people for instance, with blood of old valyria, like he did in the crownlands, or Storm´s End. But he was smart enough to understand violence (dragons, since he had no army) can win a battle, but it can´t rule seven kingdoms. Good luck putting rulers without local legitimacy to hold each corner of the realm. They would face endless asymmetric warfare (where dragons are of no use).

If that is the lesson she learns at the end of ADWD I would be very worried for the future of the 7k. Killing hostages will never be an effective measure in asymmetric conflicts like the one she faces with the Harpy.

The whole point of hostages is to threaten a well-known, well identified, enemy. The Harpy is not an example of such enemies.

Theon is a hostage, to avoid another rebellion of Balon Greyjoy, not the iron islands. If Balon Greyjoy would be removed and replaced by another house, Theon would be useless as a hostage.

I agree with the author, of the essays, killing the hostages would most certainly enrage the nobility even more.

So no, killing the hostages would complicate even more the situation within her city walls. Once she decided to build a city in which there is a place for the old nobility, then there is no such thing as peace “on her own terms”. Peace by logic definition is a compromise of each party. Dany needed to give something in return for peace, and she agreed. Where the terms irrational?

I should reread the ADWD chapters, but I don´t think the nobles were asking for that much. They were willing to accept the end of slavery in exchange for a place at the table.

[GoldenFleece]

Just read the essays, what a fantastic read, always good to get another angle on Meereen. I never quite considered the Shavepate as the poisoner, so that was welcome, even though I am not sure what he could acheive if Daenerys died, since all his power was derived through her. I am confident that in the future the Meereen chapters will be given new respect as good story telling, just like TFFC is now being given respect.

[GoldenFleece]

If she's to win, innocents must die. She doesn't have to order mass executions, but if her armies are to survive, crops and livestock must be taken from the Smallfolk; towns that resist her must be taken by storm, or starved into submission; districts that resist her must be frightened into seeing the error of their ways. The men she commands to do such things will murder, rob, and rape, as they carry out her orders.

I think it's more a case of a leader having to be prepared to sacrifice others to achieve their own ambitions. What Dany has sometimes acknowledged, and sometimes shied away from, is the fact that to achieve her ambitions, innocents must suffer.

It's a wonderful set of essays. I don't think Dany will ever become the sort of person who'd take delight in seeing the sort of sights she witnessed when the Lhazareen town was sacked, or would specifically order atrocities against those she thinks are innocent. But, I could foresee her witnessing such sights, shrugging, and walking on by. And, perhaps anybody who wants to win the Game of Thrones has to be that sort of person.

Well I am afraid in any war, no matter how good the cause the innocents will suffer. World War II is probably the most "good" war waged in recent times, yet Allied bmombs killed German children just as much as vice versa and I am sure Allied soliders shrugged their shoulders when seeing dead civilians on their marches - you kind of have to or else you would not cope.

Just like Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark, innocent people will suffer through Daenerys ambition. The trick is to temper ruthlessness with clemency. Daenerys was not meant to be a goody-two-shoes fantasy mary sue character and I am glad she is not.

[Wise Fool]

Fantastic essays. I find them quite persuasive as regards to the Shavepate and Dany's character arc overall and, well, everything really.

It's weird. I always had a vague sense of distrust about Shavepate... yet I believed him utterly. I mean the dude shaved his head! You can always trust folks with the cue-ball look amiright? And yet that's exactly how people wind up being pawns in some other player's scheme. They wind up, despite all reason and evidence, seeming to be the good guys that you can trust, even as they manipulate you into moving against their enemies and advancing their agendas.

[RandomStark]

The news of more essays is great! Havent yet read the newest chapter but the first four have been awesome. I too found Dany's Meereen plot a bit cardboard so this helps it in my eyes. The Shavepate being responsible for the poisoning is something I'm now fully on board with, considering I'd never even considered it before. Same goes for Hizdahr and GG/The Harpy making a peace of sorts. Also for whatever reason, I mentally downplayed Dany's arc in her final few chapters for some reason. I sensed a shift but didnt notice the return of the fire and blood, like a moron. I think her bumping into the Dothraki ended up stealing my mind space. But all in all, it goes to show how switched off I was in her chapters, embarrassingly enough lol.

[MoIaF]

Well I am afraid in any war, no matter how good the cause the innocents will suffer. World War II is probably the most "good" war waged in recent times, yet Allied bmombs killed German children just as much as vice versa and I am sure Allied soliders shrugged their shoulders when seeing dead civilians on their marches - you kind of have to or else you would not cope.

