did jaime and theon get what they deserved?

[Sansa_Stark]

Theon hasn't suffered enough, trust me. When Ramsay finds him I hope he flays him alive and feeds him to his bitches once and for all!

Harsh.

I feel as though Jaime is one of the top 3 people responsible for the WoT5K.

He totally deserves the death penalty.

[Florina Laufeyson]

No one deserves what Theon got. Not even in an eye-for-an-eye morality would anyone deserve that.

I agree. I think i would have been ok if Theon just lost his head. But this brutal torture and destruction of identity is a little...disproportionate. Death is cleaner. Death is kinder.

As for Jaime, i think he did get what he deserved. Losing his hand meant losing what made him matter in his own eyes. He even says something like "what am i without my sword hand?" Plus, hes delivering some punishment in Cersei's direction so im ok with him.

[Sansa_Stark]

ramsay doesn't even deserve the ramsay treatment imo

[Arthur Dayne's Honor Alt]

I agree. I think i would have been ok if Theon just lost his head. But this brutal torture and destruction of identity is a little...disproportionate. Death is cleaner. Death is kinder.

As for Jaime, i think he did get what he deserved. Losing his hand meant losing what made him matter in his own eyes. He even says something like "what am i without my sword hand?" Plus, hes delivering some punishment in Cersei's direction so im ok with him.

this

[Warden of the Cheesy]

I enjoy both characters as POVs.

I don't think Theon deserved what he got at all. He clearly was trying to win back his father's affection. I honestly would have done the same thing only I wouldn't have pretended to kill the Stark boys. I would have listened to Asha and left Winterfell, hoping my father would understand I only did it to make him proud. Did he betray Robb and do I hate him for that? Yes, Robb was my favorite character even without a POV and it pissed me off when this happened, but I understand why he did it entirely.

Jaime deserved what he got, he crippled Bran and became a cripple because of it. I don't take issue with him killing King Aerys at all. If it were between the lives of half a million people (show quote, not sure what the book says about the population of King's Landing) and a Mad King? I'd choose the half million people. My only issue in act this stems from the fact that he did nothing to protect Elia and her children. There is a grey area.. He should have died protecting the Queen-to-be and the heir (I guess technically King after Aerys died) to the Iron Throne. The timeline on that is all messed up to though. Did he kill Aerys before or after Elia and her children were dead? I'm sure someone here knows the answer to that. My assumption is that Aerys died before they did. I think he will redeem himself for his failures, assisting a Targaryen (unbeknowst to them) who ends up on the Iron Throne, and then being executed for his treasons long past. I don't see a way that Jaime Lannister lives in the end of this series.

[Lady of Dragonstone]

I think Jaime received a fair bit of retribution for some of the wrongs he has done. Truly, the only thing that made him "deserve" the wound was, in my opinion, pushing Bran off the tower.

Ramsay, on the other hand, has harmed Theon in so many cruel and inhumane ways that I would go so far as to say that nobody deserves it, and I agree with the above poster that said death would surely be a kinder fate. Theon's crimes disgust me. I do not sympathize with him on that; he turned against the only people loyal to him, out of insecurity and immaturity. However, nobody deserves to be abused mentally as such, or physically as well.

I feel bad for saying it, but I really hope karma kicks Ramsay Snow's ass.

[Danelle]

I missed it all on my first reading but found lots of hints on my second. Ten year old Theon was happy when his brothers were killed- happy! He remembers" drunken cuffs from one brother and cruel japes from the other" so they weren't normal brothers to Theon.

Also, in ACOK when Theon is heading to Pyke, Old man Mallister gets concerned because his son is very friendly with Theon. (Jason Mallister was the one that had killed Theon's brother). Theon said to the son @ ," If you father thinks I have hard feelings towards him, then he obviously didn't know my brother very well" and he laughed!

I agree that there wasn't much love between Theon and his older brothers.

Also Asha in DWD, when she thinks of Stannis and his relationship with Robert she recalls how Rodrik and Maron treated Theon

"That was ill judged, my lady," he told her. "Never speak to him of Robert."

I should have known better. Asha knew how it went with little brothers. She remembered Theon as a boy, a shy child who lived in awe, and fear, of Rodrik and Maron. They never grow out of it, she decided. A little brother may live to be a hundred, but he will always be a little brother.

Nevertheless claiming that Theon was unloved and abused in his youth is an exagerration. I doubt that Alannys would allow her boys to harm Theon.

[Nictarion]

Theon? Yes, oath breaker, murderer, usurper, definitely deserved what was coming to him.

