R+L=J v 75

[stateofdissipation]

You have the audacity to complain about other people's thought processes but in the above have blatant contradictions in basic logic. You really are a piece of work, and that is in no way a compliment. You say the legal process of determining heirs (and who as a result has political power) considers only children born to parents that are married to each other, but somehow marriage is not political. :rolleyes: Whatever, there is no reasoning with people who have no intereast in being reasoned with and just want to metaphorically hear themselves pontificate as if they have actual knowledge while demonstrating that knowledge is the one of the things they clearly lack.

The legal process of determining heirs in the Seven Kingdoms (North of the wall has their own processes) considers only children born to parents that are married to eachother as eligible. As an exception a Royal Decree can legitimize a bastard and make him or her eligible.

Note there is no political in what i typed. The contradiction is in the reply and not the original post.

The other half of the post was

In the text no marriages (in the Seven Kingdoms) were preformed by a King, a Lord or an officer of the law.

All marriages in the text (in the Seven Kingdoms) were performed involving the exchange of vows in the presence of particular sacred witnesses.

The MtnLion claimed themarriages were legal because they made children legitimate,

The original reply was Marriage in the Seven Kingdoms are religious matters and not legal matters.

The base post was marrying multiple wives was never made illegal.

[Ser Creighton]

You know I have this quote that keeps popping into my head, and I think I will share it. It's not about anything or anyone in particular, but it's funny and I thought I would share it. Perhaps it's because it's about perspective.

"If you run into an a**hole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into a**holes all day, you're the a**hole."

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Why would Rhaegar want a legitimized bastard? That could lead to a war, whereas a second marriage = no way to usurp Aegon

[Stubby]

[MOD]

The tone of the discussion in this thread is getting very close to being objectionable.

If you can't make your point without resorting to insults you probably can't make your point.

And if you think someone is a troll, use the report function and we will consider it.

[/MOD]

[Sasha Steelsong]

Why would Rhaegar want a legitimized bastard? That could lead to a war, whereas a second marriage = no way to usurp Aegon

This is where I come down too. GRRM has been very vague on where such bastards would fall in the line of succession, and I think intentionally so. With Ramsey, Roose seems to think he'll kill any heir that Walda gives birth to, but I don't know if that is because they would come before him (i.e. trueborn kids come before legit bastards) or because he's a complete psycho and just doesn't want any alternatives to him. It could well be both but it certainly doesn't clarify the issue, and the Dance of Dragons didn't really either since it eventually came down to who was left standing (time for a reread of the novelas). Given the Targaryen history and the problems legitimized bastards created however, particularly since Rhaegar was bookish before he started to learn arms, I can't see how he would want to walk down that road again (he definitely would have known the history).

[stateofdissipation]

Ramsay Bolton stood beneath them, clad in high boots of soft grey leather and a black velvet doublet slashed with pink silk and glittering with garnet teardrops. A smile danced across his face. “Who comes?” His lips were moist, his neck red above his collar. “Who comes before the god?”

Theon answered. “Arya of House Stark comes here to be wed. A woman grown and flowered, trueborn and noble, she comes to beg the blessings of the gods. Who comes to claim her?”

“Me,” said Ramsay. “Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort. I claim her. Who gives her?”

“Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father’s ward.” He turned to the bride. “Lady Arya, will you take this man?” ADwD p. 488

Then later:

Quick as that, it was done. Weddings went more quickly in the north. It came of not having priests, Theon supposed, but whatever the reason it seemed to him a mercy. ADwD p. 488

There is no officiant. This Northern wedding had Theon give away fArya. Normally, it would be something like a father or sibling giving away the bride to someone they agreed to give her to, the groom.

Also, separating "magical," "superstitious," "religious," "traditional," and "legal" concepts in Westeros is, frankly, impossible.

Separating legal from the rest seems possible.

The legal system system goes from the king to his lords to the lord's vassals. The king is the highest legal authority. Lords are only answerable to the king and have duty to keep the peace, hear petitions, and mete out justice and punishments, A lord's vassals have roughly the same responsibility to their lord that theiir Lords have to the king. If a matter requires the king`'s words or stems from the king's words it is a legal matter. If a matter stems from a Lord's duty to the king and requires his words or stems from his words it is a legal matter. The same applies from lord to vassal. . The scope of legal matters in the system is keep the peace, hear petitions, and mete out justice and punishments.

[stateofdissipation]

Why would Rhaegar want a legitimized bastard? That could lead to a war, whereas a second marriage = no way to usurp Aegon

Just answering the question.

