True Detective Thread VII... or is it Thread I? Time is a circle

[The Monkey]

And it continues. Marty watches the Star Wars Holiday Special:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd6nx-KnTwo

[unJon]

No. Hume's skeptic claims the fire does not exist, but flees from it anyway. Rust claims his debt has no ultimate meaning, that it's just part of his programming, but that programming means that he experiences the debt nonetheless. Rust's experience of the debt is real even though God didn't give it to him, he didn't choose it, and the universe couldn't care less whether he pays it or not.

You are being selective. Hume's skeptic flees from te fire because he is programmed to. Or put another way, Rust is not programmed to act or feel like a nihilist. It's a simple contradiction of thought and action in both cases.

[Anatúrinbor]

And it continues. Marty watches the Star Wars Holiday Special:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd6nx-KnTwo

That 'No!' gets me every time.

[Greg B]

You are being selective. Hume's skeptic flees from te fire because he is programmed to. Or put another way, Rust is not programmed to act or feel like a nihilist. It's a simple contradiction of thought and action in both cases.

Our discussion is a flat circle. Time to tie it off.

[Ran]

Random question for those who remember the earlier episodes better than I: I can't recall, but is Chambers and The King in Yellow ever directly referenced in True Detective? That is, has Rust pinned down that some of the source of the pagan hogwash is this particular story?

[SpaceChampion]

Random question for those who remember the earlier episodes better than I: I can't recall, but is Chambers and The King in Yellow ever directly referenced in True Detective? That is, has Rust pinned down that some of the source of the pagan hogwash is this particular story?

No.

[Anatúrinbor]

Random question for those who remember the earlier episodes better than I: I can't recall, but is Chambers and The King in Yellow ever directly referenced in True Detective? That is, has Rust pinned down that some of the source of the pagan hogwash is this particular story?

Hmm... I wonder if TD exists in a universe where that story has not been written.

[Francis Buck]

Random question for those who remember the earlier episodes better than I: I can't recall, but is Chambers and The King in Yellow ever directly referenced in True Detective? That is, has Rust pinned down that some of the source of the pagan hogwash is this particular story?

Nope, and NP said it would remain outside of the series.

Hmm... I wonder if TD exists in a universe where that story has not been written.

I think that's basically the case. NP actually had a lot of the story figured out before ever making the King in Yellow connection. Originally it was the Cypress King and the Stone Court.

[Ran]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Interesting.

This makes this an alternate history, doesn't it? Which means it can be nominated for a Hugo, I expect.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Interesting.

This makes this an alternate history, doesn't it? Which means it can be nominated for a Hugo, I expect.

I think that would be a pretty tough idea to pass.

It would have stronger legs getting some kind of horror award. Do the Hugos cover Horror, or just supernatural horror?

[Tobin]

NP said, in one of the "after the episode" interviews that Rust talked and talked while trying to get info about what the agents really had. I don't know how much he really believes in his philosophical sermons v. messing with the agents.

How did Rust hurt Maggie? Maggie used him and his weakness and affection for her in a most humiliating way. The fact that he kicked her out of the bar so many years later only means that it still hurts him very much. He's over Marty, but he's certainly not over Maggie.

I don't think that much of anything Rust does isn't without some planning/forethought.

It's pretty clear that Rust was jerking the detectives' chains at various points, trying to see how far he could push them until they had to leave the room to collect themselves.

One of the little things that is a subtle indicator, is how he looks at them closely after he tells them to get him a beer. Rust eyes shift back and forth, as if looking to see if they understood how they were setting themselves up for an inadmissible recording by complying.

This also brought to mind Rust's interview with Francis: He got the confession that the cops were looking for, it was a done deal and the guy was looking at hard prison or the death penalty.

Until Francis showed he had information that Rust needed.

Rust is calm, cool, and collected at every other fight we see him in - even when he and Ginger are dodging through a riot. So him going off on Francis is out of character (more something like Marty would do) - no matter how unprepared he might have been for the news.

I think Rust intentionally roughed up Francis so that the confession he had just gotten would be voided out - giving him more time to try to get the Yellow King's identity out of Francis before he was sent up the river.

Totally agree about his feelings for Maggie.

[Prince of the North]

So I'm not the only one? Wheew, was feeling weird for that entire conversation...

But yeah PotN if we're going with what Sci says and limiting ourselves to Rust's actions he has contradictions. But then, Rust doesn't just claim basic nihilism,he claims something (LIFE IS MALIGNANTLY USELESS) that he has to defend but clearly cannot.

Also, the quote about Nietzsche led me to what is probably going to be my favorite Sopranos clip this month. God how I would have loved to pull this shit on my parents.

