The source of all Sansa-hate

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Well, we have both Sansa and Ned POVs and they never reflect on Ned asking Sansa to lie

considering Sansa refuses to reflect pretty much at all, due to it all being far too painful I don't think her lack of reflecting on it proves anything and I always assumed the line about no harm in a lie if it is kindly meant was about him having told her that her testimony wouldn't change anything and its was kinder to lie ie say she can't recall. ie you did what was best under the circumstances. Unless GRRM says otherwise as far as I am concerned Ned told her best to keep quite. He was the only person with the power to tell the King no regarding the betrothal, yet he didn't choose to break it and he knew what went on.

[JesterX]

LOL. It's normal to assume that your father telling you he's sending you away to Winterfell for your own safety and don't tell anyone+you going to the queen to tell her your father is sending you away to Winterfell=hours later everyone in the Stark household is dead and your father imprisoned...doesn't connect?

No, it isn't normal. It would be normal to see that your actions at the very least may have/probably/could have precipitated the blood bath that occured.

I'm not asking for ad naseum. She never once thinks about it.

Not to mention that it was probably her telling the Queen is what led to Cersei having her people intercept Ned's rider and getting he letter he sent to Stannis.

[Vivianne]

Eddard could have taken a risk and sent Lady home but he didn't want to bother.

oh how I wish he had!! :stillsick:

[Dreams and Prophecies]

:dunno: I love Sansa.

An unpopular opinion by the looks of it on this thread.

Though i agree with you :)

[Mark Antony]

:dunno: I love Sansa.

:cheers:

[juanml82]

considering Sansa refuses to reflect pretty much at all, due to it all being far too painful I don't think her lack of reflecting on it proves anything and I always assumed the line about no harm in a lie if it is kindly meant was about him having told her that her testimony wouldn't change anything and its was kinder to lie ie say she can't recall. ie you did what was best under the circumstances. Unless GRRM says otherwise as far as I am concerned Ned told her best to keep quite. He was the only person with the power to tell the King no regarding the betrothal, yet he didn't choose to break it and he knew what went on.

We're filling the blanks here. Now, during the "trial", after Joffrey finishes his lies, Ned tells this

“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

This is not consistent with the idea that Ned told her to lie. If Sansa said she didn't remember on Ned's command, wouldn't it make more sense for Ned from keeping her from testifying at all, thus not exposing her?

I will agree that there is a (large) degree of irresponsibility in Ned's actions. He was told by Sansa, in private, that the Crown Prince tried to kill his daughter and he does nothing? Of course, otherwise we wouldn't have a story, but still...

[David Selig]

LOL. It's normal to assume that your father telling you he's sending you away to Winterfell for your own safety and don't tell anyone+you going to the queen to tell her your father is sending you away to Winterfell=hours later everyone in the Stark household is dead and your father imprisoned...doesn't connect?

No, it isn't normal. It would be normal to see that your actions at the very least may have/probably/could have precipitated the blood bath that occured.

Cersei acted because Robert died, not because Sansa told her the tiny amount of info she knew.

Sansa thinking "I told the queen that Dad arranged to send us home before the King was even injured, thus the violent coup she lead after the King died is my fault" would be completely illogical.

Also why would she blame herself for Ned admitting his treason because Varys told him they'd kill Sansa otherwise? She had no idea about that. I am not even sure Varys didn't make this up.

[DrunkSister]

Rickon is 3-5. Bran is a God and is fighting a war at a very high level. Arya hit Sansa (oh the horror!) and killed an enemy combatant in a war. This is just dishonest argumentation. Why even bother?

Ah, right, I get it. All children except Sansa are angels, and if they are not, then they are too young to be judged.

You are wrong, Bran is doing it for fun. Because he is bored. He is not yet fighting a war. That is Bloodraven. That he is a god does not in any way make immorality okay. He should be doubly moral because he judges mortals for their morality. But he doesn't know how, he is a kid. Like Sansa.

