Ukraine III: appropriate handling required

[Inigima]

Reports coming that Russia claims to have run a (successful) ICBM test.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Reports coming that Russia claims to have run a (successful) ICBM test.

Source?

[Dinsdale!]

Which is why the first victims of the Soviet revolution were the members of the Russian imperial family and everybody who supported an Empire, I guess? Quite a disguise!

Fuck what? My personal opinion, based on the stuff I'm experiencing myself for my 40 years on this planet?

You know, it's telling that for two days I'm debating this delicate and emotional and passionate matter with many posters that strongly disagree with me, but your post is the first one that used some sort of petty insult and foul language.

On a personal note, I have worked with many Serbians and Croats. The Yugoslav situation was a tragedy, and the West's handling of the ending of Communism in Europe was vile.

[Dinsdale!]

Thank You, we are not politicians and diplomats and we should not have to parse our language like we are. There's one fellow, I'm not naming any names but every time he/she posts its like fingernails scratching a chalkboard. People need to tone it down a little. Having said that how does Turkey fit it into this. I can understand Poland and the Baltic states getting nervous by why Turkey?

Turkey is the patron of the Crimean Tatars. It also is the principal patron of Georgia. Other than Ukraine, Romania and Georgia, Turkey is encircled by its historical enemies.

It is not clear that Russia's intention is to make Turkey feel insecure, but that is the effect.

[Shryke]

Reports coming that Russia claims to have run a (successful) ICBM test.

Coming from Reuters:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/as-ukraine-tension-flares-russia-testfires-a-icbm-20140305-hvg45.html

[Inigima]

Source?

http://m.theage.com.au/world/as-ukraine-tension-flares-russia-testfires-a-icbm-20140305-hvg45.html

The articles all seem to rely on the Russian Defense Ministry's assertions, but since it's saber-rattling it doesn't much matter whether they did or not, it seems to me -- the intent is signaling.

[Dinsdale!]

In case anyone is wondering, the Ukraine invasion was allowed to happen because of Benghazi. At least, that's what Lindsey Graham's twitter account says. His position is if Obama was strong during the Benghazi / Syria incidents, then none of this would ever happen. How is it that our government is governed by these people? The world really doesn't revolve around American action or inaction.

Senators running their mouths off about domestic politics is idiocy.

Senators running their mouths off about a foreign crisis is dangerous idiocy.

He disgusts me. I hope to god he's not saying this behind closed doors as well.

[Miodrag]

On a personal note, I have worked with many Serbians and Croats. The Yugoslav situation was a tragedy, and the West's handling of the ending of Communism in Europe was vile.

Both Serbs and Croats were saying the same thing? That's interesting. I mean, it happens very seldom that we share popular opinions on anything, that's how big an antagonism between Serbs and Croats is. If both happened to tell you the same impressions, it speaks volumes about the Western moves we're talking about.

And, I know this is going to sound crazy, but even the 90s were not as bad as it is today. Those were violent, unstable, turbulent years, but at least people kept fighting: against one another, against the system, against the injustice... Nowadays, the whole region looks like it fell into a total despair. You can see desperate people anywhere you look. And I travel a lot in the region: everywhere, there are people without hope, without energy, without any kind of enthusiasm... Small wonder suicide rates are as high as ever. It's the state of collective depression. And then I happen to meet some Western tourists here in Belgrade, and they're all like: people here in Serbia/Balkans are much more happy than where we came from. Honestly, that's what many among them said. I've never heard anyone from Russia, or China, or Africa, or Latin America, to state anything similar, even though I met quite a few of them here. But visitors from Western Europe (and USA, to a smaller extent): all the time. Not all of them, but very often. Even professional athletes, like basketball players (many Americans play here), are saying the same. No offense to athletes, but it always surprise me those people even think of those issues in their playing days. And I can't help but wonder: if people coming from where we're supposed to be headed, claim we're happier than they are, than why are we heading there at all?!

To be clear, I'm just saying what other people said. I was visiting West for a couple of times, but I've never lived there. I've never been there for more than two weeks, which is hardly enough to get the full picture of a culture of the place.

[Shryke]

Both Serbs and Croats were saying the same thing? That's interesting. I mean, it happens very seldom that we share popular opinions on anything, that's how big an antagonism between Serbs and Croats is. If both happened to tell you the same impressions, it speaks volumes about the Western moves we're talking about.

