R+L=J v 67

[Ghost's Shadow]

I know it's kind of obnoxious to post the same thing three different places, but this is pretty cool, and I wanted to make sure the regulars around here saw it.

So, last thread it occurred to me that Wylla Manderly's "I know about the promise ..." speech from ADwD, Davos III was a nod to Wylla the wet-nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned. Well, immediately before Wylla begins her speech, her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

- ADwD, Davos III

One of the reasons I love this series is that there are so many little gems like this, which we keep finding even in late 2013. Though I suppose Dance itself isn't very old. Still, pretty awesome.

I really like that find, so post away! And we finally see how "You know nothing." should be responded to. ;)

Jon certainly doesn't know about the promise. Yet.

[Ygrain]

I know it's kind of obnoxious to post the same thing three different places, but this is pretty cool, and I wanted to make sure the regulars around here saw it.

So, last thread it occurred to me that Wylla Manderly's "I know about the promise ..." speech from ADwD, Davos III was a nod to Wylla the wet-nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned. Well, immediately before Wylla begins her speech, her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

- ADwD, Davos III

One of the reasons I love this series is that there are so many little gems like this, which we keep finding even in late 2013. Though I suppose Dance itself isn't very old. Still, pretty awesome.

Believe me, it is no less impressive the third time :-)

I have another catch, or rather, Ser Leftwich, concerning why it is mentioned in the KotLT story that it was Ned who shared his tent with HR:

"It is to show that Ned has manners and honor. That he is giving Howland the place of honor he deserves as a lord's heir from the Neck. To show that Brandon did not care."

I think that this is a very astute observation. Brandon was the acting Lord Stark in Rickard's absence, he was the one who should have adressed the injustice done to HR, and he possessed both the authority and the skill to do so in the tourney. Yet, he didn't. The fact that HR had to pray to the old gods, IMHO, thus shows that Brandon lacked the will, Ned lacked the skill (we know that his swordmanship was not exceptional and there is no praise of him as an exceptional rider, either) and Benjen was too young, hence, steps in Lyanna.

[Arya kiddin']

"It is to show that Ned has manners and honor. That he is giving Howland the place of honor he deserves as a lord's heir from the Neck. To show that Brandon did not care."

I think that this is a very astute observation. Brandon was the acting Lord Stark in Rickard's absence, he was the one who should have adressed the injustice done to HR, and he possessed both the authority and the skill to do so in the tourney. Yet, he didn't. The fact that HR had to pray to the old gods, IMHO, thus shows that Brandon lacked the will, Ned lacked the skill (we know that his swordmanship was not exceptional and there is no praise of him as an exceptional rider, either) and Benjen was too young, hence, steps in Lyanna.

This one is truly great. *nod nod* . Very interesting.

[Alia of the knife]

I doubt your idea. You think Jon Snow is gonna be a villain? I think Daenerys is gonna BE the villain. She has the dragons, and she will possibly use them. And the path she is currently ON is hinted by a certain quote.

What do this means for Daenerys? She has chosen a path of destruction and bloodshed. This results in many people losing their livelihoods and being forced to rebuild from virtually nothing. And others end up being killed.

As she progresses much deeper into darkness, she may even kill innocent people in order to make a point, and the Second Dance of The Dragons may push her over the edge to the point that she become the one deeply despised by many people.

And the symbolism of trees, hence the land /life and the connection of the Weirwoods is a nice nod to Jon as well as the restoration of the wolves.☺

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I know it's kind of obnoxious to post the same thing three different places, but this is pretty cool, and I wanted to make sure the regulars around here saw it.

So, last thread it occurred to me that Wylla Manderly's "I know about the promise ..." speech from ADwD, Davos III was a nod to Wylla the wet-nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned. Well, immediately before Wylla begins her speech, her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

- ADwD, Davos III

One of the reasons I love this series is that there are so many little gems like this, which we keep finding even in late 2013. Though I suppose Dance itself isn't very old. Still, pretty awesome.

Not obnoxious at all!! This is great, and it belongs here.

As for continuing to find new things... I agree it's amazing. I don't think we're done yet either ;)

Eta- Ser Leftwich's observation is a case in point. As we dig deeper we gain more insight into character's feelings and motivations by using the treasure trove of hints in the text. This sort of perception can only increase our broader understanding of the hidden narrative. Well done! :cheers:

[MtnLion]

Interesting... There goes my theory that Lyanna named Jon for Jon Connington, Rhaegar's close friend, after she discovered it wasn't a girl as Rhaegar had most likely expected, and whose name would most likely have been Visenya...

Jon Connington wanted to be close to Rhaegar, we don't see those feelings be reciprocated.

[Lyse Stark]

And the symbolism of trees, hence the land /life and the connection of the Weirwoods is a nice nod to Jon as well as the restoration of the wolves.☺

Jon will plant many trees, while Dany destroys them.