ETA: Sorry, I forgot the two times he warged Hodor to save their lives, first to shut him up, second to fight. But the rest was because he wanted to explore the caves, and that is wrong! If he were older I'd call him evil!

Like, you are the one to say something about dishonesty. :rolleyes:

Arya HAS killed repeatedly. I don't know if you've noticed this, but Arya is a soldier fighting in a war. She's not a hostage princess living in a castle. I don't even know what 'ruined a girl's toy' is supposed to mean, in the context of this discussion. Are you kidding? You go from accusations of murder to she ruined a toy? What planet are you... never mind. Jeyne called people names? Great. Did any of them betray their families for sociopaths and cause the deaths of their entire households? No? Still just Sansa? Yea I thought so.

Some of the people on here are really absurd. If this is how this forum is (people just mindlessly and obviously dishonestly defending their pet characters, and facts and common sense be damned) I don't know if this is really a place worth posting long-term.

Arya has never been a soldier. She is a civilian trying to survive. Just like Sansa.

Why wouldn't I arrange mean things Arya did after the murders? Is there a law? Are you now going to disregard that the little girl run away crying because Arya has done worse? Funny how Sansa doesn't get away with standing by while people call Arya names because she went to Cersei.

Double standard.

Thank you also for insinuating that I am insane. So young on this forums, already making a name for yourself.

Here is a reminder of what you said:

There are many children in the story, many of whom are younger than Sansa was in GoT. Yet none of them (except Joffrey, the Walders, etc) act horribly. Except Sansa.

Now that you can no longer claim that other children are good, you are claiming that none of this matters! Sansa alone has 'betrayed' her family to a sociopath so she is clearly beyond the pale!

You know who else did it? Eddard Stark. To the same person.

And I have put betrayal in the quotes because Sansa did not know that she was betraying anybody. She did not know that there was a conflict. She did not know that people will be killed.

But she gets judged anyway.

This is not fair. This is double standard. When Eddard Stark kills Lady on the injust order of the queen even though he could have sent the direwolf home with no consequence, we do not judge him. Ooops, he just injustly executed the GOD'S GIFT to house Stark that was to be instrumental in War for Dawn.

But he didn't know.

Sansa didn't know what would happen either. But she is the traitor, while he is just honest and trusting. Blagh!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't see it that way. The fact he tells us he's heard Sansa's version and he knows the truth, him calling her forward to speak indicates to me that he has coached her on what to say. He's trying to smooth the relationship between his daughter and her future husband and goodmother.

Look Sansa does not hold his actions against him, everything is fine. Please do not hold this unpleasant incident against her. She's going to be a good wife and will be on his side.

I think that when she went to her father and told him that she was scared and upset and drunk and that he will have had to calm her down and explain that she can't stand against her future husband.

But I do not require you to agree.

[RandomSmallfolk]

Apparently Sandor likes her :)

[Faydra]

Disliking or liking her storyline is a matter of tastes, but hating her is pretty much out of place. Her qualities overshadow her faults. Sansa's mistreatment of her little sister was one of her worst actions. While telling Cersei about Ned's plans wasn't much better, her "betrayal" had little to no impact on the Stark-Lannister war. This hardly makes her comparable to a villain. She's capable of empathy and she has shown kindness many times (she saved Dontos, kept Sandor's secret, calmed the frightened people during the Battle of the Blackwater).

I don't expect everyone to agree on this point, but I don't find her storyline boring, nor do I believe that she is common. Quite the opposite, she's and outstanding character. Being so tempered is quite an achievement. Given what I know now, I'd do the same in her place. At that age however, I would, of surety, find a way to get myself into trouble.

[DrunkSister]

Wait . . . Cersei stated DIRECTLY that it was Sansa's reporting that to her was the reason they were able to come out on top. She said it almost all came to ruin if not for that.

Cersei lied. She does that.

[JesterX]

Cersei lied. She does that.

She had no reason to lie there.

[Dicer]

You know who else did it? Eddard Stark. To the same person.