And, I know this is going to sound crazy, but even the 90s were not as bad as it is today. Those were violent, unstable, turbulent years, but at least people kept fighting: against one another, against the system, against the injustice... Nowadays, the whole region looks like it fell into a total despair. You can see desperate people anywhere you look. And I travel a lot in the region: everywhere, there are people without hope, without energy, without any kind of enthusiasm... Small wonder suicide rates are as high as ever. It's the state of collective depression. And then I happen to meet some Western tourists here in Belgrade, and they're all like: people here in Serbia/Balkans are much more happy than where we came from. Honestly, that's what many among them said. I've never heard anyone from Russia, or China, or Africa, or Latin America, to state anything similar, even though I met quite a few of them here. But visitors from Western Europe (and USA, to a smaller extent): all the time. Not all of them, but very often. Even professional athletes, like basketball players (many Americans play here), are saying the same. No offense to athletes, but it always surprise me those people even think of those issues in their playing days. And I can't help but wonder: if people coming from where we're supposed to be headed, claim we're happier than they are, than why are we heading there at all?!

To be clear, I'm just saying what other people said. I was visiting West for a couple of times, but I've never lived there. I've never been there for more than two weeks, which is hardly enough to get the full picture of a culture of the place.

Because likely they aren't actually accurate in that assessment and just basing it on "we're having so much fun on vacation". Or on "these people party like crazy fuckers".

Just as your own sentiments about the nature of people around you are coloured by your own biases.

[polishgenius]

What generally doesn't happen, however, is calling the country that emerged out of the bloody revolution exactly the same as he country before the revolution, which is what you did. You claim that Imperial Russia continued to live through the regime that violently overthrown Russian imperial authority, changed the name, changed the borders, and changed the political and social system of the country. Everything was changed radically, but Russian imperialism somehow managed not only to survive, but to become the dominant factor once again - is that what you're saying? If yes, then sorry to say, but it doesn't make a lot of sense, nor is it in agreement with historical facts, like the one with Crimea: once again, what kind of Russian imperialists would take Crimea away from Russia and give it to Ukraine?!

They were literally marking the anniversary of Ukraine originally joining the old Russian Empire. Which they were doing because Ukraine was still part of the new one. Definitely marking a clear divide between old Russia and the Soviet Union, I agree.

Again, you're confusing Soviet Union for Russia.

I'm not confusing them, I'm deliberately treating Russia as the diplomatic, economic and cultural successor to the Soviets, because that is what it is.

As for 'not racketeering' - well, they're limited by their much-lessened power, obviously. But speaking as a Pole, even one who doesn't live there, I can confidently tell you that the Russians really don't like countries from their former sphere of influence making independent moves away from that.

Hell, just look at Ukraine.

[Angalin]

<Mod note>

You can disagree all you like, but disagree politely, do not reference how much other posters irritate you, and address the issue rather than the person. Further infractions will result in bans.

[Shryke]

BBC update:

19:42:

A crew of a Ukrainian navy command ship has fought off an attempted takeover of the vessel by armed men, Ukraine's Interfax news agency reports.

19:45:

The armed men approached the Slavutich vessel in a tug boat, but failed in their attempt to seize the ship, Ukrainian navy spokesman Vitaliy Zvyahintsev was quoted as saying.

That's likely not good for easing tensions here.

[Ghjhero]

BBC update:

That's likely not good for easing tensions here.

Any details on the fight? Was it a firefight with casualties or more of a fist fight type thing?

[Shryke]

Any details on the fight? Was it a firefight with casualties or more of a fist fight type thing?

Unknown. I'm guessing fairly minor though. But again, guess.

[Werthead]

Hakija Meholjic, who was a high ranking Bosnian military official during the war and among the closest allies of Bosnia's then-president Alija Izetbegovic, states that back in the 1995, some time before Srebrenica happened, Izetbegovic himself told in one of the headquarter's meetings that Bill Clinton asked him, Izetbegovic, to orchestrate some massacre with at least 5.000 deaths, in order for NATO to have a reason to intervene in Bosnia.

Bill Clinton did not order or authorise the Srebenica Massacre. America dragged its heels in the Balkans and in Kosovo to such an extent that even the Germans were more enthusiastic about getting involved, and modern Germany loathes military intervention if it can possibly avoid it (someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the Kosovo operation remains the only time the German Air Force has fired shots in anger since the end of WWII). It took the French and the British governments alternating phone calls to Clinton for days to get him to do anything at all. And a guy who couldn't keep getting some jollies off an intern secret was never going to keep that secret. The United States wanted to stay out of the Bosnian and Kosovo situations almost no matter the cost, and had to be almost bullied into it by EU nations. In the case of the Bosnian War itself, Clinton was getting rung up and cajoled into doing things by John Major, which is just plain embarrassing.

