New Trailer Coming

[Mr Fixit]

This place really has become the pits. Posters arguing that people are 'mixing up the book and the show', while in the same post examining the words, actions, and thoughts (to some degree) of the characters in the show against those of the characters in the books... Hypocrisy, much? It's seriously weird.

Yup. Pretty insufferable. There isn't a single thread that doesn't get turned into a bash-fest sooner or later. This one, for example, is titled "New Trailer Coming" and yet I don't quite see all that much in here that would fit the bill. Frankly, it drives people away. Who in their right mind would dare brave these treacherous waters after seeing the debris all around? :commie:

[Le Cygne]

Le Cygne, even if you had problems with those points, Sansa won't be smiling at Tyrion anymore in s4 so it's pointless to keep railing about what's already done (s3). She'll give a good P.R. performance at Joff's Wedding as she did in the book but then she'll have no more to worry about on the Lannister front from then on.

I was responding to someone who said the same thing/agreeing, and the reason lots of people are talking about it is, one, we like the book character and two, we are wondering if they are going to return her to book Sansa or not. It has nothing to do with Tyrion, as someone else pointed out, we are afraid she'll be a Littlefinger prop next.

[Konradsmith]

Le Cygne, maybe she's angry because LF was squawking in the saddle and blurting out "Oh, Sansa...er...I mean, Lysa." And then Sansa looks at the camera like Ferris Bueller and says, "Is this twerp for real?"

EDIT to address your response to my other interjection: I don't know why they made it look like the couple had a chance, but what's done is done, as Theon said. They don't have a chance no more. As for her being a LF prop, he certainly thinks she is. Perhaps he'll find out he was mistaken.

[DaveyJoe]

This place really has become the pits. Posters arguing that people are 'mixing up the book and the show', while in the same post examining the words, actions, and thoughts (to some degree) of the characters in the show against those of the characters in the books... Hypocrisy, much? It's seriously weird.

Yeah, I thought that was really bizarre, and then when I point out something similar did happen in the book I just get "well she was really emotional when that happened." Instead of acknowledging the parallels, and how the characterization is pretty much the same because the minor details are different, it's all just dismissed as character butchery because "that didn't happen in the book" ... even though it kind of did.

[Le Cygne]

Le Cygne, maybe she's angry because LF was squawking in the saddle and blurting out "Oh, Sansa...er...I mean, Lysa." And then Sansa looks at the camera like Ferris Bueller and says, "Is the twerp for real?"

EDIT to address your response to my other interjection: I don't know why they made it look like the couple had a chance, but what's done is done, as Theon said. They don't have a chance no more. As for her being a LF prop, he certainly thinks she is. Perhaps he'll find out he was mistaken.

I love it! I will hold onto that thought.

He thinks she is, but it's their job to show us what she's thinking. She's resisting him in her thoughts. The concern among fans is, they won't bother.

Which gets back to the oft stated, they can't show thoughts, but every good (bad, too, for that matter) show or movie I've ever seen does that all the time. There are lots of ways.

[Konradsmith]

BTW Le Cygne, did you see the Vanity Fair shoot of the cast in their costumes? In a video where they're asked who ought to sit the Iron Throne it appeared that Sansa had a different (or updated) dress with a hint of cleavage. Anyhow, you worried that they weren't putting any sexiness in her story. If that dress is in the show (which it would be given its a costume for the show) then they're at least giving her A BIT of sexiness.

[protar]

Well, that's very hard to accept seeing as how Martin himself had countless conversations and exchanges of ideas with D&D long before the show entered production. A reasonable position would be that Martin concluded that David and Dan in fact do have an exceptional understanding of the source material or else he'd have rejected their offer, as he had many times before. After three seasons, I'd say he was definitely right.

I just find it hard to believe that they actually get some of the deeper meanings in the books when they're adapting a series chock full of themes, but then say that "themes are for 8th grade book reports". That and the simplification of characters and plots when the whole crux of the series is it's complex plot and morally ambiguous characters. They're still ambiguous in the show - but only due to the echoes of what Martin wrote. Most of what makes the story so bold and fresh has been stripped or reduced. I wouldn't call doing that understanding the source material and sometimes I can't help but think that D+D just saw swordfights and hot women and thought it'd be cool. Cool is well...cool. But I really dislike writers who sacrifice depth for it.

