R+L=J v 67

[J. Stargaryen]

I posted this already in the Wow I Never Noticed that V.3 thread, but some people there seemed to write it off as coincidence. I don't think this is the case at all, even after sitting on it for a few days. In fact, I think it's par for the course for the type of symbolism, foreshadowing, hinting etc. that GRRM does. Anyway.

Black cats brought ill luck, as Rhaegar’s little girl had discovered in this very castle. She would have been my daughter, if the Mad King had not played his cruel jape on Father.

- AFfC, Cersei V

And later in the chapter...

If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

To me, this is a hint that Rhaegar had more than one son.

[addicted to snow]

Fabulous catch!

I had always suspected that the conversation between Benjen and Jon about it being a good thing he wasn't his father is the fact that Benjen might have gone to war for his birthright whereas Ned just hid him.

Are you suggesting that Benjen is privy to Jon's true parentage?

[Alia of the knife]

Are you suggesting that Benjen is privy to Jon's true parentage?

Yes.

[addicted to snow]

No one is arguing. I'm simply pointing out where you are wrong...

I encourage you to review post #249 & advise me where I am wrong, I want to know if need to alter, adjust, or altogether disregard the theories mentioned in post #249. I admit that these ideas do not fall into the fairy-tale ending that many are hoping for, but GRRM never promised us a fairy-tale ending.

[Alia of the knife]

I posted this already in the Wow I Never Noticed that V.3 thread, but some people there seemed to write it off as coincidence. I don't think this is the case at all, even after sitting on it for a few days. In fact, I think it's par for the course for the type of symbolism, foreshadowing, hinting etc. that GRRM does. Anyway.

- AFfC, Cersei V

And later in the chapter...

To me, this is a hint that Rhaegar had more than one son.

Agreed, and Kevan said something similar.

I think its also a sign of Cerseis overall delusion emphasized by a lifetime of Tywins teaching her to expect it along side blaming Elias health for ensuing events.

Both men she wanted because she initially wanted Roberts adoration, and both men loved the "wolf girl."

[addicted to snow]

IMHO, Hodor is a vessel for Bran, to allow him to become a knight as he had always dreamt. He will be a hedge knight like Dunk was, roaming free across the Westeros.

As for Jon, his warging abilities will be fully unlocked in a coma state, like it happened to Bran, or Jojen. As for compromising his morals, being the leader in a desperate fight against the Others will require tough choices on its own, and an ultimate challenge may be to warg a dragon.

Not enough books left for Bran to roam Westeros wearing Hodor's skin… Hodor has another purpose.

Jon's potential was unlocked in ACOKs when Bran to came to Jon in a dream & opened his 3rd eye…

Jon is not lacking in potential, he is lacking in knowledge - the knowledge of how to use that potential. I doubt this can be obtained while in a coma & it would seem un-natural if he awoke from a coma with a lot of new information/knowledge enabling himself to be a powerful warg.

Jon could hang out with Haggon for couple of books learning how to be a powerful warg, but GRRM is not going to re-show the same learning process that the audience has already seen through Bran's POV.

I feel like there is another catalysts that will accelerate Jon's development into a powerful warg. This catalysts is outlined in post #249...

[Lyse Stark]

Not enough books left for Bran to roam Westeros wearing Hodor's skin… Hodor has another purpose.

Jon's potential was unlocked in ACOKs when Bran to came to Jon in a dream & opened his 3rd eye…

Jon is not lacking in potential, he is lacking in knowledge - the knowledge of how to use that potential. I doubt this can be obtained while in a coma & it would seem un-natural if he awoke from a coma with a lot of new information/knowledge enabling himself to be a powerful warg.

Jon could hang out with Haggon for couple of books learning how to be a powerful warg, but GRRM is not going to re-show the same learning process that the audience has already seen through Bran's POV.

I feel like there is another catalysts that will accelerate Jon's development into a powerful warg. This catalysts is outlined in post #249...

Actually I feel that Jon knows the moral codes about warging from his time with the Wildings, and he will not do what Varamyr did. I see him as being power-hungry and sociopathic, and willing to steal others' animals for personal gain. But Jon will be much more aware of what the skinchanging taboos means for him because he probably know for a fact that they are there for a reason; to keep from becoming monsters like Varamyr in the first place.

