Who would Brandon have crowned as QoLaB?

[nara]

Definitely Lyanna. 1) Cat is not there so there's no one else who has a "right" to his regard. 2) Brandon loved Lyanna enough that when she was kidnapped, he immediately went to fight for her. 3) It seems the norm for brothers to name their sisters QOLAB, or at least fight to maintain their titles. At Harrenhal, the daughter of the house started the tourney as QOLAB and her brothers were defending her title. Also, in The Hedge Knight, the daughter was QOLAB (since it was a tourney for her birthday) and her brothers defended her title.

[koki]

I think Lyanna as well. I've always imagined Brandon and Lyanna as rather close.

[Pod The Impaler]

I say Brandon would have chosen his betrothed, Catelyn Tully, but if he wanted to rebel, he may have named Barbrey Ryswell*.
(*Can a woman who is not there be crowned as QOLAB ? If they can, then maybe he would.)



PS: I stand firm in the belief that it was Ashara and Ned. Yeah. Brandon did not cock-block - he wanted he little brother to become a man.

[Ygrain]

Definitely Lyanna. 1) Cat is not there so there's no one else who has a "right" to his regard. 2) Brandon loved Lyanna enough that when she was kidnapped, he immediately went to fight for her. 3) It seems the norm for brothers to name their sisters QOLAB, or at least fight to maintain their titles. At Harrenhal, the daughter of the house started the tourney as QOLAB and her brothers were defending her title. Also, in The Hedge Knight, the daughter was QOLAB (since it was a tourney for her birthday) and her brothers defended her title.

And yet, from the account of his action, there is no mention of Lyanna...

I think Lyanna as well. I've always imagined Brandon and Lyanna as rather close.

There is no textual support, though. It is said that they were both exceptional riders, yet not a mention of rides together. When Lyanna trains swordfight, it is with Benjen, not Brandon. I'd expect that after five books, we would have had something.

I say Brandon would have chosen his betrothed, Catelyn Tully, but if he wanted to rebel, he may have named Barbrey Ryswell*.

(*Can a woman who is not there be crowned as QOLAB ? If they can, then maybe he would.)

PS: I stand firm in the belief that it was Ashara and Ned. Yeah. Brandon did not cock-block - he wanted he little brother to become a man.

I'm not sure how to interpret this:

"Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present."

Does it mean that he wouldn't have crowned the queen, present or not, and her absence is an additional information, or that he wouldn't have crowned her because of ehr absence? In A Song for Arbonne, the winner of the tourney does send one of the tokens to an absent lady. The book reflects the medieval reality quite a lot but I do not know if this in particular was a RL custom or not.

As for Ned and Ashara, I used to think that, as well, but when I started to look at clues, I found none for and all against.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think he would have crowned Lyanna, if only to avoid the impropriety of crowning someone other than Catelyn, who wasn't there. It seems to be a thing for knights to honor their sisters, too, like the Whent girl and her brothers.

I say Brandon would have chosen his betrothed, Catelyn Tully, but if he wanted to rebel, he may have named Barbrey Ryswell*.
(*Can a woman who is not there be crowned as QOLAB ? If they can, then maybe he would.)

Pretty sure Catelyn wasn't there either.

ETA: It's actually extremely weird for Catelyn not to be there, since the Whents were 1. Tully vassals and 2. kin and 3. it was the biggest damn tourney of the time; people still talk about it almost 20 years later. So I think that the reason to leave Catelyn out is to build tension where Ashara and Ned are concerned; because she wasn't there, she doesn't really know what happened between Ned and Ashara at the tournament, and it's a source of angst.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think he would have crowned Lyanna, if only to avoid the impropriety of crowning someone other than Catelyn, who wasn't there. It seems to be a thing for knights to honor their sisters, too, like the Whent girl and her brothers.

Pretty sure Catelyn wasn't there either.

None mention her, but Harrenhal is in the Riverlands, and if her betrothed had come all the way down there from Winterfell, it would not surprise me if she was.