So far as I'm aware they passed George's litmus test by giving the correct answer to the question of Jon's parentage, but other than that we have no idea of what "tests" he put them through. And given the other offers he had gotten (such as only adapting Dany's storyline), D+D's proposal of a reasonably faithful adaptation must have seemed like a dream come true. And let's not forget that Season 1 remained 90% faithful to the source material. I'd wager that that is the sort of adaptation Martin thought he was going to get 8 seasons of. Not the looser (though still faithful I will admit) adaptations of seasons 2 and 3.

Additionally D+D were not long time fans of the series. So far as I'm aware they pretty much just read the books the first time around with an eye for adaptation. The fact that they were immediately looking at what could be cut and changed is rather disturbing to me. When it comes to understanding of the books I would certainly put them below many of the long time posters here, Elio and Linda and even Bryan Cogman. Now if that guy was in charge I'd be a lot happier.

[Le Cygne]

BTW Le Cygne, did you see the Vanity Fair shoot of the cast in their costumes? In a video where they're asked who ought to sit the Iron Throne it appeared that Sansa had a different (or updated) dress with a hint of cleavage. Anyhow, you worried that they weren't putting any sexiness in her story. If that dress is in the show (which it would be given its a costume for the show) then they're at least giving her A BIT of sexiness.

Beautiful photographs (and cast)! Love Annie Leibovitz.

[Mr Fixit]

So far as I'm aware they passed George's litmus test by giving the correct answer to the question of Jon's parentage, but other than that we have no idea of what "tests" he put them through. And given the other offers he had gotten (such as only adapting Dany's storyline), D+D's proposal of a reasonably faithful adaptation must have seemed like a dream come true. And let's not forget that Season 1 remained 90% faithful to the source material. I'd wager that that is the sort of adaptation Martin thought he was going to get 8 seasons of. Not the looser (though still faithful I will admit) adaptations of seasons 2 and 3.

Oh come on, Martin most certainly didn't sign off on them just because they knew about R+L=J and wanted to do a TV show. You're giving Martin *and* D&D not enough credit. It's safe to say they talked a great deal about a whole bunch of topics and that Martin liked what he heard.

Anyway, not that it matters. Criticise away, it's your right. I just get riled up when I read such condescending bizarro stuff like "almost anyone could write better than these guys" or "they don't understand the source material". Yeah right. Dan and Dave have lived with these books for, what, 7+ years now. They wake up with them, think about them all day long and go to sleep trying to figure "one more thing". The notion that they aren't "true fans" and that they "don't really understand George's books" must be among the most condescending, self-righteous, and irrational things I've heard.

[Konradsmith]

^Mr Fixit is a hero. Succinctly put.

I'll offer an alternate theory. Maybe GrrM just wanted a chance to hang out with Amanda Peet. If people aren't willing to concede that Benioff is a good writer, then that's their prerogative but if they can't concede that he must've had some moves to win her over...That's the story I want to hear, not how they won over Georgie.

[Rashtibram]

I just find it hard to believe that they actually get some of the deeper meanings in the books when they're adapting a series chock full of themes, but then say that "themes are for 8th grade book reports". That and the simplification of characters and plots when the whole crux of the series is it's complex plot and morally ambiguous characters. They're still ambiguous in the show - but only due to the echoes of what Martin wrote. Most of what makes the story so bold and fresh has been stripped or reduced. I wouldn't call doing that understanding the source material and sometimes I can't help but think that D+D just saw swordfights and hot women and thought it'd be cool. Cool is well...cool. But I really dislike writers who sacrifice depth for it.

So far as I'm aware they passed George's litmus test by giving the correct answer to the question of Jon's parentage, but other than that we have no idea of what "tests" he put them through. And given the other offers he had gotten (such as only adapting Dany's storyline), D+D's proposal of a reasonably faithful adaptation must have seemed like a dream come true. And let's not forget that Season 1 remained 90% faithful to the source material. I'd wager that that is the sort of adaptation Martin thought he was going to get 8 seasons of. Not the looser (though still faithful I will admit) adaptations of seasons 2 and 3.

Additionally D+D were not long time fans of the series. So far as I'm aware they pretty much just read the books the first time around with an eye for adaptation. The fact that they were immediately looking at what could be cut and changed is rather disturbing to me. When it comes to understanding of the books I would certainly put them below many of the long time posters here, Elio and Linda and even Bryan Cogman. Now if that guy was in charge I'd be a lot happier.

Better understanding of the books, maybe, but not better at condensing and adapting the necessary material to make it relatable, popular, and faithful in the time frame of ten hours a season.