[Fire Eater]

And I believe that Jon will be burdened with the difficult task of saving the realm, while Daenerys and FAegon will be entangled up in a petty squabble over the throne. She will win, but her victory will be pyrrhic in that when Jon shows up, the people will choose him over her because they despise her for what she did in the south during the DoTD 2.0 such as killing innocents to make a point, her perceived kinslaying and that she is the Mad King's daughter. I believe that the lords and the small folk still remember his madness, and they won't bend the knee to her because they fear that she may go the way of Aerys II.

Jon would also, not having been involved with the war, have no political enemies except Cersei, but everyone hates her anyway. Combined with dealing with the Others, being Rhaegar's son and having been raised by Ned, he will find making friends easy, especially amongst the smallfolk, since he will be the one who ends the war and not involved with their suffering.

[J. Stargaryen]

Teal'c just posted something really interesting in my The Moment When All the Smiles Died thread:

..."You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" [Daenerys] did not understand.

"No," [Jorah] answered. "Rhaegar." AGOT page 668

***

"If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives." Daenerys, AGOT, page 670.

An awesome catch.

[Ser Leftwich]

Teal'c just posted something really interesting in my The Moment When All the Smiles Died thread:

An awesome catch.

This would be massively indirect, as Jorah did not really know Rhaegar as a person. But it still has that "I am telling you how it actually is readers, just in a massively indirect way," GRRM way about it.

[J. Stargaryen]

This would be massively indirect, as Jorah did not really know Rhaegar as a person. But it still has that "I am telling you how it actually is readers, just in a massively indirect way," GRRM way about it.

I don't even think it's "massively indirect," tbh. I think that's how symbolism, foreshadowing, hints, etc. work.

Character A says that you're like your brother to character B. Character B tells others that they shouldn't rape women, but marry them if they want to bed them. So we can draw a conclusion about character B's brother; i.e., he wouldn't rape a woman, and he would probably marry her, if he wanted to bed her.

But you are correct that it's the author's way of speaking to the audience.

[Ser Leftwich]

Working on a project of choices I came across this little bit, which relates well with Dany being her brother's sister.

"Dany filled his wine cup again, wanting nothing so much as to pour the flagon over his head and drown his complacent smile. “Marriage or carnage. A wedding or a war. Are those my choices?” “I see only one choice, Your Radiance. Let us say our vows before the gods of Ghis and make a new Meereen together.”" ADwD p. 480

Potentially, Rhaegar ended up with marriage and carnage; a wedding and a war.

[FrozenFire3]

I don't even think it's "massively indirect," tbh. I think that's how symbolism, foreshadowing, hints, etc. work.

Character A says that you're like your brother to character B. Character B tells others that they shouldn't rape women, but marry them if they want to bed them. So we can draw a conclusion about character B's brother; i.e., he wouldn't rape a woman, and he would probably marry her, if he wanted to bed her.

But you are correct that it's the author's way of speaking to the audience.

I agree. It's one of those secret-smile-while-writing moments so tipically Martin. Same for the awesome catch on 'sons'.

[FrozenFire3]

Working on a project of choices I came across this little bit, which relates well with Dany being her brother's sister.

"Dany filled his wine cup again, wanting nothing so much as to pour the flagon over his head and drown his complacent smile. Marriage or carnage. A wedding or a war. Are those my choices? I see only one choice, Your Radiance. Let us say our vows before the gods of Ghis and make a new Meereen together." ADwD p. 480

Potentially, Rhaegar ended up with marriage and carnage; a wedding and a war.

And Lyanna ended up pouring wine over Benjen's head ;)

[Ygrain]

Not enough books left for Bran to roam Westeros wearing Hodor's skin… Hodor has another purpose.

Jon's potential was unlocked in ACOKs when Bran to came to Jon in a dream & opened his 3rd eye…

Jon is not lacking in potential, he is lacking in knowledge - the knowledge of how to use that potential. I doubt this can be obtained while in a coma & it would seem un-natural if he awoke from a coma with a lot of new information/knowledge enabling himself to be a powerful warg.

Jon could hang out with Haggon for couple of books learning how to be a powerful warg, but GRRM is not going to re-show the same learning process that the audience has already seen through Bran's POV.

I feel like there is another catalysts that will accelerate Jon's development into a powerful warg. This catalysts is outlined in post #249...