Just like Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark, innocent people will suffer through Daenerys ambition. The trick is to temper ruthlessness with clemency. Daenerys was not meant to be a goody-two-shoes fantasy mary sue character and I am glad she is not.

Great observation!

I was thinking about what Quaithe said to Dany:

"To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

I wonder if this "darkening" of Dany's character will be to show her embracing ruthlessness towards her enemies yet eventually learning to temper it with clemency.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes, Aegon had to show the overwhelming force that dragons can achieve in a battlefield in order to win the 7k. Most of the smart Lords and ladies decided to protect their holdings and bend the knee. But this is not a cheap conquest for Aegon, he is also compromising by confirming these lord´s lands and titles.

Between a Lord Paramount and a King of one of the seven kingdoms, there is not much difference. Aegon was willing to let these lords keep their power, or most of it. Each of the constituent regions of westeros would still be ruled by their own lords.

Aegon´s conquest was a mixture of Fire and blood, and political compromise. He would have preferred to put local governors chosen by him to replace the old nobility. His loyal people for instance, with blood of old valyria, like he did in the crownlands, or Storm´s End. But he was smart enough to understand violence (dragons, since he had no army) can win a battle, but it can´t rule seven kingdoms. Good luck putting rulers without local legitimacy to hold each corner of the realm. They would face endless asymmetric warfare (where dragons are of no use).

If that is the lesson she learns at the end of ADWD I would be very worried for the future of the 7k. Killing hostages will never be an effective measure in asymmetric conflicts like the one she faces with the Harpy.

The whole point of hostages is to threaten a well-known, well identified, enemy. The Harpy is not an example of such enemies.

Theon is a hostage, to avoid another rebellion of Balon Greyjoy, not the iron islands. If Balon Greyjoy would be removed and replaced by another house, Theon would be useless as a hostage.

I agree with the author, of the essays, killing the hostages would most certainly enrage the nobility even more.

So no, killing the hostages would complicate even more the situation within her city walls. Once she decided to build a city in which there is a place for the old nobility, then there is no such thing as peace on her own terms. Peace by logic definition is a compromise of each party. Dany needed to give something in return for peace, and she agreed. Where the terms irrational?

I should reread the ADWD chapters, but I don´t think the nobles were asking for that much. They were willing to accept the end of slavery in exchange for a place at the table.

it wast really political compromise cause they were afraid of the dragons

Aegon used fire and blood and spared those who bent the knee there werent any negotiations I believe he called the shots

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

it wast really political compromise cause they were afraid of the dragons

Aegon used fire and blood and spared those who bent the knee there werent any negotiations I believe he called the shots

They might be afraid to confront Aegon in open battle, but they could still attempt guerrilla style asymmetric strategies. Dorne did it with geographical advantages , but others could also try. The faith militant did it later, and lost because Maegor delegated the fight to local lords (again the importance of keeping the nobility happy), by paying bounties.

So holding a continent the size of South America, with only 3 dragons is impossible. Aegon knew this. His dragons are kind of Apache helicopters. Strong enough to take out an army in the battle field, but not nearly enough to actually rule scattered settlements over a huge territory.

He presented consistent terms to all the great lords and these were his political compromise. He would have preferred to reward his loyal servants with the lands of the late independent Seven Kingdoms, but realistically he had to keep the old nobility "happy".

I recommend this essay. The differences between William the conqueror and Aegon are important to the Post-conquest reality.

http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/02/19-hollow-crowns-deadly-thrones/index.html

Dany is trying a similar strategy at Meereen. How to keep the nobility in a privileged position while at the same time protecting her most important interests (ending slavery)

Besides there were negotiations.

He treated with Argilac, the stormking. Argilac offered his daughter and substantial lands as a dowry.

Lady Arryn offered herself in marriage in exchange of naming her son as heir to the 7k.

And Dorne also offered a marriege pact.

The king who knelt sent 3 maesters and his bastard brother to treat with aegon.

Aegon refused to marry to keep the blood pure.

Alternatively one could understand this decision as a need to be consistent with the terms offered to the nobility, since there can only be one heir. In order to keep consistent there must be no privileged offers.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

They might be afraid to confront Aegon in open battle, but they could still attempt guerrilla style asymmetric strategies. Dorne did it with geographical advantages , but others could also try. The faith militant did it later, and lost because Maegor delegated the fight to local lords (again the importance to keep the nobility happy), by paying bounties.