And I have put betrayal in the quotes because Sansa did not know that she was betraying anybody. She did not know that there was a conflict. She did not know that people will be killed. But she gets judged anyway.

Does intent matter? Ned talked to Cersei because he did not want her children to suffer from Robert's wrath. Sansa talked to Cersei because she wanted to marry Joffrey and be Queen. One was done for a noble reason, the other was done for selfish reasons.

If Sansa did not know that she was betraying anyone why did she feel 'wicked' when she sneaked off to spill the beans to Cersei?

Sansa thinking "I told the queen that Dad arranged to send us home before the King was even injured, thus the violent coup she lead after the King died is my fault" would be completely illogical.

How about Sansa thinking "Dammit, If I had not told the Queen our getaway plans, me, Arya and Jeyne Poole could have got away on that ship my father arranged for us. Instead I am now stuck in this room with guards outside. And I even told Cersei where Arya would be this morning. And poor Jeyne could have left with us" ? Would that be logical?

Or how about Sansa thinking "I wonder what Littlefinger did to my good friend Jeyne Poole whose father was most probably killed by the man who I am having sexual fantasies about"

Or Sansa thinking " Damn. I should not have trusted the person who got my wolf killed"

Cersei lied. She does that.

From GRRM's SSM

The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her. She was not privy to all of Ned's plans regarding Stannis, the gold cloaks, etc... but she knew more than just that her father planned to spirit her and Arya away from King's Landing. She knew when they were to leave, on what ship, how many men would be in their escort, who would have the command, where Arya was that morning, etc... all of which was useful to Cersei in planning and timing her move.

[Sweetgirl205]

Sansa is the most changed character in the entire series. Unlike Arya, Sansa never had any help dealing with her problems. Any mistakes she has made, she has paid in full for. If the Hound hadn't stopped her, Sansa would have shoved Joeffry off the Red Keep. She is very brave. Left alone, friendless, and with no family, she is slowly learning the game while staying true to who she is.

Arya, on the other hand,always had help. Things were explained to her. She is turning heartless. I'm glad she didn't kill The Hound, but her reasons are hateful. She is the one who needs to be saved, not Sansa.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

If Sansa did not know that she was betraying anyone why did she feel 'wicked' when she sneaked off to spill the beans to Cersei?

Because Sansa was very aware she was being disobedient. She said that she felt that morning; "As willful and wicked as Arya." Besides it wasn't betrayal. She didn't know that Cersei was the enemy. Ned never said to her that the Lannisters were the enemy.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

They hate her because:

- They think she dislikes her family

- She told Cersei Eddard would send them away

- She lied to Joffrey, what caused Lady's death

- She is a romantic character in a cruel world

(She matured after her father's death)

[Dicer]

She didn't know that Cersei was the enemy. Ned never said to her that the Lannisters were the enemy.

Cersei demanded Lady's death from Robert. Right in front of Sansa. Sansa knows that Jaime Lannister killed Jory and two other Stark men. Ned warns her that the situation is very dangerous for them in KL. But I am guessing Sansa's special brain continued to hide the unpleasant truths from her.

[JesterX]

Cersei demanded Lady's death from Robert. Right in front of Sansa. Sansa knows that Jaime Lannister killed Jory and two other Stark men. Ned warns her that the situation is very dangerous for them in KL. But I am guessing Sansa's special brain continued to hide the unpleasant truths from her.

I don't think so. Sansa going to Cersei had nothing to do with her trusting Cersei. It had EVERYTHING to do with her not wanting to go back to Winterfell. And however she felt about Cersei, Sansa knew the effect of going to her would probably stop her from going back to Winterfell.

[Darksnider05]

I don't think so. Sansa going to Cersei had nothing to do with her trusting Cersei. It had EVERYTHING to do with her not wanting to go back to Winterfell. And however she felt about Cersei, Sansa knew the effect of going to her would probably stop her from going back to Winterfell.

Well she succeeded beyond all of her wildest dreams in that endeavor.