Yes, I'm content to simply enjoy the contradictions - makes the characters much more real to me ;)

Heh, and I remember that Sopranos clip! That was awesome! I especially loved AJ not being able to pronounce "Nietzsche" correctly and Tony telling his shrink that he teaches AJ to love and respect his mother ("Do as I say and not as I do", eh, Tony? ;)) Hmm...it strikes me that Tony and Marty have that sort of thing in common and that maybe Marty could have benefitted from some therapy back in the day.

[Ran]

I think that would be a pretty tough idea to pass.

It would have stronger legs getting some kind of horror award. Do the Hugos cover Horror, or just supernatural horror?

Past Hugo winners have also won the Bram Stoker Award for Horror, so I don't really think it'd be a big issue. We shall see. I shall certainly be nominating it.

[Sci-2]

Couple this with all the kids' stuff and why Maggie is even needed as a character in 2012 and I'm going to be very surprised if the family doesn't have any ties to the case.

You know I never thought about it but Maggie could've molested Audrey, or exposed her to some weird shit to see if she was a fitting nun for the Yellow King.

It makes sense why there's a picture in her house that is akin to the asylum wall. Her seduction of Rust breaks the partnership up between Marty & Rust.

But we see her going to the bar, almost fucking a stranger, so I don't know if that's the connection...

[Relic]

Finally got to watch the episode. Great call by brady re: the lawnmower man a few weeks back. The cult thing was pretty much correct but that's all i was right about. I guess we can eliminate Marty as being complicit, right?

[Kalbear]

"That doesn’t lessen the potential validity of the ideas he expresses, and that is what I finally think is disturbing about the show so far."

That also doesn't mean that Rust is a nihilst. Only that he's espousing those views. That's sort of the point I and others have been making - that Rust says a lot of this stuff but doesn't actually act like he believes it.

On Maggie suffering: I wasn't talking about this episode or the prior one. I was talking about (for example) in eps 3 and 4 where he's basically telling Maggie to fuck off and sticking up for Marty (in a very odd way). He's needlessly cruel to her at times because its honest, but the notion that he wants to stop suffering? Come on. The obvious thought there is that if he really wanted to end suffering but also thought death was a sweet release he'd just go around capping people in the head. He doesn't do that, so logically there's something else there.

[Maithanet]

Caught up with the thread after I was unable to watch Ep 7 until last night. Couple of new(ish) thoughts:

Does anyone think that Hart's "I don't hold on to the past, that's the kind of thing that gives you ass cancer" could be a reference to Cohle having cancer/a terminal disease? Because Cohle is most certainly holding on to the past, and a lot of his actions in 2012 seem like "I need to do this before I die".

Also, love the accents on this show. The Ledouix mechanic that they interviewed in last episode was great.

[Baitac]

I don't think that much of anything Rust does isn't without some planning/forethought.

It's pretty clear that Rust was jerking the detectives' chains at various points, trying to see how far he could push them until they had to leave the room to collect themselves.

One of the little things that is a subtle indicator, is how he looks at them closely after he tells them to get him a beer. Rust eyes shift back and forth, as if looking to see if they understood how they were setting themselves up for an inadmissible recording by complying.

This also brought to mind Rust's interview with Francis: He got the confession that the cops were looking for, it was a done deal and the guy was looking at hard prison or the death penalty.

Until Francis showed he had information that Rust needed.

Rust is calm, cool, and collected at every other fight we see him in - even when he and Ginger are dodging through a riot. So him going off on Francis is out of character (more something like Marty would do) - no matter how unprepared he might have been for the news.

I think Rust intentionally roughed up Francis so that the confession he had just gotten would be voided out - giving him more time to try to get the Yellow King's identity out of Francis before he was sent up the river.

Totally agree about his feelings for Maggie.

Yes, yes, yes. Also, he specifically offhandedly asked the agents to get him some beer and said something like: What?, is this supposed to be admissible?

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Interesting.

This makes this an alternate history, doesn't it? Which means it can be nominated for a Hugo, I expect.

Always thinking, always thinking. This is good. I'm getting ready to cast this year's votes. Don't forget this for next year, though. :) Also, Ran: how the heck did you figure out the Courir de Mardi Gras thing? Pleeeeease tell me. :)

[Mark Antony]

Re-watching episode 7 has me thinking how brilliant Woody has been. MM is getting all the love but man Woody has been awesome. I hope he gets nominated for an emmy.

[Ixodes]

Agree 100%. Episode 7 was all about Marty and Harrelson delivered. He's been every bit as good as MM.