I strongly disagree with the notion that D&D just saw "swordfights and hot women" and "thought it would be cool." Even if you think their understanding of the material pales in comparison with some of the more die-hard fans on this board, that's a pretty ridiculous thing to say, even as a blatant exaggeration. It would be nigh impossible not to sacrifice a certain amount of depth or complexity when adapting something as huge as ASOIAF to any medium with budget and time constraints, and D&D have done an incredible job considering the difficulty. Also,

Oh come on, Martin most certainly didn't sign off on them just because they knew about R+L=J and wanted to do a TV show. You're giving Martin *and* D&D not enough credit. It's safe to say they talked a great deal about a whole bunch of topics and that Martin liked what he heard.

Anyway, not that it matters. Criticise away, it's your right. I just get riled up when I read such condescending bizarro stuff like "almost anyone could write better than these guys" or "they don't understand the source material". Yeah right. Dan and Dave have lived with these books for, what, 7+ years now. They wake up with them, think about them all day long and go to sleep trying to figure "one more thing". The notion that they aren't "true fans" and that they "don't really understand George's books" must be among the most condescending, self-righteous, and irrational things I've heard.

This. I can't sum it up any better.

ETA: I also think the simplification of characters is a minor issue. Saying they're nothing but "echoes" of the characters in Martin's work is kind of a dumb thing to claim when we're discussing an adaptation. The anger at Tyrion being shown in a more favorable light, or at Stannis being portrayed as someone more under Melisandre's influence, is a product of over-analysis on our part, rather than of D&D's mistakes. We develop biased opinions about characters, gradually confusing subjective interpretations with objective truth as we argue them here, and then when we see something that is supposed to be canon portray our favorite characters differently from how we imagined them, we freak. I agree that HBOTyrion has been shown as more of a hero than an anti-hero, but ultimately he's still the same character: when I picture Peter Dinklage reading Tyrion's ADWD lines, it still works. They have plenty of time over the course of the next few seasons to establish and expand on Tyrion's dark side (same goes for Daenerys).

[protar]

Oh come on, Martin most certainly didn't sign off on them just because they knew about R+L=J and wanted to do a TV show. You're giving Martin *and* D&D not enough credit. It's safe to say they talked a great deal about a whole bunch of topics and that Martin liked what he heard.

Anyway, not that it matters. Criticise away, it's your right. I just get riled up when I read such condescending bizarro stuff like "almost anyone could write better than these guys" or "they don't understand the source material". Yeah right. Dan and Dave have lived with these books for, what, 7+ years now. They wake up with them, think about them all day long and go to sleep trying to figure "one more thing". The notion that they aren't "true fans" and that they "don't really understand George's books" must be among the most condescending, self-righteous, and irrational things I've heard.

Well what if we'd gotten some money-grubbing corporate businessman who had skimmed the books once and cared not a whit for a faithful adaptation? Would you call such a man someone who understands and is a fan of the books just because he's been working on the show for 7 years? Obviously D+D are very far from that, but clearly the fact that they've dedicate a lot of time to the show does not necessarily mean they understand it. Every person in charge of a film or televisual adaptation dedicates a lot of time to it after all, and yet there are countless bad and/or unfaithful adaptations out there.

I disagree with the term "true fan" and try never to use it. If at any time I do you can count it as a slip up. Feel free to call me out. If D+D just read the books and though "Dragons! Cool!" then they're still fans (And I do think they have a better understanding of the series then that at least). I accept that. But they're still not fans in the same way forumgoers here are. They were not long time fans before beginning the adaptation process, their first read of the books was with adaptation in mind and unlike many posters here they likely haven't done in-depth analysis of the themes of the book (especially as they don't believe in themes). Most of their time spent thinking about the books will be about simply adapting the events, rather than looking below the surface.

Finally, I wasn't claiming that Martin had just given them the green light after guessing R+L=J. I was just saying that we really don't have much idea of what conversations the three of them had and what Martin thought he was getting himself into. Certainly given his comments about the "sassy peasant back-talks the Prince" cliche I feel comfortable saying he didn't know he was getting himself into stuff like Talisa's storyline. From interviews his views on fiction in general tend towards purism, so it seems odd that he'd have a less strict mindset about his own work. I fully believe that Martin thought he'd be getting 8 seasons of Season 1 levels of faithfulness. To be clear, I'm not accusing D+D of deliberately misleading him. I expect they thought they were going to deliver on that. But partly due to the difficulty of adapting Clash onwards, and partly I think due to the success causing them to get a tad carried away, it didn't happen.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Stannis is going to treat with the Iron Bank early in the season. Remember saying they have to raise an army at the end of season 3? The Battle at the Wall isn't until episode 9. Nobody said Stannis was going to the iron bank instead of the Wall, he's just going there first. Just relax, it's going to be okay.