[sdaddy77]

J. Stargaryen, on 23 Dec 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

I know it's kind of obnoxious to post the same thing three different places, but this is pretty cool, and I wanted to make sure the regulars around here saw it.

So, last thread it occurred to me that Wylla Manderly's "I know about the promise ..." speech from ADwD, Davos III was a nod to Wylla the wet-nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned. Well, immediately before Wylla begins her speech, her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

Why do other noble children seem to know the story of Eddard/Ashara/Rheagar/Lyanna but not the Stark children? The squire Ned Dayne knows something of it, as do the Reeds. They are suprised that the stark children, Arya and Bran, do not know. Is it because of Caitlin or because Ned died before he could tell them?

I just finished reading ADWD 2 days ago and I've been reading this board ever since trying to see what theories are out there. I'm a 90% believer in the R+L=J theory. I did not consider the Tower of Pleasure as evidence until reading these boards, but is compelling. I assumed that was just where the remaining knights of the Kingsguard fell back to after the battle of the trident.

I like the R+L=J theory better, but my initial thought when reading GoT was that Lyanna and Ned's secret was that Gendry was the son of Robert and Lyanna. He's about the same age as Rob and Jon and it was really important to get him out of King's Landing.

[The guy from the Vale]

Ned had to hide Jon's identity. Not only from Cat (but also from her), but mainly from Robert. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Harboring Jon without telling Robert his identity was treason, and telling Robert would have amounted to killing Jon. For that matter, he kept silent about any and all information regarding Lyanna, the issue of Jon's mother, and similar. When there were rumours of Ashara being Jon's mom, Ned quenched them immediately and forbade Cat to ever question him on the matter of Jon's mother. He definitely did not want his children to ask questions regarding Lyanna, the Rebellion, or Jon's mom.

The Daynes and Reeds are probably the two houses sharing Ned's secret. Howland Reed was the sole survivor of the ToJ (besidfes Ned and probably Wylla the wetnurse), so he definitely knew. Ned arrived in Starfall after the fight at the ToJ, and Ashara killed herself shortly after; and then there's Wylla who we know lives at Starfall and seems part of Ned's cover-up, as she "confirms" his lie. From this, we can guess that probably, the older Daynes know about Jon's parentage, too.

[Han Snow]

J. Stargaryen, on 23 Dec 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

Why do other noble children seem to know the story of Eddard/Ashara/Rheagar/Lyanna but not the Stark children? The squire Ned Dayne knows something of it, as do the Reeds. They are suprised that the stark children, Arya and Bran, do not know. Is it because of Caitlin or because Ned died before he could tell them?

I just finished reading ADWD 2 days ago and I've been reading this board ever since trying to see what theories are out there. I'm a 90% believer in the R+L=J theory. I did not consider the Tower of Pleasure as evidence until reading these boards, but is compelling. I assumed that was just where the remaining knights of the Kingsguard fell back to after the battle of the trident.

I like the R+L=J theory better, but my initial thought when reading GoT was that Lyanna and Ned's secret was that Gendry was the son of Robert and Lyanna. He's about the same age as Rob and Jon and it was really important to get him out of King's Landing.

Why would Jon Arryn kept something like this a secret? There is no reason whatsoever. Gendry would be legit if this notion was true, and heir to Robert's throne. I'm guessing that like Orys Baratheon, Gendry will become Lord of Storm's End by conquest in the name of some king or queen in the future.

[FrozenFire3]

I know it's kind of obnoxious to post the same thing three different places, but this is pretty cool, and I wanted to make sure the regulars around here saw it.

So, last thread it occurred to me that Wylla Manderly's "I know about the promise ..." speech from ADwD, Davos III was a nod to Wylla the wet-nurse knowing about Promise me, Ned. Well, immediately before Wylla begins her speech, her mother says to her: "You know nothing."

- ADwD, Davos III

One of the reasons I love this series is that there are so many little gems like this, which we keep finding even in late 2013. Though I suppose Dance itself isn't very old. Still, pretty awesome.

A real gem. This is all I need to enjoy my literature: layers and layers of textual 'sedimentation' to dig through, uncover and bring to light. It never gets old.

[Lyse Stark]

Ned had to hide Jon's identity. Not only from Cat (but also from her), but mainly from Robert. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Harboring Jon without telling Robert his identity was treason, and telling Robert would have amounted to killing Jon. For that matter, he kept silent about any and all information regarding Lyanna, the issue of Jon's mother, and similar. When there were rumours of Ashara being Jon's mom, Ned quenched them immediately and forbade Cat to ever question him on the matter of Jon's mother. He definitely did not want his children to ask questions regarding Lyanna, the Rebellion, or Jon's mom.

The Daynes and Reeds are probably the two houses sharing Ned's secret. Howland Reed was the sole survivor of the ToJ (besidfes Ned and probably Wylla the wetnurse), so he definitely knew. Ned arrived in Starfall after the fight at the ToJ, and Ashara killed herself shortly after; and then there's Wylla who we know lives at Starfall and seems part of Ned's cover-up, as she "confirms" his lie. From this, we can guess that probably, the older Daynes know about Jon's parentage, too.