Nobody deserves what Theon has gone through.

[fuem]

Theon YES he did all he did for self glory etc..

Jamie well he saved KL and he well really has a good heart his honest in his own way even with that mad sister of his and his family even tyrion

[Slender Aimry Hill]

I love Theon, I would accept, to an irrational extent and find it difficult to maintain civilised argument with anyone who thinks he deserved Ramsay.

Jaime's chapters are among the most enjoyable in the series, but I must say I have have a hard time buying him as the great democrat and saviour some accept he is for killing Aerys. His motives seemed to me reasonable enough, but certainly mixed leaning selfish. My heart doesn't bleed all that much for his lost hand, though obviously saving Brienne was a real, personal good deed.

But be that as it may...does anyone get just 'payback' in these books? Isn't the lack of fairness and proportion in such 'payback' something of a consistent theme?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Actually, it makes absolute no sense for Theon to declare Robb king. As how his message was the offer of an alliance that would deliver an independent Iron Islands with Balon as their sole king and Theon as his heir. And it would hardly be any true independence if Theon (the future king of the Iron Islands) had already declared Robb to be his king.

My Answer to OP

Theon: no as nobody deserves what Theon received. Especially, seeing how the one punishing him is the actual individual who performed the worst of Theon's deeds and is a thousand times worse person then Theon.

Jaime: Somewhat, as his punishment is not as excessive as Theon's, however there is the fact that it was only performed to satisfy a sadistic freak that negates it being any type of justice.

This whole thread made me go back to GOT and look through that chapter with new eyes. Still, I think it's fair to say that Theon left for the Iron Islands accepting Robb as KitN as he was quite game for the Iron Islands being given to House Greyjoy as it's own kingdom, not counting on Balon and the iron price, etc. One thing (and I can't believe I didn't notice in my first billion rereads) is that during the war council before the KitN declarations, Cat does tell us that lots of people spoke their minds (she notes Theon's attendance at the beginning, only two spots from Robb), but she does tell us during the long meeting that many in attendance came and went, speaking their minds, getting upset, leaving, returning. Oddly, during the KitN declaration scene Theon isn't named as being there or saying anything, etc. It's hard to know. But, I still feel that Theon's travel to the Islands bespoken an acceptance of Robb being KitN, even if technically the outcome was supposed to be Theon left as the heir to his own kingdom. That, and Theon's thoughts throughout ADWD say to me that in many respects he himself feels he betrayed Robb. Still, I don't think Theon deserved at all what he got from Ramsey, I just find it ironic that is what it took to really see his humanity in any depth.

[Minsc]

Theon - Yes; I really, really hate child killers and molesters more than anyone can imagine

Jamie - is much harder to say, he does try to do right after losing that arm, but I don't think it's enough quite yet

If Theon deserved his much harsher punishment then shouldn't Jaime deserve his(and more) seeing how he is an attempted child murder who even after losing his hand threatens an innocent child?

[Minsc]

Nevertheless claiming that Theon was unloved and abused in his youth is an exagerration. I doubt that Alannys would allow her boys to harm Theon.

It doesn't matter what Alannys wants it matters what Balon wants. And he seems like the father that would think getting beat up builds character in his son. Thus, I could see him continuing to allow Maron and Rodrick to abuse Theon as means to toughen up his youngest son.

This whole thread made me go back to GOT and look through that chapter with new eyes. Still, I think it's fair to say that Theon left for the Iron Islands accepting Robb as KitN

He might accept Robb as KitN, but that doesn't mean that he accepts Robb as his king in how the Iron Islands are not of the North or Trident.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

It doesn't matter what Alannys wants it matters what Balon wants. And he seems like the father that would think getting beat up builds character in his son. Thus, I could see him continuing to allow Maron and Rodrick to abuse Theon as means to toughen up his youngest son.

He might accept Robb as KitN, but that doesn't mean that he accepts Robb as his king in how the Iron Islands are not of the North or Trident.

The rest of my post that you didn't quote basically said the same thing....as Theon was quite willing to accept being an heir to another kingdom, backed up by his 'friend' Robb, KitN. I'd also, for me go far enough to say, Theon could be seen to start out as a subject of said KitN, how else does one accept the rights to a new kingdom from a king? I'd say, most likely, by swearing allegiance to said King who is willing to give another area independance. Anyway, that's how I see it, I don't expect others to necessarily see it the same way.

ETA: Although, it could all be implied, I can see Robb just thinking of Theon as his good friend, and never bothering to have said oath sworn to him. But, I still think it is all implied.

