True Detective Thread VII... or is it Thread I? Time is a circle

[Greg B]

Just finished reading the threads and wanted to make a couple comments.

1. This has been bugging me from the just about the first page of the first thread. Rust's obsession with the case, his protecting the boy in the stash house -- none of it "contradicts" his philosophical pessimism. The idea seems to be that if he holds that position, he shouldn't do anything, or he should do "bad" stuff. It's an old, freshman-level critique of nihilistic philosophies. But where does the "should" come from? Someone like Rust can live his life (or not) however he likes, depending on his constitution or programming. In fact, Rust's substance abuse *and* his obsessive rogue crusading, Marty's carefully constructed (and then destructed) Everyman life and worldview, revival-tent religion, and the generations-spanning Hastur cult are all equally valid ways of being in a world where philosophical pessimism is true.

2. It's amusing that a series in which a generations-spanning Hastur cult is slowly revealed is perceived by some as less satisfying than "OMG Maggie did it!!!"

3. If the cult is real, and it has rituals, then it's unclear to me why the posed victims must be evidence of some split within the group. They are ceremonial and have a ritual significance. Raped and murdered little girls also have a -- different -- ritual significance. The wreath placed at the scene suggesting a portal made me wonder whether Dora Lange's death was an ascendance ritual -- she earned the right to pass into Carcosa. Perhaps in the cult game she was a winner rather than a loser. This (and many other explanations rooted in ritual signficance) would explain why the posed executions don't happen every day.

4. I think it's very likely that Audrey was sexually abused. I suspect the Hastur cult is an allegory for the kind of mundane abuse she suffered, so that the narrative is exploring the theme on two levels at the same time. The few and fleeting symbols (the spiral drawing, the black stars in her painting) are a literary device to tie the two together. I could be wrong.

5. I love this work and a Season 2 is going to have a really difficult act to follow.

[Prince of the North]

Just finished reading the threads and wanted to make a couple comments.

1. This has been bugging me from the just about the first page of the first thread. Rust's obsession with the case, his protecting the boy in the stash house -- none of it "contradicts" his philosophical pessimism. The idea seems to be that if he holds that position, he shouldn't do anything, or he should do "bad" stuff. It's an old, freshman-level critique of nihilistic philosophies. But where does the "should" come from? Someone like Rust can live his life (or not) however he likes, depending on his constitution or programming. In fact, Rust's substance abuse *and* his obsessive rogue crusading, Marty's carefully constructed (and then destructed) Everyman life and worldview, revival-tent religion, and the generations-spanning Hastur cult are all equally valid ways of being in a world where philosophical pessimism is true.

You're right, I can't speak for others but, for me, it's just acknowledging that Rust's actions frequently betray his words. For me, it is simply questioning how much Rust ever really internalized that nihilistic philosophy he was spouting because, for a guy who basically says nothing matters, things like truth, life, innocence, justice, etc. seem to matter very much :dunno:

[Francis Buck]

I think the answer to why the killings were so public (all two of them) is that they were simply done by the lawnmower guy of his own accord. It doesn't make sense for them to be acts of the larger cult, since they're just immediately covered up (or attempted to cover up) anyway -- like Tuttle trying to assign a task force. The lawnmower guy's just doing this stuff because he's a crazy serial killer that has been influenced by the cult his whole life.

[Sci-2]

This has been bugging me from the just about the first page of the first thread. Rust's obsession with the case, his protecting the boy in the stash house -- none of it "contradicts" his philosophical pessimism.

I think people questioning whether Rust held to his philosophical musings comes from NP himself saying to question whether Rust is a pessimist.

If the cult is real, and it has rituals, then it's unclear to me why the posed victims must be evidence of some split within the group. They are ceremonial and have a ritual significance. Raped and murdered little girls also have a -- different -- ritual significance. The wreath placed at the scene suggesting a portal made me wonder whether Dora Lange's death was an ascendance ritual -- she earned the right to pass into Carcosa. Perhaps in the cult game she was a winner rather than a loser. This (and many other explanations rooted in ritual signficance) would explain why the posed executions don't happen every day.

Agreed. I think what we see as victims are blessed ones to the cult.

4. I think it's very likely that Audrey was sexually abused. I suspect the Hastur cult is an allegory for the kind of mundane abuse she suffered, so that the narrative is exploring the theme on two levels at the same time. The few and fleeting symbols (the spiral drawing, the black stars in her painting) are a literary device to tie the two together. I could be wrong.

Good way to look at it.

