The source of all Sansa-hate

[butterbumps!]

Again, what readings are skewed or not is your opinion. It's not fact. If someone claims, that Sansa fans are skewing their opinions address them.

First: why are you taking issue with my commenting on an observation in this thread when you did not speak out against generalizations made by posters whose negative views you happen to agree with?

Secondly, for an example, this, from page 1:

One other source?

Her fanbase.

Some of you guys or girls no what I mean.

Harry Dresden has been among the most vocal posters in this thread, none of whose posts appear genuine or non-inflammatory subsequently to that post. Need I truly address each one of those point by point to show how they are poor representations of the text?

Who is this 'they' you are addressing here? You don't give specifics, but talk about how those 'who profess to hate her', try to mask their hatred with their 'objective' critique using manipulated analysis. This is the generalization I am talking about. Again, why don't you address specific posters who have mentioned their reasons, instead of talking about how 'those who hate her' manipulate the text to support their hatred?

By claiming that the critique of Sansa haters is not objective, you are implying that somehow you have a better understanding of the text. Is that not right? How do you know that their critique is not objective. There's only one person who can make that judgement. And I don't think GRRM is going to be reading this thread any time soon.

So if I address you about your specific comment, I should also address other posters about their comments about Sansa fans? I don't understand what you are saying here.

I gave an example of the specific condition I was initially calling out above (the citation of Sansa fans as a reason for hating Sansa).

I didn't accuse all Sansa critics of being non-objective or negative response as invalid. I gave an example of a specific criticism that's often leveled against her ("passivity") to explain why this popular refrain is not valid. I even went a bit further to say that there are indeed reasons for not sympathizing with her, but that I think the ones frequently cited (such as passivity) are not getting at the truth of the issues most posters take with her. Is this part of what you're taking issue with me about?

But, if you insist on unpacking my subsequent points about manipulated "analysis", I suppose your posts can serve as a case study, one of which I did address:

The issue is not that Sansa is girly and likes boys and pretty things. The issue is her problematic behavior in many cases:

1. Joffrey mauls an innocent boy's face with his sword. Cruel and Sadistic. Sansa continues to love him. Do you really see a typical 11 yr girl continue to love such a boy?

2. Joffrey violently attacks Arya with his sword and would have killed or severely injured her. Do you see a 11 yr girl being friends with someone who tried to kill their sibling?

3. Her sister is dragged before the king on charges of attacking the crown prince without provocation. Her life could be in danger. What does Sansa do? Not stand up for her sibling?

Out of interest, do you hold Ned to the same standard of "problematic behavior" that you agree with when Sansa does this? For example:

1. Joffrey mauls an innocent boy's face with his sword. Cruel and Sadistic. Ned doesn't send his daughters, one of whom was nearly killed in the search, back to Winterfell away from the danger. Most problematically, he doesn't end Sansa's betrothal to this "Cruel and sadistic" boy.

2. Joffrey violently attacks Arya with his sword and would have killed or severely injured her. Do you see a father continuing to permit a betrothal between a daughter the boy who "would have killed" her sibling?

3. Her sister is dragged before the king on charges of attacking the crown prince without provocation. Her life could be in danger. What does Ned do? Not stand up for his daughter, despite having been told the truth by Sansa the day it happened. Oh, and let's not forget he kills the innocent direwolf himself.

The faultiness that I'm seeing in your interpretation and rationale for disliking her is that unless these are reasons you cite for disliking Ned as well, then I don't believe they stand as justification for disliking Sansa-- that there's something more that hasn't been articulated. That is, I don't think you're isolating the true source of what's objectionable about her behavior to you. For a non-Sansa example, I think it's also misplaced when fans of a character known for burning people cite "crucifixions" as a reason for hating the other character, or anyone who likes anyone other than Brienne citing an immoral action as the reason for disliking another character based on the mere fact that the activity was immoral.

I've already mentioned the use of "maul" to describe Joff's actions as another example. If this is a simple language miscommunication, then "maul" connotes a severe and vicious assault. Cutting the skin isn't described as "mauling;" being gored by a bear would be.

as an aside, will you be addressing this generalization too?

I think you hit the nail on the head with the statement "it was wrong, but".....

But, it seems Sansa fans use this logic more than the haters.

Most haters hate Sansa for selling out her sister. The fans claim "it was wrong, but"...

Most haters hate Sansa for betraying her father. The fans claim "it was wrong, but"....