I imagine there were lots of courtly ladies of that region that would have attended, that are not explicitly mentioned. After all, this tourney was notable for being one of the largest of all time, and have many nobles in attendance. Tourneys are politically important meetings (aside from being contests), and places where deals occur between houses, and matches (official or otherwise) are made between the sons and daughters. If only the 5 noblewomen listed above were there, it would have been a poor dance afterwards.

[Minsc]

None mention her, but Harrenhal is in the Riverlands, and if her betrothed had come all the way down there from Winterfell, it would not surprise me if she was.

Cat mentions never meeting Ned until their wedding and it wouldn't make sense for Brandon to not present her to his siblings if she was at Harrenhal at the same time they were there.

[nara]

And yet, from the account of his action, there is no mention of Lyanna...

There is no textual support, though. It is said that they were both exceptional riders, yet not a mention of rides together. When Lyanna trains swordfight, it is with Benjen, not Brandon. I'd expect that after five books, we would have had something.

I'm not following your first point above. Can you please clarify? Did you mean, there's no mention of Brandon and Lyanna doing anything together at Harrenhal? If so, I think that's pretty normal. There's nothing remarkable about brother and sister talking or dancing together, so no one is likely to think about it especially. We hear of the tourney from Barristan's perspective and through Meera's story. In the case of the former, he's focused on Ashara and Rhaegar, so the activities of others are less relevant except as they relate to those two. In Meera's story, she's more focused on what her father has told her, which is about his relationship with Lyanna.

About your second point, there have been no real POVs to tell us about Brandon and Lyanna's relationship. It's too painful for Ned to think about them and Barbrey and Cat think about Brandon in relation to themselves. And we never got a Benjen POV. If either Nan or Benjen is still alive, we might get something, but it's unlikely.

[Ygrain]

I'm not following your first point above. Can you please clarify? Did you mean, there's no mention of Brandon and Lyanna doing anything together at Harrenhal? If so, I think that's pretty normal. There's nothing remarkable about brother and sister talking or dancing together, so no one is likely to think about it especially. We hear of the tourney from Barristan's perspective and through Meera's story. In the case of the former, he's focused on Ashara and Rhaegar, so the activities of others are less relevant except as they relate to those two. In Meera's story, she's more focused on what her father has told her, which is about his relationship with Lyanna.

That belonged to the bolded part of your post, about Brandon riding to KL when he thought that Lyanna was kidnapped. First, we do not know what he thought, second, we only have an account how he yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die, without mentioning anything about Lyanna. One would think that the core statement of a loving brother in such a situation would be concern about her freedom and safety instead of revenge. With the information we have, it cannot be ruled out that he acted not out of concern for Lyanna but that he took offence at Rhaegar besmirching family honour by seducing his maiden sister.

About your second point, there have been no real POVs to tell us about Brandon and Lyanna's relationship. It's too painful for Ned to think about them and Barbrey and Cat think about Brandon in relation to themselves. And we never got a Benjen POV. If either Nan or Benjen is still alive, we might get something, but it's unlikely.

And? GRRM inserts a lot of details into PoVs who couldn't have any first-hand knowledge, like Bran, Theon, Cersei or Kevan.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Does a QoLaB have to be crowned? The tourney of the Hand didnt have one, but obviously that hadnt gone entirely as normal

[RumHam]

Does a QoLaB have to be crowned? The tourney of the Hand didnt have one, but obviously that hadnt gone entirely as normal

hah, I would have loved to see who Sandor would have crowned.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

hah, I would have loved to see who Sandor would have crowned.

Think there is currently a thread running on that... I liked the idea of the Dornish Red ;)

[Ygrain]

I've started to wonder... what would have happened, had Brandon crowned Ashara and it also become public knowledge that he slept with her? How would the Tullys react? Would they have felt slighted enough to break the betrothal?