Exactly. If the truth comes out about Jon then he would be in danger, and Ned would have no choice but to send him away, either to the Wall or to Essos. And if Aemon knew about Jon, then he would also conspired with Ned to protect the boy.

[The guy from the Vale]

Exactly. If the truth comes out about Jon then he would be in danger, and Ned would have no choice but to send him away, either to the Wall or to Essos. And if Aemon knew about Jon, then he would also conspired with Ned to protect the boy.

Aemon definitely didn't know. He thought Dany was the last Targ.

[J. Stargaryen]

I really like that find, so post away! And we finally see how "You know nothing." should be responded to. ;)

Jon certainly doesn't know about the promise. Yet.

You might be half kidding here, but this is actually true. The "You know nothing, Jon Snow" line was always meant to tie into his identity, no doubt. Further, I'm sure there is a tie in with Theon's "You have to know your name."

[sdaddy77]

I thought Ned went to ToJ specifically to finish off the Sword of the Morning which would mean he brought the battle. I questioned why Selmy and Jaimie wouldn't know about Lyanna but I've read other posts and see that it's possible they have been at Kingslanding for most of the war and don't know about it.

I'm not pushing the Gendry theory because I don't really buy it anymore either, but wanted to throw it out there to see what others thought. I think its relevant to this post because Lyanna couldn not have mothered two children from two fathers at the same time. However, if it were true, Jon Arryn kept it a secret because he was murdered before he could tell anyone.

[Ygrain]

I thought Ned went to ToJ specifically to finish off the Sword of the Morning which would mean he brought the battle. I questioned why Selmy and Jaimie wouldn't know about Lyanna but I've read other posts and see that it's possible they have been at Kingslanding for most of the war and don't know about it.

Definitely not, as both of them express sadness over the inevitable fight.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Definitely not, as both of them express sadness over the inevitable fight.

Agreed. By the dialogue between Ned and the KG you can tell both sides know it is an inevitable fight to the death between men bound by their honor in a situation out of their control. I think Ned was the rare kind of lord in the realm the KG at the TOJ would have given great respect to and vice-versa. They didn't want to kill each other but they had no choice. When Ned told them all of the places he expected to see them, it has a two part meaning. One Ned was wondering why they were not with and guarding Rhaegar, if not him why not Aerys, if not him why not Viserys and two, he was wishing they had been at all of those other places and not standing before him.

[LadyMaeve]

I thought Ned went to ToJ specifically to finish off the Sword of the Morning which would mean he brought the battle. I questioned why Selmy and Jaimie wouldn't know about Lyanna but I've read other posts and see that it's possible they have been at Kingslanding for most of the war and don't know about it.

I'm not pushing the Gendry theory because I don't really buy it anymore either, but wanted to throw it out there to see what others thought. I think its relevant to this post because Lyanna couldn not have mothered two children from two fathers at the same time. However, if it were true, Jon Arryn kept it a secret because he was murdered before he could tell anyone.

Only Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he "kidnapped" Lyanna. Hightower found them when things got serious. The other four were with Aerys in King's Landing. We don't know if Rhaegar told them anything about Lyanna.

About Gendry, I think he's a year or two younger that Jon. The wiki says he was born around 285, not 283. He also remembers his mother, who died when he was young. His father is a mystery. You can say he doesn't know the truth, but there's absolutely no reason to keep him hidden from Robert.

[MtnLion]

Agreed. By the dialogue between Ned and the KG you can tell both sides know it is an inevitable fight to the death between men bound by their honor in a situation out of their control. I think Ned was the rare kind of lord in the realm the KG at the TOJ would have given great respect to and vice-versa. They didn't want to kill each other but they had no choice. When Ned told them all of the places he expected to see them, it has a two part meaning. One Ned was wondering why they were not with and guarding Rhaegar, if not him why not Aerys, if not him why not Viserys and two, he was wishing they had been at all of those other places and not standing before him.

Actually the sequence was looking for them, first at the Trident, then at King's Landing, and finally at Storm's End. He asks them to surrender, which they refuse. Then Ned asks them if they would like to go and guard Viserys. He is searching for a way out of the crisis, but the response is that the Kingsguard would not flee to Dragonstone with Viserys while Aerys was alive, then. And, now they must be guarding the king.

[sdaddy77]

Just as the swords come out Dayne says, "And now it begins." Ned, thinking he is referring to the immenent fight, replies "No, now it ends." Re-reading this passage, Dayne's comment was obviously a foreshadowing that the prophecy or the real war of good vs evil was just beginning as the child in the prophecy had just been born. But what we don't know is whether or not Ned went there knowing what Lyanna's secret was or if he was piecing it together as he was talking to the Kingsguard about all the places he searched for them where they should have been but weren't.