So holding a continent the size of South America, with only 3 dragons is impossible. Aegon knew this. His dragons are kind of Apache helicopters. Strong enough to take out an army in the battle field, but not nearly enough to actually rule scattered settlements over a huge territory.

He presented consistent terms to all the great lords and these were his political compromise. He would have preferred to reward his loyal servants with the lands of the late independent Seven Kingdoms, but realistically he had to keep the old nobility "happy".

I recommend this essay. The differences between William the conqueror and Aegon are important to the Post-conquest reality.

http://www.towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/02/19-hollow-crowns-deadly-thrones/index.html

Dany is trying a similar strategy at Meereen. How to keep the nobility in a privileged position while at the same time protecting her most important interests (ending slavery)

Besides there were negotiations.

He treated with Argilac, the stormking. Argilac offered his daughter and substantial lands as a dowry.

Lady Arryn offered herself in marriage in exchange of naming her son as heir to the 7k.

And Dorne also offered a marriege pact.

The king who knelt sent 3 maesters and his bastard brother to treat with aegon.

Aegon refused to marry to keep the blood pure.

Alternatively one could understand this decision as a need to be consistent with the terms offered to the nobility, since there can only be one heir. In order to keep consistent there must be no privileged offers.

yea he made some political compromises I remember like converting to the faith and aenys

I forgot :p

[Nictarion]

Daenerys was not meant to be a goody-two-shoes fantasy mary sue character and I am glad she is not.

Indeed! There really aren't any in the series. Jon and Sansa are probably the closest thing, but I wouldn't call them Mary Sue's.

[Ser Creighton]

Now if only we can get more people to read it... :idea:

Just call it a code, that seems to do the trick.

[Count Balerion]

I wonder if this "darkening" of Dany's character will be to show her embracing ruthlessness towards her enemies yet eventually learning to temper it with clemency.

I hope so.

Anyway, great essays. I've always felt dissatisfied with the view that Daenerys was an idiot and her reign in Mereen an unmitigated failure. This lays out the arguments against that view in detail, while also raising other interesting possibilities.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Very well presented ideas and adds depth of intrique where I had previously believed it to be lacking... though much of this is certainly a devil's advocate / looking for reasons method and reaches on some conclusions. I may not agree with all of it but on the whole it's exactly what I was looking for when I decided to peruse the web for more perspectives on the series.

"The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."

[Tyrion1991]

Very enlightening essays those. Certainly moved my perception slightly. Always felt they were filler and only going to go one way.

However I would add that Volantis and Victarion are coming, plus the constant building up of the Battle of Mereen made it feel as though it was always going to come down to a violent confrontation no matter what Dany did. Because of this there simply isn't any sense of suspense. I never felt Dany would stay on the path of peace, I was simply waiting for the change to take place.

There also isn't an appreciation for the fact that we have had five books of Dany in Essos. Because we've been waiting so long for her to move to Westeros it makes any detours through exploring war and peace in Essos frustrating and annoying. I don't think Martin fully understood this fact and how it would color the poor perception of Danys ADWD arc; as shown by the filler ACOK book.

On a final note. Clearly GRRM did put a LOT of effort into Danys arc. I can only imagine his dismay at its near universal slamming and the fact that peaceful Dany is seen as pathetic character regression. But at the same time, as a writer, you're kind of meant to make sure that the bulk of your readers get the point. Even simple things like the draft version where Dany says what she fears most is "myself". Thats far more direct and revealing about Danys position in a way that doesn't look like character regression/silly girl syndrome. I think all those re-writes didn't make things clear. My assumption on my reading of her in ADWD was that Dany was a bit like Ned Stark, her honour leading her to her own doom (however admirable) as this has been a salient point of the series that doing the right thing is often the path of weakness.

[Count Balerion]

Thinking about it last night, my initial reaction to Dany giving birth to dragons was that it was (literally) awesome. Now I wonder if I wasn't being set up, because the dragons were always going to be a problem. On the one hand, of course, Dany would never have obtained her army without them; on the other, it is difficult to be an effective ruler of a peaceful kingdom if you have dragons burning random people.

Hopefully, this ends with her learning to control and harness them, so she can use them without causing unintended mass death.