This is, of course, entirely crackpot, but what if this is exactly what Brandon wanted? Rickard wouldn't have let him simply back out, but if the Tullys themselves called it off and Brandon had to do the right thing not to piss off the Daynes on top of it... it would have mattered greatly to him to win the tournament, and he would definitely hold a grudge against Rhaegar for crossing his plan, which might explain why he overreacted when he heard about Lyanna. It might also explain what that mysterious business for which he left Riverrun prior the wedding (because if he just went to meet Rickard or Lyanna, why not say so?). It always puzzled me how come that the days of ride to KL didn't calm his hot head in the least, but what if he was in KL already, or close, because he went to arrange things/get news about Ashara? We only presume that he was out of himself because of Lyanna, but what if he was distressed because he'd heard of Ashara's stillbirth? And BTW, why didn't Ashara use moontea, unless she was expecting some way to fix the situation?

[Mayura]

I don't think Brandon being engaged or not would have changed anything. It is often mentionned that Brandon "took what he wanted". And so far we know he had at least one another confirmed lover: Lady Dustin. Then he was bethrothed to Cat to fulfill his father's ambitions but he mentionned to Barbrey Dustin he didn't want to marry Cat and Rickard wasn't giving him any choice.

With Barristan's lines, it sure sounds like Brandon and Ashara had a thing. Even from Meera's story, it sounds like Ashara wasn't shy and Brandon wasn't intimidated and danced with her and even arranged things for her to dance with Ned :)

Plus, it sounds very likely to me that a man who's been bethrothed ""against his will"" would definitely use his last time far away from his future wife to enjoy himself, especially if the maid with the laughing purple eyes was a candidate :)

[David Selig]

I've started to wonder... what would have happened, had Brandon crowned Ashara and it also become public knowledge that he slept with her? How would the Tullys react? Would they have felt slighted enough to break the betrothal?

Extremely unlikely IMO. Hoster was way too pragmatic and politically ambitious to do that. Though Brandon may have misjudged him.

[Ygrain]

I don't think Brandon being engaged or not would have changed anything. It is often mentionned that Brandon "took what he wanted". And so far we know he had at least one another confirmed lover: Lady Dustin. Then he was bethrothed to Cat to fulfill his father's ambitions but he mentionned to Barbrey Dustin he didn't want to marry Cat and Rickard wasn't giving him any choice.

With Barristan's lines, it sure sounds like Brandon and Ashara had a thing. Even from Meera's story, it sounds like Ashara wasn't shy and Brandon wasn't intimidated and danced with her and even arranged things for her to dance with Ned :)

Plus, it sounds very likely to me that a man who's been bethrothed ""against his will"" would definitely use his last time far away from his future wife to enjoy himself, especially if the maid with the laughing purple eyes was a candidate :)

The problem here is that is sounds like the same fucking bullshit that such guys tend to use to end an affair. Barbrey certainly believes it, but that doesn't make it true. - Or, even if it was true, it still doesn't mean that he didn't use it as a convenient excuse to get rid of Barbrey.

And yes, it is entirely possible that Ashara was merely a fling for him, but I was trying to give him some more credit than I usually do :-)

[Mayura]

Whoever bedded Ashara, it had to become public knowledge for her to be sent away from KL. If it was Brandon it might indeed explain why he decided to pay a visit to Riverrun afterwards.

I assume most people assumed Ashara had a relationship with Ned because Ned came back from Starfall with a baby he claimed was his bastard as Ashara (allegedly) threw herself from the tower. But Barristan, by saying it's possible Ashara grieved for the man who dishonored her, seems to confirm the man in question died during the Rebellion. And his further comments about her "turning to Stark" definitely make me think it was Brandon.

As to what Brandon wanted by sleeping with Ashara, maybe he indeed wanted to show his disagreement with the match his father had made for him. Maybe he really did made a promise to Ashara to break the engagement and to come find her, hence why Brandon went to meet his bethrothed to Riverrun right after Harrenhal. Then it's possible that, by meeting Cat and fighting for her hand with Petyr, Brandon changed her mind and decided to go through with the Stark/Tully wedding. Hence turning Ashara into an unwed mother-to-be carrying his bastard and she was sent away from KL to Starfall.

