UK Politics: Iain Duncan Smith introduces death penalty for poor people

[Commodore]

Clegg vs. Farage, can't wait

@Nigel_Farage 3 hrs

The live televised debate on EU membership is on BBC2 on April 2. @LBC will hold a radio debate on March 26.

[MinDonner]

Your support for UKIP rather undermines any pretense you may have formerly made that your right-wingy Libertarianism has anything to do with Freedom - basically you just hate foreigners, right? And so you like other parties that hate foreigners too, even if those foreigners that they hate include you?

Weird.

[Derfel Cadarn]

From memory, Clegg debated quite well in the last general election. I dont see Farage giving him much trouble. Maybe they could hold it in Scotland so we can chase him out again?

[mormont]

Clegg benefited from the bar being set extremely low for him in that debate: nobody expected him to do well.

Of course, in any debate against Farage he'll benefit from the bar being set extremely low again. After all, it's Farage.

[Commodore]

Your support for UKIP rather undermines any pretense you may have formerly made that your right-wingy Libertarianism has anything to do with Freedom - basically you just hate foreigners, right? And so you like other parties that hate foreigners too, even if those foreigners that they hate include you?

Nothing against foreigners, but being ruled by them is not representative democracy.

I listen to just about everything Farage says. His complaints amount to

1) Brussels ruling over UK, often through unelected ministers

2) Uncontrolled migration burdening the welfare system and depressing low skilled wages

[Werthead]

I listen to just about everything Farage says. His complaints amount to

1) Brussels ruling over UK, often through unelected ministers

2) Uncontrolled migration burdening the welfare system and depressing low skilled wages

Neither of which are completely true. We have an minimum wage, so it's not possible depress wages very far. One of the biggest concerns in that area are actually people being brought in from outside the EU (India and Pakistan in particular) to work cash-in-hand without the government being aware they are even here, which has nothing to do with the EU at all.

The current explosion in Westminster is that the government published a report last year saying that for every 100 foreigners employed, 23 Brits lose out on jobs. A more recent government report has confirmed this to be a load of bollocks and put the true figure considerably lower. The government has sat on this report and refused to publish it, because it contradicts their narrative that foreigners are (somehow) simultaneously stealing both the jobs and jobless benefits of British residents. The government's damage control yesterday and today has been spectacularly inept, claiming that the report was not complete. It was finalised in November and given to the government to read and publish, so yes, it was; the government can commission a follow-up report, but the report in question was ready to go four months ago.

The government is already bracing itself for defeat on the issue, informing everyone that Cameron hasn't even read it, so everything's okay.

As for your first point, yes, even many Europhiles are unhappy with the lack of transparency in some areas and how unelected ministers in Brussels pass laws that are nonsensical, or how Britain enforces laws that other EU members completely ignore. But that's something that can be addressed through renegotiation rather than flouncing off.

[Commodore]

careful, you're engaging in reasoned debate, giving legitimacy to the arguments of the other side

you're supposed to just say "Farage hates foreigners", deligitimize anyone with a different point of view

even with (especially with) a minimum wage, an increase in the labor pool will increase unemployment

[Werthead]

Britain's unemployment map is highly skewed locally. The majority of immigrants are heading for London (where the economy is booming hugely on a local level), whilst native unemployment in the UK is focused a lot on the suburbs of other cities and in smaller towns. If the immigrants were dispersing across the whole country in a level fashion, then the argument of more immigrants = more unemployment would work.

There's also the issue that unemployment is falling (though the government is fudging the figures spectacularly) at the same time there's been an uptick in immigration, so the correlation doesn't seem to exist.

[Lummel]

Farage and Clegg - two men in search of some media exposure hit upon the brilliant idea of debating each other.

It hardly matters which is the better or more persuasive speaker, solid xenophobes or europhiles aren't going to shift their opinion. Clegg represents everything that the broad base of UKIP support doesn't understand and has no sympathy for - somebody from the top of society integrated into a European social and political elite, open to what that offers - while Farage's pint and a fag persona and his lets make up or discard policy on the hoof approach is hardly going to eat into the Liberal Democrat vote.

[Werthead]

True. But Clegg generally performs well on the hoof whilst Farage is only good at public speaking when he controls the audience. When things go even slightly off-target from what he's expecting, he gets rattled, nervous and loses his cool. A poor performance by Farage, particularly in the wake of the new statistics (we're now hearing that the impact of immigration on British jobs in the new report even uses the word 'negligible'), can only harm UKIP or increase scepticism within the party over Farage's leadership.

[Hereward]

You think UKIP voters watch election debates? His catastrophically inept leadership over the last six months has seen UKIP rise inexorably in the polls, so it seems unlikely that highlighting his shortcomings in any form has much of an effect. His supporters are distrustful of the media, politics and intellectuals. If they're watching, and if he gets taken apart so blatantly that they notice, both of which I doubt, he's more likely to get a sympathy boost for having to suffer the "too clever by half" brigade.

[Lummel]

Sympathy boost, I can see that, but rather like his 'uncomfortable' experience in the train carriage listening to non-English people talking to each other in a language other than English while in England just like English people talk to each other in English while abroad, it is possible to say things that are at once stupid, yet also can resonate with the right audience.

I'm not sure that Farage has anything to fear in regard to his leadership, UKIP comes across as a personal vehicle for him and his loyal supporters.

[Alex.]

Apropos of nothing, the Court News twitter account is currently reporting that Max Clifford's penis is being described in some detail in the Rebekah Brooks his own trial. Apparently Clifford is a bit of a wrong'un which I for one am surprised at.

Potential Lummel fan fic territory, this

ETA: I got the trial wrong. Still, some funny stuff.

[Hereward]

As a person with a high regard for my future financial wellbeing, I would like to note in advance my shock and horror at any totally fictional depiction of highly litigious PR operatives and a wide range of politicians, media luvvies and farmyard animals.

Thank you.

[Alex.]

Clifford masturbated while he was on the phone to his wife in front of one of his victims, court hears.

Clifford pretending to be Michael Winner on the phone to female models, court hears.

Clifford allegedly told a19-year-old "Look at my penis, isn't it tiny? What can I do with this?"

Max Clifford has a 'tiny member' the court hears.

Michael Winner!!

[Lummel]

For some reason I'm suddenly plagued by memories of old tv adverts. "Soft, strong and very long" or "Naughty, but nice" (as dreamt up Salman Rushdie).

Anyhow, with regard to the numerous cases going through our court system, I've heard that there is no such thing as bad publicity, but now I'm not so sure.

[Usotsuki]

Oddly enough my favourite so far doesn't involve either Clifford or Brooks:

Hostage taker was annoyed because prison staff were 'quite rude' . Parts of Full Sutton jail also lacked 'homey' feel

[Hereward]

I've only been to prison once and I felt it was very homey. It was exceptionally tense, with an undercurrent of despair, the food was bloody awful and I wasn't allowed to play golf.

[Lummel]

Eh I was struck by this one: "Brave 'twitcher' rewarded by court after he tailed gang who robbed him while recording rare birds" what kind of a gang would rob a bird watcher? Was it the binoculars or the notebook they were after?

[Alex.]

Maybe they were trying to steal the sense of enormous wellbeing you get when sitting on a hill with some binoculars watching wildlife? Abstract, yes, but an ambitious theft.