R+L=J v 67

[FrozenFire3]

This one is quite convincing. God forbid this guy gives us another Summerhall. :lol: What is it building upto though - Brienne as Kingsguard, seeing she is the quite direct replacement of Ser Dunk in this series? Food for thought at least.

Sorry, I had some formatting issues with my tablet. Seems fixed now. As to your one million golden dragons question... only the Seven, R'hllor and the Old Gods know ;)

[Han Snow]

Merry Christmas everyone! :)

[Arya kiddin']

Sorry, I had some formatting issues with my tablet. Seems fixed now. As to your one million golden dragons question... only the Seven, R'hllor and the Old Gods know ;)

Well, I'll keep rooting for Brienne then. ;) And pray to the gods both old and new. :)

[Wisenan69]

This thread is one of the best Christmas gifts! Great job, you guys and ladies. Merry Christmas to all! And thank you.

[Lyse Stark]

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Jon-Snow-334254489

I think this what I would imagine Jon to look like from TWoW onward; cold and grim, and unafraid to make sacrifices to save the realm.

[J. Stargaryen]

Telepathy. I made a little research on the use of the word 'sullen' throughout the saga. The first thing that jumps to the eye is the frequent association of this adjective with the light/blaze/glare of fire, embers and heat. Countless examples. I'd highlight the following ones:

The pattern sullen --> orange --> fire --> dragons --> Targaryens is indeed recurrent (on a side note, the last passage is followed by the memory of Jamie's farewell to Rhaegar, in which the Prince is wearing his night-black armor. Night and black: enough said).

Another frequent association is sullen/Jon, as in our sullen bastard ;)

Dear ol' colour orange popping up again, in all its fiery regality. But there is more:

And here we come to our telepathy. Dunk&Egg:

Quite the sullen lot these (half)Targaryens :lol:

Links to previous analyses are aplenty btw, particularly in Jamie's passage. There we meet again an 'iron dragon' which reminds me of the rusty iron dragon washing up on the Quiet Isle. The iron tones of Rhaegar's voice are also linked to some of Jon's inner musings. Last but not least, the mention of the color orange, previously associated to Rhaegar, Jon and a shadow half-seen (dragons lurking?). Interesting the use of the word beast as synonym of dragon btw... We started with a sullen disposition and ended up in a fiery tangle of Jon/Targaryens symbolisms.

This is really good. Nice work, FrozenFire3!

[Alia of the knife]

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Jon-Snow-334254489

I think this what I would imagine Jon to look like from TWoW onward; cold and grim, and unafraid to make sacrifices to save the realm.

In your assessment, I agree with this. My only beef with the artwork, he is lacking a neck.:)

But, I like the Wolfe's eyes.

I think Rhaegar was tall and graceful, so Jon is as well.

[dragonsrule]

And, he wouldn't have a woman, either, like Ygritte? ;)

Stannis has offered to release him. Robb has released him. If he can only do what he considers his duty, to defend the realms of men, by becoming the one ruler of Westeros, I don't see him refusing.

Jon swore his oath before the old gods, only the old gods can release him. Remember Stannis's argument was that only oaths sworn to Rhlorr were valid, not something Jon believes. And Robb said that the NW could probably be persuaded to let him go in exchange for a hundred men? Robb did not suggest that he had the power to release Jon from his vows himself.

[addicted to snow]

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Jon-Snow-334254489

I think this what I would imagine Jon to look like from TWoW onward; cold and grim, and unafraid to make sacrifices to save the realm.

I have always pictured Jon looking like a large albino canine with a speech impediment for at least the first half of TWOW...

It seems pretty clear that he will not be trapped within Ghost for forever, yet some things GRRM has said during interviews leads me to believe that he will not be able to access his own (original body) either. However, not being trapped in Ghost is the important part, because the longer he stays bound inside of ghost, the less Jon & more Ghost he becomes.

Which skin will Jon take next? Your guess is as good as mine… Personally, I think that there will be an altercation with One-Eye, Jon will warg the wolf & from that point forward Varamyr-6-skins will also be in Jon's 'head'. I've put a lot of thought into it, and this is the only possible catalysts that I see for GRRM to compress Jon's learning-curve with respect to warging/skin-changing. Let's face it, all other characters are will on there way with regards to character development; Jon's development, on the other hand, is just beginning & GRRM must have some catalysts in mind to speed Jon's development & learning.

If I had to make a bet, I would bet that Jon will be wearing Hodor's skin at the end of TWOW (assuming he has not been able to access his own body by then). Either way, Jon will collect Hodor as one of his 'skins'… GRRM has been setting-up Hodor for this role since we were first introduced to the character...

-No one is stronger than Hodor, No one...

-Logistically speaking, Hodor has been strategically placed to run into Jon; assuming that Jon/Ghost & Val are going to travel North as foreshadowed in ADWD.

-Bran has already broken Hodor in, so it will be easy for the next warg who comes along (just like GRRM went out of his way to describe with ravens).

-Hodor carries a rusty old 'tourney sword' taken from one of the Stone Kings in Winterfell's Crypts… could this be more than just a tourney sword? I wonder???