OR, crackpot theory (behold this one): the only accounts we have from Brandon's visit to Riverrun are through the memories of Cat and Petyr. It is also possible Brandon went to Riverrun to break the marriage agreement in person (disregarding the arrangement as Robb did after him) and that Hoster was the only one to possess the information. Then, before the word of the broken engagement could spread, Brandon and his knights were killed by Aerys along with Rickard. Therefore, nobody knew of the broken bethrothal but Hoster Tully. And as Brandon and Rickard were dead, well... Hoster bargained with Ned to have him marry Cat instead of Brandon and thus his daughter was getting the heir to WF after all. Cat and co were never told and, when we met Hoster in the books, he was already half mad/sick. (crackpot much, sorry ^^) (oh and as to why Brandon would have fought Petyr for Cat's hand anyway, I think it could just have been because Brandon the wild wolf couldn't refuse the challenge)

[Mayura]

The problem here is that is sounds like the same fucking bullshit that such guys tend to use to end an affair. Barbrey certainly believes it, but that doesn't make it true. - Or, even if it was true, it still doesn't mean that he didn't use it as a convenient excuse to get rid of Barbrey.

And yes, it is entirely possible that Ashara was merely a fling for him, but I was trying to give him some more credit than I usually do :-)

Oh we completely agree, I am sure Brandon was feeding BS to Barbrey Dustin on that account ;) which is why I used the """" afterwards.

[Ygrain]

Whoever bedded Ashara, it had to become public knowledge for her to be sent away from KL. If it was Brandon it might indeed explain why he decided to pay a visit to Riverrun afterwards.

I assume most people assumed Ashara had a relationship with Ned because Ned came back from Starfall with a baby he claimed was his bastard as Ashara (allegedly) threw herself from the tower. But Barristan, by saying it's possible Ashara grieved for the man who dishonored her, seems to confirm the man in question died during the Rebellion. And his further comments about her "turning to Stark" definitely make me think it was Brandon.

As to what Brandon wanted by sleeping with Ashara, maybe he indeed wanted to show his disagreement with the match his father had made for him. Maybe he really did made a promise to Ashara to break the engagement and to come find her, hence why Brandon went to meet his bethrothed to Riverrun right after Harrenhal. Then it's possible that, by meeting Cat and fighting for her hand with Petyr, Brandon changed her mind and decided to go through with the Stark/Tully wedding. Hence turning Ashara into an unwed mother-to-be carrying his bastard and she was sent away from KL to Starfall.

OR, crackpot theory (behold this one): the only accounts we have from Brandon's visit to Riverrun are through the memories of Cat and Petyr. It is also possible Brandon went to Riverrun to break the marriage agreement in person (disregarding the arrangement as Robb did after him) and that Hoster was the only one to possess the information. Then, before the word of the broken engagement could spread, Brandon and his knights were killed by Aerys along with Rickard. Therefore, nobody knew of the broken bethrothal but Hoster Tully. And as Brandon and Rickard were dead, well... Hoster bargained with Ned to have him marry Cat instead of Brandon and thus his daughter was getting the heir to WF after all. Cat and co were never told and, when we met Hoster in the books, he was already half mad/sick. (crackpot much, sorry ^^) (oh and as to why Brandon would have fought Petyr for Cat's hand anyway, I think it could just have been because Brandon the wild wolf couldn't refuse the challenge)

IIRC, the duel took place only later, practically before Lyanna's abduction - people asked GRRM if Littlefinger was somehow involved in the beginning of the Rebellion and he seemed surprised, saying the LF was recovering from his wounds at that time.

[DominusNovus]

I don't mean to derail, but the opening post mentioning the possibility Brandon dishonoring Ashara...

Has anyone ever put a Brandon + Ashara = Jon theory forward?