If polygamy was denied and/or setting Elia aside/annulment was not possible in the faith, legitimization would be his only recourse. The pragmatic solution

Legitimizing a bastard is the least likely to pit Dorne against the North. (the North's claim would be undeniably weaker) Keeping the realm together. solution

Legitimizing a bastard is the least likely to antagonize Dorne with the North approaching rebellion R needed allies. The self preservation solution

Polygamy could also lead to war for the exact reasons legitimization could. competition between half siblings one with the North behind him and the other with Dorne.

Setting aside or annulment could lead to war due to the insult to Dorne and possibly ccmpeting claims to the throne.

[Ser Leftwich]

Separating legal from the rest seems possible.

The legal system system goes from the king to his lords to the lord's vassals. The king is the highest legal authority. Lords are only answerable to the king and have duty to keep the peace, hear petitions, and mete out justice and punishments, A lord's vassals have roughly the same responsibility to their lord that theiir Lords have to the king. If a matter requires the king`'s words or stems from the king's words it is a legal matter. If a matter stems from a Lord's duty to the king and requires his words or stems from his words it is a legal matter. The same applies from lord to vassal. . The scope of legal matters in the system is keep the peace, hear petitions, and mete out justice and punishments.

What is described above is the hierarchy of legal enforcement, not the laws of Westeros. Legal also has to do with where the laws came from to begin with, for example:

"... The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.”

- ASoS p. 102, Mance to Jon.

"Legal" in Westeros is not really codified as far as we readers know. It is more than just what is written in The Seven Pointed Star. And, on the other side, it is more than just the whim or word of the lord. The law rather fluid, hence the earlier relating of "magical," "superstitious," "religious," "traditional," and "legal" concepts.

[Chebyshov]

There is no officiant. This Northern wedding had Theon give away fArya. Normally, it would be something like a father or sibling giving away the bride to someone they agreed to give her to, the groom.

Super super reach here but if L got Benjen to help with this that could explain why he took the black (always one of the biggest mysteries to me).

[Ser Leftwich]

Super super reach here but if L got Benjen to help with this that could explain why he took the black (always one of the biggest mysteries to me).

I amended my line to be "father, uncle, or male sibling," but the concept/possibility about Benjen still holds.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I also think Benjen might have known some things.

[stateofdissipation]

What is described above is the hierarchy of legal enforcement, not the laws of Westeros. Legal also has to do with where the laws came from to begin with, for example:

"... The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.”

- ASoS p. 102, Mance to Jon.

"Legal" in Westeros is not really codified as far as we readers know. It is more than just what is written in The Seven Pointed Star. And, on the other side, it is more than just the whim or word of the lord. The law rather fluid, hence the earlier relating of "magical," "superstitious," "religious," "traditional," and "legal" concepts.

You have me there good sir I described legal enforcement and added in a dash of the king being the law giver. I would detract the latter to become onesided. Leaving only the law enforcement and legal officials. The vassals enforce law for the Lord (the official) the Lords enforce laws for the king (the highest official)

I agree it is quite fluid.

Life got very complicated with Stannis's red god monotheism and the faith militant. Before that the roles were much more clear.

It does not appeat that Mel gets to burn people without Stannis giving the go ahead. It also does not appeat that Stannis performs ceremonies without the priests.

The faith militant is a bit trickier. They seem too be intent on dispensing justice despite the will of the queen. I am not certain if Cersei's trial is legal or religious. I think she was punished by the faith for her sins but now must face legal justice for her crimes.

You could say that, I would absolutely not say that. Please do not use "we."---Ser Leftwich

I think those that are reasonable and have an interest in understanding could say if the King can solve it it is legal. If you need a priest, septon, or heart tree, then it is religious.

The requested ammendment (omision of "we") has been edited,

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The discussion is about from the perspective of the remaining Targaryen KG and other loyalists. The throne has been stolen, but thats temporary (even if 20 years or more temporary). Their true heir is someone in particular, whether that person tales the throne by force or not.

Just as Renly could never have been a legitimate claimant ahead of Stannis. He wanted to take it by force, and may have been able to make it stick, but that still wouldn't have made him a legitimate claimant ahead of Stannis, just a successful usurper.

That is my point. Aegon I had no right to rule Westeros. He took it by force. So all the kings of Westeros lost their right to rule. Then Aerys was removed by force, so the Targs lost the right to rule. Easy peasy. So, I do not believe Jon being a legitimate son of Rhaegar gives purpose to, or the right to be, the king or ruler of Westeros.

Either bastard or legitimate, Jon's story is not about being the heir to the iron throne. He has a lot more going for him. The (85% chance of, in my mind) Targ blood has good drama potential for Jon himself, and maybe something else I will not pull into this thread.