-Hodor is fit as hell, carrying Bran on his back for about 1000 miles, & has been practicing with tourney sword to create muscle-memory

Hodor is definitely a vessel that GRRM has prepared for Jon…

The downside to these theories is that by the end of TWOW, Jon will have lost 90% of his morals from his time spend 'melding' with Ghost & from Varamyr's influence. The other downside is that the word "Abomination' will probably echo in Jon's head every time he takes another human skin or commits an abomination, just as the word rang out in Varamyr's head (see ADWD's Prologue). Note: Varamyr/One-Eye is the Only Prologue Character that has ever been seen alive in a subsequent chapter.

--

Before dismissing this post as being crack-pot, please consider that we are running short on books & a catalyst is required to advance Jon's character development. If you are are going to dismiss these theories, that is fine, but please offer an alternative catalysts that would (1) compromise Jon's Morals, while (2) imparting him with the knowledge necessary to be a powerful warg/skinchanger.

[Ygrain]

IMHO, Hodor is a vessel for Bran, to allow him to become a knight as he had always dreamt. He will be a hedge knight like Dunk was, roaming free across the Westeros.

As for Jon, his warging abilities will be fully unlocked in a coma state, like it happened to Bran, or Jojen. As for compromising his morals, being the leader in a desperate fight against the Others will require tough choices on its own, and an ultimate challenge may be to warg a dragon.

[Lyse Stark]

I have always pictured Jon looking like a large albino canine with a speech impediment for at least the first half of TWOW...

It seems pretty clear that he will not be trapped within Ghost for forever, yet some things GRRM has said during interviews leads me to believe that he will not be able to access his own (original body) either. However, not being trapped in Ghost is the important part, because the longer he stays bound inside of ghost, the less Jon & more Ghost he becomes.

Which skin will Jon take next? Your guess is as good as mine Personally, I think that there will be an altercation with One-Eye, Jon will warg the wolf & from that point forward Varamyr-6-skins will also be in Jon's 'head'. I've put a lot of thought into it, and this is the only possible catalysts that I see for GRRM to compress Jon's learning-curve with respect to warging/skin-changing. Let's face it, all other characters are will on there way with regards to character development; Jon's development, on the other hand, is just beginning & GRRM must have some catalysts in mind to speed Jon's development & learning.

If I had to make a bet, I would bet that Jon will be wearing Hodor's skin at the end of TWOW (assuming he has not been able to access his own body by then). Either way, Jon will collect Hodor as one of his 'skins' GRRM has been setting-up Hodor for this role since we were first introduced to the character...

-No one is stronger than Hodor, No one...

-Logistically speaking, Hodor has been strategically placed to run into Jon; assuming that Jon/Ghost & Val are going to travel North as foreshadowed in ADWD.

-Bran has already broken Hodor in, so it will be easy for the next warg who comes along (just like GRRM went out of his way to describe with ravens).

-Hodor carries a rusty old 'tourney sword' taken from one of the Stone Kings in Winterfell's Crypts could this be more than just a tourney sword? I wonder???

-Hodor is fit as hell, carrying Bran on his back for about 1000 miles, & has been practicing with tourney sword to create muscle-memory

Hodor is definitely a vessel that GRRM has prepared for Jon

The downside to these theories is that by the end of TWOW, Jon will have lost 90% of his morals from his time spend 'melding' with Ghost & from Varamyr's influence. The other downside is that the word "Abomination' will probably echo in Jon's head every time he takes another human skin or commits an abomination, just as the word rang out in Varamyr's head (see ADWD's Prologue). Note: Varamyr/One-Eye is the Only Prologue Character that has ever been seen alive in a subsequent chapter.

--

Before dismissing this post as being crack-pot, please consider that we are running short on books & a catalyst is required to advance Jon's character development. If you are are going to dismiss these theories, that is fine, but please offer an alternative catalysts that would (1) compromise Jon's Morals, while (2) imparting him with the knowledge necessary to be a powerful warg/skinchanger.

I doubt your idea. You think Jon Snow is gonna be a villain? I think Daenerys is gonna BE the villain. She has the dragons, and she will possibly use them. And the path she is currently ON is hinted by a certain quote.

What do this means for Daenerys? She has chosen a path of destruction and bloodshed. This results in many people losing their livelihoods and being forced to rebuild from virtually nothing. And others end up being killed.

As she progresses much deeper into darkness, she may even kill innocent people in order to make a point, and the Second Dance of The Dragons may push her over the edge to the point that she become the one deeply despised by many people.

You look stupid to me in comparison. I made comparisons between Daenerys and Anakin Skywalker because the quote I highlighted above foreshadows her becoming destructive and cruel. And I will be vindicated when TWoW comes out. You may argue with us all you want, but you'll lose.

[Ygrain]

May I suggest more careful phrasing of arguments? One that will not draw the attention of the Powers That Be?

[DominusNovus]

Forget Hodor, has anyone suggested Jon waring into Wun Wun?

[Alia of the knife]

On a side note, the one area I notice GRRM deviating from history is that it doesn't seem as if the Targaryens had any say in the marriages made amongst the high lords.