[aceluby]

I think the answer to why the killings were so public (all two of them) is that they were simply done by the lawnmower guy of his own accord. It doesn't make sense for them to be acts of the larger cult, since they're just immediately covered up (or attempted to cover up) anyway -- like Tuttle trying to assign a task force. The lawnmower guy's just doing this stuff because he's a crazy serial killer that has been influenced by the cult his whole life.

Am I wrong or was only DL the only one actually publicized. I believe the second was not, which leads me to believe that if they covered up that one, they could have covered up many before.

[Castel]

You're right, I can't speak for others but, for me, it's just acknowledging that Rust's actions frequently betray his words. For me, it is simply questioning how much Rust ever really internalized that nihilistic philosophy he was spouting because, for a guy who basically says nothing matters, things like truth, life, innocence, justice, etc. seem to matter very much :dunno:

The thing that I personally find interesting is why it matters so much to people, this idea that this is this chink in the armor of nihilism. I suppose it makes non-nihilists of all? Is this preferable?

Also: Rust provides a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the premiere: he is programmed to be this way. Rust is not just some freshman philosophy major discovering that he can claim that there's no objective meaning with impunity, a lot of his beliefs are tied up in his view of biology and physics and philosophy of mind. If you have an optimistic view of human beings and their cognitive ability then you will find this supposed contradiction much more of a problem than someone who sees people the way Rust does. As far as Rust is concerned this is how people act because that is how they are built to behave.

Of course there is the already-mentioned criticism of this position: nihilism does not compel nor does it force the leap from no meaning to no concern.

[Anatúrinbor]

5. I love this work and a Season 2 is going to have a really difficult act to follow.

Yeah, it's going to be a tall order to top this one, and people will keep comparing the two. NP btw has said that he already came up with a character as good as Rust (according to him). He talked about three characters actually, which is what it will come down to in the end.

On a side note, I don't know if there is any info on the setting for season 2 but I'm hoping it's something completely unrelated to the current.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNSgmEjmGDE

And thus, the meme is born.

Perfect film choice, perfect timing. I lol'd hard. :D

[Sci-2]

Rust provides a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the premiere: he is programmed to be this way.

I think this is where people admittedly start finding philosophy kinda silly. Anyone can use this explanation of being raised, being programmed, ordained by the Hand of God and so on so nihilism - or whatever philosophy in this vein one wants to defend - always wins if one allows for this escape hatch.

The layperson version of nihilism [which seems like the only version relevant to this thread] seems contradicted by Rust's actions.

[red snow]

very creepy voice, definitely not lawnmower guy.

My working knowledge of Cajun is Gambit - so I'm no judge.

I think the answer to why the killings were so public (all two of them) is that they were simply done by the lawnmower guy of his own accord. It doesn't make sense for them to be acts of the larger cult, since they're just immediately covered up (or attempted to cover up) anyway -- like Tuttle trying to assign a task force. The lawnmower guy's just doing this stuff because he's a crazy serial killer that has been influenced by the cult his whole life.

While lawnmower man is likely to be the culprit - it's not locked in. We only know he was the bad one with the younger folks. That said the guy at the garage's recollection just from meeting him once was the most disturbing for me yet (out of a long list of scarred man descriptions). This was a man who just met him the once and was unscathed yet he's still disturbed by the encounter.

As for the Hart watching TV meme - I think there's a whole bunch they could do just focusing on WH and MM. McCog's acceptance speech this week could illicit a similar response.

[Castel]

I think this is where people admittedly start finding philosophy kinda silly. Anyone can use this explanation of being raised, being programmed, ordained by the Hand of God and so on so nihilism - or whatever philosophy in this vein one wants to defend - always wins if one allows for this escape hatch.

The layperson version of nihilism [which seems like the only version relevant to this thread] seems contradicted by Rust's actions.

Why is the layperson's understanding of nihilism the only relevant one? Rust certainly doesn't just speak about "basic" nihilism. Nor is it actually contradicted at all. I mean: if "there is no objective meaning" was the end of the discussion then where would we get existentialism from? Really, it's the other stuff Rust piles on that may actually provide a contradiction.

As for the bolded: does this mean that laypeople also find determinism silly because it allows for an escape hatch for whatever action or argument? And what of the escape hatch in:"You chose to do something that has no meaning therefore you are not a nihilist"? Is the idea that human beings rationalize to suit both their nature and environment really that big a blow to philosophy's legitimacy?

[Mark Antony]

While lawnmower man is likely to be the culprit - it's not locked in.

Inside the episode NP says we meet

The Killer at the end, This makes me think Francis Buck is on point

[Sci-2]

Is the idea that human beings rationalize to suit both their nature and environment really that big a blow to philosophy's legitimacy?