[Danelle]

It doesn't matter what Alannys wants it matters what Balon wants. And he seems like the father that would think getting beat up builds character in his son. Thus, I could see him continuing to allow Maron and Rodrick to abuse Theon as means to toughen up his youngest son.

I wouldn't underestimate Alannys and her influence.

The OP said that Theon was unloved and abused in his youth. I think that this is an exaggeration, especially if his situation is compared to Sandor and Tommen, who had to suffer the abuse of older siblings such as Gregor and Joffrey.

[Minsc]

I wouldn't underestimate Alannys and her influence.

The OP said that Theon was unloved and abused in his youth. I think that this is an exaggeration, especially if his situation is compared to Sandor and Tommen, who had to suffer the abuse of older siblings such as Gregor and Joffrey.

Does Balon look like a character that would give a shit about his wife's feelings? He might not have suffered the same harshness as Sandor(which is difficult for anyone not related to Gregor), but it appears that besides his mother, Dagmer Cleftjaw, and Asha(somewhat) that his early life wasn't the happiest.

[Danelle]

Does Balon look like a character that would give a shit about his wife's feelings? He might not have suffered the same harshness as Sandor(which is difficult for anyone not related to Gregor), but it appears that besides his mother, Dagmer Cleftjaw, and Asha(somewhat) that his early life wasn't the happiest.

Alannys doesn't appear to be docile and submissive and she has gone mad because of Theon's absence. I doubt that she would tolerate an extreme abuse of her baby boy.

I am not arguing that Theon's life in Pyke was blissful. But not everyone treated him the way Rodrik and Maron did.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I want to post something about a sample chapter in relation to this Theon childhood discussion, but I can't figure out which one is the spoiler option in the quote box, much less how to work it, LOL Can someone help me. I'll go look around the board and see if I can find directions, but I've tried lots of the icons, and don't think I've found it yet.

ETA: AH HA!! It's a doityourself type of thing.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Alannys doesn't appear to be docile and submissive and she has gone mad because of Theon's absence. I doubt that she would tolerate an extreme abuse of her baby boy.

I am not arguing that Theon's life in Pyke was blissful. But not everyone treated him the way Rodrik and Maron did.

For Theon and his upbringing, I have a thought even further on his life in the Iron Islands.

During the Theon sample chapter, he mentions the One Eyed Umber and his white eyepatch and thinks to himself, paraphrasing with does get me in trouble sometimes, that he'd like to rip off that white eyepatch Crowfood is wearing (I love the description of his outfit, by the way), and make sure there isn't the black eye hidden, like dear old Nuncle Euron Crow's Eye. This said to me that young Theon had some knowledge about Euron in his youth, and just made me wonder if, just like there might be something to abuse that is perhaps sexual of Aeron from Euron with the squeaky hinge, did Euron do something to Theon. Or is just that Theon knows the legends of a younger Euron Crow's Eye? I just thought there was something strange about Theon all of the sudden worrying enough about Euron's other eye that he feels almost compelled to rip off Umber's eyepatch?

[Danelle]

For Theon and his upbringing, I have a thought even further on his life in the Iron Islands.

I hope not. The Greyjoy family dynamic appears to be quite disturbing. They are almost as dysfunctional as the Lannisters. In the sample chapter Theon expresses his hatred towards Euron. Personally I am not surprised although I find it unlikely that Euron would go as far as sexually abusing his own nephew. Balon might not be a model father, but he would kill Euron if he ever found out. Given Euron's attitude towards Asha, Victarion and Aeron, I think that Euron aims to displease and annoy his family. He knows that Asha is a strong and independent woman, who has won the respect of the Ironborn and he humiliates her by giving her to a man old anough to be her grandfather. He knows that he will offend Victarion by appearing before him naked and ordering him to find Dany. He enjoys tormenting Aeron's faith in the Drowned God. Rodrik was a drunk, Maron was obnoxious but Euron probably knew what annoyed Theon the most and used it against him. He was a 10 year old boy when the rebellion took place and his memory of Euron is probably affected by that as well. It should be noted that he loved Aeron, and he was dissapointed to discover that his favourite uncle became Damphair. Euron apparently was far from being Theon's favourite uncle. Robb in SOS recalls what Theon told him about Euron " “Euron Greyjoy is no man’s notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he’s dead… but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can’t believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow’s Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back." The sample chapter offers further insight in Theon's attitude towards his family and I think that it is the first time when it is mentioned that Euron has eterochromia. Still I think that the only person who has extremely abused Theon is Ramsay.