I do not fault or condemn anyone for searching the texts for clues or the theories that come from the analysis. I do the same. That is why a lot of us are on the forums. Yet I do not believe Jon is a legitimate son of Rhaegar. More importantly, I do not belielieve he has the right or the reason to sit the iron throne.

[Ser Leftwich]

I think we could say if the King can solve it it is legal. If you need a priest, septon, or heart tree, then it is religious.

You could say that, I would absolutely not say that. Please do not use "we."

ETA: It is a question of the power to act, deliniation of "legal" and "religious" are, in my opinion, pointless.

[corbon]

I think we could say if the King can solve it it is legal. If you need a priest, septon, or heart tree, then it is religious.

I disagree.

While marriages are performed by a septon (some at least), they also have legal status and functions, not just religious.

That is my point. Aegon I had no right to rule Westeros. He took it by force. So all the kings of Westeros lost their right to rule. Then Aerys was removed by force, so the Targs lost the right to rule.

And mine is that you have missed, and continue to miss, the point. The terms of the discussion are how the KG sees, it, not how we see it. In their terms the Targaryens have not yet lost the right to rule, just the ability to assert that right. They can yet regain the power and re-assert that right, even if it takes some time.

You may not agree, but its not your perspective that the discussion centres around, its that of the 3KG at the ToJ.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I disagree.

While marriages are performed by a septon (some at least), they also have legal status and functions, not just religious.

And mine is that you have missed, and continue to miss, the point. The terms of the discussion are how the KG sees, it, not how we see it. In their terms the Targaryens have not yet lost the right to rule, just the ability to assert that right. They can yet regain the power and re-assert that right, even if it takes some time.

You may not agree, but its not your perspective that the discussion centres around, its that of the 3KG at the ToJ.

This discussion goes beyond the KG.

I see mostly marriage rules and polygamy being discussed, along with the right to rule. The Targs did lose the right to rule when they lost the throne. I have never read any text in which 3KGs state the Targs still have the right or ability to rule.

[Cubarey]

"Legal" in Westeros is not really codified as far as we readers know. It is more than just what is written in The Seven Pointed Star. And, on the other side, it is more than just the whim or word of the lord. The law rather fluid, hence the earlier relating of "magical," "superstitious," "religious," "traditional," and "legal" concepts."

"While marriages are performed by a septon (some at least), they also have legal status and functions, not just religious."

People should see the legal system in Westeros in the same light as the legal sysytem in the Middle Ages. The "Law" was not simply a matter of written edicts handed down from the King. The majority of "laws" were "common laws" that is traditions and practices that had taken on the force of "law" through their acceptance over a long period of time. Moreover, both the King (and nobles) and the church both had a say in administering the "laws" In this respect the practice of polygamy was unlawful in Westeros. The only case of "lawful" polygamy we know of were the Targ's prior to The Concilliator making peace with the Faith.

Were their specific wriiten laws against the practice; likely not. It does not matter it was "Common Law" and presumably a belief of the Faith. It should be noted that in the reign of Henry VIII of England Henry attempted to get an annulment from his first wife but the Pope denied the request (not hard to fathom as Catherine was a Spanish Princess and the Spanish were much more wealthy and powerful then the English). The refusal led to the formation of the Church of England under the direct control of the King. Would Rhaeagar of had to do the same to get his marraiage with L recognized? We do not know but it would have been a much more difficult thing then Rhaegar simply declaring it so.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 GoT Chapter 18 Catelyn

2. So the fact that Robert died and Joff died and Varys let Tyrion out have nothing to do with why he is where he is. It cold only be things Varys learned spying on Aerys. Though nothing shows he actually did. Got it.

3: Perhaps I should.

4. It actually did address what you were talking about, Sorry for chopping your sentences on that note. However the numbers match up so putting the comment with,,, nevermind, You had implied that there would be consequences to inheritence regarding annulment.

5. 6.7. It appears to mean that the KG knew Aerys had troubles with Rhaella and got aroused by burning people. You must take it as Jamie knew every piece of paper Aerys signed and every word that left his mouth from Aegon's birth to the Trident.. If there had been a decree Jamie would have known about it. Hard to claim the latter without the former. as far as a shadow goes; How about in the dark or in the crapper. Does the shadow follow him there too... How about on cloudy days?

8.9. I Aerys decree any children born of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark to be legitimate... signed Aerys... that is not a claim of what happened... just proof that you made up the impossibility.

10. 11. I apologize. GRRM is fine. I dont care for him to rewrite the last books... i would not mind if he spent it on the next one, I would happily reread the books to spare him the time of having to explain them to me.