And why should he necessarily roam the Westeros in-books? It would be enough to hint that in the epilogue, and for that, there is space enough.

Jon doesn't realize that he should be able to slip in Ghost at will, and that is something that he can be told quite easily. Or, he can do so intuitively now that he is "dead".

Teal'c just posted something really interesting in my The Moment When All the Smiles Died thread:

"If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives." Daenerys, AGOT, page 670.

An awesome catch.

Really, how many times does it have to be hammered home that if you want to bed a woman, you ought to marry her? Craster, Robb and Jeyne, now Dany, plus Ned's musings that Rhaegar was not the type to frequent brothels and father bastards... indeed, GRRM speaking.

[addicted to snow]

Actually I feel that Jon knows the moral codes about warging from his time with the Wildings, and he will not do what Varamyr did. I see him as being power-hungry and sociopathic, and willing to steal others' animals for personal gain. But Jon will be much more aware of what the skinchanging taboos means for him because he probably know for a fact that they are there for a reason; to keep from becoming monsters like Varamyr in the first place.

& how do you propose that Jon will become "much more aware of what the skinchanging taboos means"?

It has taken Bran 3-4 books, to become reasonably proficient @ warging / skinchanging… How is Jon going to become a powerful warg / skinchanger in less than a book (assuming that his character is fully developed before A Dream of Spring, which is reasonable)? & How will Jon learn this stuff without GRRM re-covering the same stuff that he already has from Bran's POV (It would be poor writing to recover the same learning experiences for two different characters)?

There has to be some sort of catalysts & the one that I suggested also explains why GRRM gave such a detail backstory on Varamyr...

--

I'm asking for constructive criticism if you deem it to be warranted, I am not asking how You hope Jon's character develops. What you want or hope for is irrelevant. I was hoping that you could offer some textual examples of where the previous detailed theories of mine might be wrong.

[Ygrain]

It has taken Bran 3-4 books, to become reasonably proficient @ warging / skinchanging… How is Jon going to become a powerful warg / skinchanger in less than a book (assuming that his character is fully developed before A Dream of Spring, which is reasonable)? & How will Jon learn this stuff without GRRM re-covering the same stuff that he already has from Bran's POV (It would be poor writing to recover the same learning experiences for two different characters)?

There has to be some sort of catalysts & the one that I suggested also explains why GRRM gave such a detail backstory on Varamyr...

When Bran's arc starts, he has very little connection to Summer. Before his assassination, Jon is already connecting to Ghost strongly, though without conscious control, to the point that he is sometimes not able to distinguish between his own sensations and Ghost's. In other words, his skill is much more developed that Bran's was, without any training. Clearly then, making the leap that will allow him to warg consciously will not require to follow the same arc as Bran did.

Varamyr's backstory is already used in Bran warging Hodor (though this does not bar future use by other characters, and as all the Starks of the current generation are wargs, it can be any of them - e.g. Arya or Rickon might well be headed that way). Plus, it shows us what happens when a warg is killed, which, tying with Jon's last PoV, might imply that Jon's spirit will move into Ghost for some time, thus elegantly skipping the learning arc.

[addicted to snow]

And why should he necessarily roam the Westeros in-books? It would be enough to hint that in the epilogue, and for that, there is space enough.

Jon doesn't realize that he should be able to slip in Ghost at will, and that is something that he can be told quite easily. Or, he can do so intuitively now that he is "dead".

Are you joking? Warging Hodor is wrong & Bran knows it… The book is not going to end with Bran permanently warging Hodor as he walks off into the sunset to save distressed maidens...

--

Well, I'm inclined to believe that it is a bit more complicated than this. For example, it took Varamyr years if not decades to become the most powerful of all wargs. Bran describes the difficulties of it in his chapters… The act of Warging is something that is learned over time, through practice. It took Bran 2-3 tries to warg his first raven, despite having been a warg for quite some time.