Right, let's forget that armed paramilitary forces illegally overthrown the president and the government in Ukraine

Who was a criminal nutjob who was squandering the country's wealth on private zoos and toy galleons, and whom no-one even in the east or Crimea was that sorry to see go. They objected to how it was done, but once it was clear what he'd done, they were as angry as anyone. Even the most pro-Russian hardliners I've seen interviewed said they hated him, though in their case more for 'running away' when the heat turned up.

and made both threats and attempts to occupy the Russian-populated Crimea area

Citation needed.

Is that the essence of your message here? If it is, count me as appalled, to say the least.

You just said that Bill Clinton ordered the Srebenica massacre, the inarguable and indisputable brutal murder of 7,000 unarmed men by units of the Serbian army, which is one step away from Holocaust denialism in my book. So, yeah, you being appalled is not something I am really interested in.

You have to realize that a lot of the boarders, being "of the West", are also a product of western education, history, media and, for lack of a better word, propaganda. The same way we are products of their eastern education, history and etc. Far be it for me to try and discern the one and only truth about every geopolitical event in our modern history - I lack trustworthy information sources, so do you. There are perhaps a handful of people on the entire planet, who know the full truth about the late 20th and 21st century's history and I doubt any of them are on this board.

This is false equivalence.

Eastern Europe was under the rule of a totalitarian state which exercised total information control over every aspect of its citizens' lives for almost half a century (and some parts, for another thirty years before that). Almost every single word that came out of the media of former Soviet countries in that time was propaganda. At times this was useful: the Soviet use of information to rally its citizens to defeat Nazi Germany was extremely successful.

In the West, a (mostly) free media has been in operation for decades. Western newspapers and television reports have brought down governments and corporations, exposed corruption, lying and greed in everything from the heart of government to private companies to individuals. An American president was forced out of office effectively due to a newspaper investigation by just two reporters. There is nothing equivalent in the history of eastern bloc countries. Newspapers and the media sung Stalin's praises until Khruschev told them Stalin was awful, and they immediately changed their tune and said how bad he was.

Does Western media swallow BS lies from government on occasion? Sure. But a deeper investigation is never far away. During the build-up to the Iraq War several British papers supported the attack just because the government said so, or more cynically because war sells newspapers. But others were virulently opposed. The biggest media organisation in the country, the BBC, took a position, as it should have done, of deep scepticism over the claims, to the absolute fury of the government. But they stayed firm and its opinion that the evidence for WMD in Iraq was almost non-existent, was fully validated by unfolding events on the ground (one of the reasons both Labour and Conservative, who supported the invasion, have been intent on gutting and limiting it ever since).

Is the Western media and press to be trusted in all circumstances without question? Fuck no. Just look at Fox News or Sky for that (Sky News this week got confused and reunified the Czech Republic and Slovakia on its maps of eastern Europe, and no-one seemed to notice for a day). But there are certainly news organisations that are sceptical, that do not take everything they hear (from either side) as read and have multiple reporters on multiple sites in the conflict zone and can compare notes. That's how we know that Russian government inarguably lied when they said no ultimatum was issued, when multiple sources all over Ukraine (including in Crimea and in Kiev) heard it coming in. And in the last few days the BBC has been doing exactly what it should do: questioning Russians hard about the actions they are taking and they turning around and asking the Ukrainian interim government what the hell is going on with fascists in their government.

[Kungsmurfen]

Vice's second video update

[3CityApache]

Good to see you're so objective, opposite to someone who'd be, you know, biased against Russia.

By the way, do you think there's something inherently bad in loving Russia? I mean, I do love Russia, I'm in awe of its culture for example (the best literature there ever was, for example). Would you say something's wrong with me because of that? Or with other Serbs that feel the same way about Russia?

And to make things even more complicated, I love Ukrainians, too. I have Ukrainian friends and colleagues. I despise nazis and fascists among Ukrainian people, but that's another matter.

First, I never said or implied I'm objective myself. As a Pole I simply can not be. But there is a difference between having different opinions on something and seeing facts differently.

Second, I see nothing wrong in loving Russia. Well, at least nothing wrong in loving Russians (loving Russia as a political and historical entity somehow leave a bad taste in my mouth indeed). I do love Russians as a nation and many individual ones (and share the opinion on Russian literature). But I also find their conviction of their greatness, giving way to their rulers' imperialism somewhat disturbing.

As for nazis and fascists, I despise them among any nation, especially my own. As much as I despise communists.

[polishgenius]

As for nazis and fascists, I despise them among any nation, especially my own. As much as I despise communists.

A Polish neo-nazi is about the most embarrassing thing imaginable.

[3CityApache]

It is, isn't it? And yet they exist.

[polishgenius]

I know. It's a disgrace really.