12. Rhaegar died with a woman's name on his lips. Lyanna has far fewer leters that a woman's name. You can't even claim it was a typo. It made it through the editors and on to publishing. I really wish I had never met my exwife. However me saying it does not stop the alimony checks from going out.

13. 14. Great. I am glad for you. thanks for the update. perhaps we will see what theory gets proven and what theory gets demolished.

15. ok. But elia became hostage to do the very thing her marriage was supposed to be doing.

16. Dorne had trouble proving who killed Elia. Investigating a dead son in law would seem a distant second, Because everybody he had impacted was also dead.

17. I Dont buy hypotheticals either. mine or yours.

18. 19, The problem is in making up hypothetical rules when you already have the conclusion in your head. One will necessarily support the other.

20. I kind of doubted you would read it, Makes no difference. Just wondered if you wanted to know the Cat 18 Chapter from GoT... Meager the Cruel swore only the blood of the dragon would know the castles secrets... I kind of read this response first and then assumed you would not bother to read a passage.

21,22. MTNLN was wrong. In Westeros, marriage is a religious practice. Kings lords and officers of the law do nor perform marriages. Religious figures do. Read the reply to the post. He cheated / was full of crap on his definition. for legitiate.

1. You mean this:

Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords had built, he vowed.

?

If we're not allowed to assume that polygamy is still allowed, since the last known polygamous marriage was 250 years ago, we´re also not allowed to assume that a man who has died 250 years ago did as he wanted to.

No where is it specifically stated that Aerys knew of the existence of the secret passages, and where they were.

2. I originally said this:

Varys has little birds everywhere in the Red Keep. He would have known if Aerys had decreed baby Jon legit. This same Varys is now presenting Rhaegar’s son Aegon.

You told me that my third sentence (This same Varys is now presenting Rhaegar's son Aegon) could only be true if the two sentences before were true.

I said that this wasn't true, since we've actually seen Varys presenting Aegon (be he true or false).

Somehow (I don't know how) you respond with this:

So the fact that Robert died and Joff died and Varys let Tyrion out have nothing to do with why he is where he is. It cold only be things Varys learned spying on Aerys. Though nothing shows he actually did

Now, I don't know where the mentioning of Robert and Joffrey came from, nor Tyrions escape. Are you suggesting that Aerys used the secret passages frequently, and that Varys was able to secretly follow him? Even though there are doors that constantly need to be locked and unlocked, a fire is needed to follow the path, unless you actually know where you're going, and that Aerys was capable of disappearing in these passages without it being noticed by anyone at court (like his KG) for periods of time...

No. This is where I stop...

Seriously, I stopped reading.

[Ygrain]

This discussion goes beyond the KG.

I see mostly marriage rules and polygamy being discussed, along with the right to rule. The Targs did lose the right to rule when they lost the throne. I have never read any text in which 3KGs state the Targs still have the right or ability to rule.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been"

If they call someone "usurper", they do not acknowledge his right to rule.

People should see the legal system in Westeros in the same light as the legal sysytem in the Middle Ages. The "Law" was not simply a matter of written edicts handed down from the King. The majority of "laws" were "common laws" that is traditions and practices that had taken on the force of "law" through their acceptance over a long period of time. Moreover, both the King (and nobles) and the church both had a say in administering the "laws" In this respect the practice of polygamy was unlawful in Westeros. The only case of "lawful" polygamy we know of were the Targ's prior to The Concilliator making peace with the Faith.

Were their specific wriiten laws against the practice; likely not. It does not matter it was "Common Law" and presumably a belief of the Faith. It should be noted that in the reign of Henry VIII of England Henry attempted to get an annulment from his first wife but the Pope denied the request (not hard to fathom as Catherine was a Spanish Princess and the Spanish were much more wealthy and powerful then the English). The refusal led to the formation of the Church of England under the direct control of the King. Would Rhaeagar of had to do the same to get his marraiage with L recognized? We do not know but it would have been a much more difficult thing then Rhaegar simply declaring it so.

That is a misleading statement. In no way does GRRM tie polygamy to any arrangements with the Faith.

[corbon]

This discussion goes beyond the KG.

I see mostly marriage rules and polygamy being discussed, along with the right to rule. The Targs did lose the right to rule when they lost the throne. I have never read any text in which 3KGs state the Targs still have the right or ability to rule.

:bang: Still completely missing the point

The whole framework this discussion is centred on is the potential marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna. And how the Kingsguard's actions and statements at ToJ provide strong evidence that such a marriage existed. So we are talking about what the KG believes the situation to be, not what you believe it to be.

The KG do not agree with you that the Targs have lost the right to rule at that stage. Robert is the Usurper, indicating his right is not yet accepted, therefore the Targaryen right is still paramount in their minds.