I think for the show it is.

Rust talks about debts to Marty, and seems to think people are good and evil. For the basic, Lebowskian definition of nihilism I think Rust shows he isn't a nihilist.

I'm sure there's arguments one can examine in various texts about whether that's the above actions and morals are allowable in nihilism but for the limited frame of this show I think it makes more sense to keep the definition of nihilism close to a layperson understanding.

[red snow]

Inside the episode NP says we meet

The Killer at the end, This makes me think Francis Buck is on point

In that case it's sealed then. I thought that was most likely the case but it wasn't confirmed within the show - yet.

[Prince of the North]

The thing that I personally find interesting is why it matters so much to people, this idea that this is this chink in the armor of nihilism. I suppose it makes non-nihilists of all? Is this preferable?

Also: Rust provides a perfectly reasonable explanation for his actions in the premiere: he is programmed to be this way. Rust is not just some freshman philosophy major discovering that he can claim that there's no objective meaning with impunity, a lot of his beliefs are tied up in his view of biology and physics and philosophy of mind. If you have an optimistic view of human beings and their cognitive ability then you will find this supposed contradiction much more of a problem than someone who sees people the way Rust does. As far as Rust is concerned this is how people act because that is how they are built to behave.

Of course there is the already-mentioned criticism of this position: nihilism does not compel nor does it force the leap from no meaning to no concern.

Well, for me, it's not a critique of "nihilism" at all. It's simply noting that Rust appears to not be as much of a nihilist as he would have everyone believe. Just as one example, he says something along the lines of "imagine the arrogance of bringing a child into the world" (seems pretty existentially nihilistic to me) and then we see him protect a young boy during the stash house robbery and not kill anyone while trying to escape even though he's running for his life (hmm...seems like maybe he does think at least some life matters after all).

[Rust_Hart]

I really am interested in seeing how the whole British accent thing plays into this.

[Sci-2]

Oh and another version of that meme, this time revealing the dark truth about Rust Cohle.

Why would anyone look away...

:drool:

eta: Actually, MM really has no ass worth getting excited about...

[Castel]

I think for the show it is.

Rust talks about debts to Marty, and seems to think people are good and evil. For the basic, Lebowskian definition of nihilism I think Rust shows he isn't a nihilist.

I'm sure there's arguments one can examine in various texts about whether that's the above actions and morals are allowable in nihilism but for the limited frame of this show I think it makes more sense to keep the definition of nihilism close to a layperson understanding.

I guess I have a different understanding of the layperson position? I mean, this is extremely narrow. And not only is it narrow, it kills all further discussion by essentially declaring the analysis of words and their context meaningless. In that sort of situation what is being said? You cannot clarify or challenge anything. This layperson understanding is victory through redefinition.

I also question how many laypeople believe this. If this was so all atheists would all be floored by this.

But yes, I fully admit, under this definition of nihilism, Rust is not a nihilist. But then, under this definition, no one is. If we're talking about convenient positions I have to hand it to whoever came up with the one that lets someone accuse a nihilist of being a secret apostate because they said it was good to eat steak.

Well, for me, it's not a critique of "nihilism" at all. It's simply noting that Rust appears to not be as much of a nihilist as he would have everyone believe. Just as one example, he says something along the lines of "imagine the arrogance of bringing a child into the world" (seems pretty existentially nihilistic to me) and then we see him protect a young boy during the stash house robbery and not kill anyone while trying to escape even though he's running for his life (hmm...seems like maybe he does think at least some life matters after all).

Antinatalism is not necessarily emotionlessness or callousness. It is often the opposite. As for "life matters": it matters- at that point- to Rust. What is says depends. But if we're going with Sci's definition then he is perhaps not a nihilist because of it.

[Sci-2]

I guess I have a different understanding of the layperson position? I mean, this is extremely narrow. And not only is it narrow, it kills all further discussion by essentially declaring the analysis of words and their context meaningless. In that sort of situation what is being said? You cannot clarify or challenge anything. This layperson understanding is victory through redefinition.

I'm just going by the frame of the show. Cohle talks about how when people die they welcome it. We see him looking at pictures of dead kids when he gives his speech.

Then he tells that kid to lie in the tub. Seems to me these contradictions are what NP was talking about when he said to look for signs of who Cohle really is.

All the other stuff about nihilism and its relation to atheism seems to be about something other than the show. I mean the last 2 episodes didn't really have much of anything to do with Cohle's philosophical musings.

[Castel]

Fair enough. I see what you're saying.