If Jon is to become the Bad-Guy who accidentally / haphazardly / unintentionally provides resolution to this story (which deep down you know to be true, whether you will admit it or not), then he is the Night's King (just as Bran is Bran the Builder & Tyrion is Lann the Clever). Before it is all said & done, Jon will bind entire armies to his will, in the same way that Varamyr wore 6 skins. Like it or not, this is where the story is going. Hodor will be his primary skin, though I do think that he will eventually get his own body back as well. There is a reason that GRRM gave Hodor a large member & it is not so that Bran can have fun after saving innocent maidens, it is so that Jon can use it to rape people. Rape; however, will seem minimal compared to many of the deeds Jon will be credited with. Jon will not be able to control the voices in his head, but make no mistake the part of him that is Jon will still be good, Jon will Hate who he has become, & we the readers will sympathize with Jon. After supplying the story with resolution (which I do not have a theory on) Arya will stick him with the pointy end. History will probably not look favorably upon Jon. On the other hand, Jamie Lannister, will likely go down in history as the hero.

Can't you see what GRRM is doing? he's turning the character that everyone hated the most into the good-guy & the character that everyone loved into the bad-guy… & GRRM is going to make you like love it...

[Ygrain]

Are you joking? Warging Hodor is wrong & Bran knows it… The book is not going to end with Bran permanently warging Hodor as he walks off into the sunset to save distressed maidens...

--

Well, I'm inclined to believe that it is a bit more complicated than this. For example, it took Varamyr years if not decades to become the most powerful of all wargs. Bran describes the difficulties of it in his chapters… The act of Warging is something that is learned over time, through practice. It took Bran 2-3 tries to warg his first raven, despite having been a warg for quite some time.

If Jon is to become the Bad-Guy who accidentally / haphazardly / unintentionally provides resolution to this story (which deep down you know to be true, whether you will admit it or not), then he is the Night's King (just as Bran is Bran the Builder & Tyrion is Lann the Clever). Before it is all said & done, Jon will bind entire armies to his will, in the same way that Varamyr wore 6 skins. Like it or not, this is where the story is going. Hodor will be his primary skin, though I do think that he will eventually get his own body back as well. There is a reason that GRRM gave Hodor a large member & it is not so that Bran can have fun after saving innocent maidens, it is so that Jon can use it to rape people. Rape; however, will seem minimal compared to many of the deeds Jon will be credited with. Jon will not be able to control the voices in his head, but make no mistake the part of him that is Jon will still be good, Jon will Hate who he has become, & we the readers will sympathize with Jon. After supplying the story with resolution (which I do not have a theory on) Arya will stick him with the pointy end. History will probably not look favorably upon Jon. On the other hand, Jamie Lannister, will likely go down in history as the hero.

Can't you see what GRRM is doing? he's turning the character that everyone hated the most into the good-guy & the character that everyone loved into the bad-guy… & GRRM is going to make you like love it...

Too many bold claims for my liking here, I'm afraid.

[addicted to snow]

I posted this already in the Wow I Never Noticed that V.3 thread, but some people there seemed to write it off as coincidence. I don't think this is the case at all, even after sitting on it for a few days. In fact, I think it's par for the course for the type of symbolism, foreshadowing, hinting etc. that GRRM does. Anyway.

- AFfC, Cersei V

And later in the chapter...

To me, this is a hint that Rhaegar had more than one son.

It does seem to suggest that Rhaegar had more than one son. I guess it could also be taken to mean that Cersei herself had more than one son.

However, is it not very unlikely that Cersei would have known of any offspring produced from Rhaegar & this un-named 'Wolf Girl". Even if Cersei did somehow know that such offspring existed, how would she know the sex of said offspring?

Next, you guys/girls will be claiming that you know the identity of this allusive "Wolf Girl"… (that was a joke, haha)...

--

Here are my feelings on the R+L=J Theory… & I do realize that there is a fair, if not good chance that I am wrong on this...

Personally, I do not believe that R+L=J will have any future bearing on the story. Furthermore, I do not expect that GRRM will ever answer this mystery to the extent that will satisfy R+L=J fans.

Why would GRRM do this?

So that the 67 installments of this thread become 67,000… so that high school students & college students alike will be writing papers titled "Who is Jon Snow" for centuries to come, so that people will argue over R+L=J for as long as there are people alive to argue it...

To What Purpose?

GRRM stands to gain Free Publicity for Forever… It will make GRRM as famous as a writer possibly can be…

If I were you guys, I would prepare myself for the event that you do not the closure that you anticipate… Despite the personal gains for GRRM, you must also consider the financial gains that GRRM & his heirs / legacy stand to gain too much by not providing closure to the R+L=J debate… We are talking about selling an order of magnitude more books by simply leaving the debate open.