If I'm not mistaken, in real history one had to petition the king and get his permission and blessing, in which case he controlled how powerful alliances became.

If this were the case, I imagine Aerys would not have given his permission for a Stark/Tully, or Stark/Berantheon alliance.

[Ser Creighton]

On a side note, the one area I notice GRRM deviating from history is that it doesn't seem as if the Targaryens had any say in the marriages made amongst the high lords.

If I'm not mistaken, in real history one had to petition the king and get his permission and blessing, in which case he controlled how powerful alliances became.

If this were the case, I imagine Aerys would not have given his permission for a Stark/Tully, or Stark/Berantheon alliance.

Well in that world the Targs started out with Dragons and probably were not all that worried about a power struggle early on. The Maesters seem to influence a great measure of subtle influence in marriages along with many others areas. So that sort of picks up the slack. But not over controlling or micro managing the other territories seemed to work in favor of the Targs. The Targs seemed to give a rather lot of freedom to there subjects which probably helped keep tensions down. The houses had so much conflict between them for so long with constant war, it probably seemed like a nice break to most. Aegon never sacked the north, they simply bent the knee, they tended to be good to loyal subjects for the most part. Not all of them clearly and they did have there wars, but descriptions before then don't paint Westeros as a good place for anyone.

Anyway the Maesters seem to pick up a lot of the political slack for guys who are not in politics.

[Ser Leftwich]

On a side note, the one area I notice GRRM deviating from history is that it doesn't seem as if the Targaryens had any say in the marriages made amongst the high lords.

If I'm not mistaken, in real history one had to petition the king and get his permission and blessing, in which case he controlled how powerful alliances became.

If this were the case, I imagine Aerys would not have given his permission for a Stark/Tully, or Stark/Berantheon alliance.

Once upon a time, there was a theory proposed that Aerys (as an older relative of Robert) would want to assert some control over the arranged marriage. The idea that since Steffon was dead, Aerys would act as a father figure (he is an older second cousin to Robert, I believe) to arrange a marriage, rather than Robert doing it himself.

One counter was that Robert's maternal grandparents were alive and they could have the say. Though, that makes less sense if a paternal (sort of) relative was alive, especially if that relative was the king!

[Alia of the knife]

Once upon a time, there was a theory proposed that Aerys (as an older relative of Robert) would want to assert some control over the arranged marriage. The idea that since Steffon was dead, Aerys would act as a father figure (he is an older second cousin to Robert, I believe) to arrange a marriage, rather than Robert doing it himself.

One counter was that Robert's maternal grandparents were alive and they could have the say. Though, that makes less sense if a paternal (sort of) relative was alive, especially if that relative was the king!

That makes sense and should have been the natural course of things if we follow history, but apparently Robert prevailed upon Ned to approach Rickon for Lyannas hand though at this point he was a lord in his own right.

But even as a lord, he would have had to ask the king.

Other lords marriages would have been of great import to the Royal family.

[Lyse Stark]

And I believe that Jon will be burdened with the difficult task of saving the realm, while Daenerys and FAegon will be entangled up in a petty squabble over the throne. She will win, but her victory will be pyrrhic in that when Jon shows up, the people will choose him over her because they despise her for what she did in the south during the DoTD 2.0 such as killing innocents to make a point, her perceived kinslaying and that she is the Mad King's daughter. I believe that the lords and the small folk still remember his madness, and they won't bend the knee to her because they fear that she may go the way of Aerys II.

[Ser Leftwich]

Not sure if I have ever seen this tidbit brought up in R+L=J and I just noticed it myself.

In the very last of Ned's POV, in the last discussion with Varys, Varys says this:

“The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that’s true, Lord Eddard, tell me … why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" AGoT p. 636

Ned is going to suffer for the sin of usurping the rightful succession, on the surface this is his exposure of Joffrey, but it can also be interpreted for Ned usurping Jon's rightful succession. Technically, Joffrey is innocent, he does not know he is not Robert's son. And further, Joffrey's innocence is lost when he passes sentence on Ned.

There is a pattern of indirect comeuppance or retribution in the books: the NW members that Coldhands kills and another that I can't think of (I will look for it.)

ETA: spelling

[Alia of the knife]

Not sure if I have ever seen this tidbit brought up in R+L=J and I just noticed it myself.

In the very last of Ned's POV, in the last discussion with Varys, Varys says this:

The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If thats true, Lord Eddard, tell me why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?" AGoT p. 636

Ned is going to suffer for the sin of usurping the rightful succession, on the surface this is his exposure of Joffrey, but it can also be interpreted for Ned usurping Jon's rightful succession. Technically, Joffrey is innocent, he does not know he is not Robert's son. And further, Joffrey's innocence is lost when he passes sentence on Ned.

There is a pattern of indirect comeuppance or retribution in the books: the NW members that Coldhands kills and another that I can't think of (I will look for it.)

ETA: spelling

Fabulous catch!

I had always suspected that the conversation between Benjen and Jon about it being a good thing he wasn't his father is the fact that Benjen might have gone to war for his birthright whereas Ned just hid him.