This.

[tyrell19]

so many of you seem to be ripping the show the just for the sake of I it. I mean we haven't seen the season yet but so many of you already apparently know and hate what benioff and Weiss do. where as cogman and martin can't put a foot wrong ( I agree they can't haha but I do think theres a hypocrisy there). You sound like Cartman when he's booing Wendy testaburger haha (hope some of you get the reference :).

Not trying to offend anyone I just don't understand why some of you would watch something which offends you so much.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

She smiled at him before walking down the aisle, too. One really smart unsullied said, so she wants to marry him, right? I had to explain it was different in the books.

That's just bizarre. I do admire their work, I really do, I just can't get the whole "Sansa and Tyrion = Epic Couple" thing. It just seems like they keep on acting as "Hey, if things were different, these two could really work" when in fact, knowing Tyrion, It's safe to say it couldn't.

Edit: Yes, I do like the show. Liking the show doesn't mean I agree with every decision they make. Some things could have been done better, and some things were dealt just fine (I mean, imagine how awesome would it be if in that Olenna/Tywin scene, when Tywin threatened to Kingsguard Loras, Olenna had brought up Jaime?). Critics should be welcome as well as compliments. Same with GRRM. I don't agree even with some of the things he did (Maggy the Frog, anyone?), why should I have to give them a free pass?

[The Prince of Newcastle]

People seem to honestly believe that the show runners owe them an explanation for any scene changes which frankly I think is absolutely laughable.

The show runners owe you nothing. They don’t have to explain anything. They could replace the Mountain with Robocop if they wanted and not only would that make GOT a billion times better than it already is, they wouldn’t have to explain a thing to you.

They owe you nothing.

Dont like the adaptation? Dont watch it. Its literally that simple.

You want to see the books used as the screen play? Go and buy the rights to the book and make it yourself. Go and make ASOIAF: The Movie or whatever. D&D and making GOT: The TV Show.

I’ve actually heard people being angry that Robert wasn’t 6’6 tall. That Danny isn’t actually 12 years old when Drogo is fucking her...

D&D owe you nothing, this is there adaptation of the novels, and thats that. They in no uncertain terms have to communicate with fans of the source material and explain why they are changing things.

And for the record, I have heard them explain why Cat doesn’t want Ned to go to KL in season 1 which is not what happens in the book. They actually explained themselves and people still whinge about it. They had good reasons as well.

FWIW, I don’t think the show is perfect at all. And I do think that some of the changes are unnecasary based on what i know, which is very little.

Its easy for me to say ‘Why change Jeyne in to Talisa? Just use Jeyne’ but I know nothing of their reasoning behind that change. D&D have a damnsight more experience making TV shows than anyone on this forum. Perhaps we should stop judging something we know nothing at all about?

Go and buy the rights and make ASOIAF: The Movie if you want. Literally use the book and film it scene by scene with an internal monologue voice over for every single person. Make it 500 hours long and film Sansa actually building a snow castle for 4 hours. Have your cast have cosmetic surgery to make them resemble the book characters. Some stupid cunt will still call you out on the bread not being stale enough to be an actual trencher.

[Faceless Man Friday]

People seem to honestly believe that the show runners owe them an explanation for any scene changes which frankly I think is absolutely laughable.

The show runners owe you nothing. They don’t have to explain anything. They could replace the Mountain with Robocop if they wanted and not only would that make GOT a billion times better than it already is, they wouldn’t have to explain a thing to you.

They owe you nothing.

While I do not think replacing the Mountain with Robocop would make the show better, I agree with the sentiment. :lol:

The Books are the Books and the Show is the Show. I enjoy them both immensely. I do have a hard time understanding how some people do get so upset over changes from the Books. For me that is part of the fun. Picking out what is different and how it may change what will happen next, rather than lamenting how the story has been ruined. Such possibilities. I find it especially intriguing that this problem exits with fans of this genre. After all it is fantasy. For those of us who love the world created by the Books so much we do not want to see any changes in that world just think of the Show as an alternate reality. We still have our world the Books created and the world of the show exits in an alternate universe. I hope this helps some of us get through this with our fantasies intact.

[Arkash]

But.... but... Robocop as the Mountain...... I WANT THAT NOW !!!!!

[King Zee]

Query . Is anyone upset that Vargo got replace by Locke ? Chase that's one adaptation that I think is superior to the book.

[King Zee]

She smiled at him before walking down the aisle, too. One really smart unsullied said, so she wants to marry him, right? I had to explain it was different in the books.

if your unsullied said that he/she isnt so smart.