I don't particularly enjoy Sansa because she is so unlike the other Stark children. Her siblings are head-strong, quick to action, and can think for themselves. Her siblings may not make the best decision, but her siblings don't sit around daydreaming about lemoncakes and Florian. She is manipulated by everyone around her. She was manipulated into selling our her sister and betraying her father. She didn't get out of KL by herself. LF schemed to get her out and is manipulating her for his own reasons. She was still being manipulated by LF as she came down from the Eyrie.

[MegaAIP]

Didn't know there was a contigent that hated sansa ??

[David Selig]

I was about to start a Sansa thread, myself but since this one is up . . .

Did Sansa ever realize that it was her going to Cersei to report that Ned was sending them back to Winterfell, is essentially the reason her father lost her head? I'm trying to recall from the chapters.

Since it is not true at all, there's no reason to come to such realization.

[Mladen]

I was about to start a Sansa thread, myself but since this one is up . . .

Did Sansa ever realize that it was her going to Cersei to report that Ned was sending them back to Winterfell, is essentially the reason her father lost her head? I'm trying to recall from the chapters.

Problem is that that is basically not true. You can blame Sansa's for possible involvement in Ned's arrest, but Ned's death is on solely on Joffrey and the one who most likely manipulated him (Littlefinger)

[JesterX]

I've always found it odd that the author never has her really reflect on her actions in this regard, she never again thinks about her actions that day, I've never been sure what he's trying to tell us, or if he's trying to tell us anything...did she really never put 2 & 2 together, is this one more thing she remainsin denial about, or what?

It's hard to think of her as developing or becoming smarter UNTIL she puts that together.

[JesterX]

Since it is not true at all, there's no reason to come to such realization.

Wait . . . Cersei stated DIRECTLY that it was Sansa's reporting that to her was the reason they were able to come out on top. She said it almost all came to ruin if not for that.

[cocoalover1956]

Ah, I see. Surprising that Sansa is the only character who does this, considering that it's extremely common. But I guess, that's why she is so 'hyper realistic'. Because her mind hides all the unpleasant truths like it does for typical 11 yr olds. She just sails through her fantasy world, because that's how the mind works.

Sansa hardly the only character who doesn't see the world as it is (Cersei in Feast, Tyrion never taking responsibility for his actions, Mya Stone naively thinking she'll marry a knight from a noble house, LF thinking Catelyn loved him, Eddard not seeing how untrustworthy LF was) but other people tend to be more subtle than "my handsome prince will save me from the monsters and we'll live happily ever after". A child has unrealistic expectations of their life and doesn't see people for who they are, big deal; most of them do anyway since they don't fully understand the world they live in until they get more experience.

[Lee-Sensei]

GRRM has said himself that it's wrong to put all the blame for Ned's death on Sansa. She played a part, but it wasn't entirely her fault.

[Mladen]

Wait . . . Cersei stated DIRECTLY that it was Sansa's reporting that to her was the reason they were able to come out on top. She said it almost all came to ruin if not for that.

Yeah, and Cersei is the smartest person around and her word matters. She is basically wrong and it can be seen when you properly analyze the situation. Cersei would be able to capture Ned even without Sansa. Sansa's coming to her basically screwed Sansa the most and tied Ned's hands.

GRRM has said himself that it's wrong to put all the blame for Ned's death on Sansa. She played a part, but it wasn't entirely her fault.

GRRM has said himself that it's wrong to put all the blame for Ned's death on Sansa. She played a part, but it wasn't entirely her fault.

He said that Sansa played role in Ned's demise, not death. And as I said imprisonment and death are two separate things. While you can put some blame on Sansa for Ned's imoprisonment, she had absolutely nothing with his death.

[Cas Stark]

GRRM has said himself that it's wrong to put all the blame for Ned's death on Sansa. She played a part, but it wasn't entirely her fault.

That's fine, but I think the poster's point was, why doesn't Sansa ever think about this, she never in her POV reflects on her actions that day, feels guilty or anything. It's strange.

Her sister felt massive guilt over Mycah's death. In constrast, Sansa never express even in her innermost thoughts, any guilt over having gone to the Queen, so either she remains so clueless she doesn't put it together or so in denial she doesn't want to, I don't see another answer. It would be normal, actually, for her to feel massive, huge amounts of debilitating guilt...more guilt than was deserved even, which is often how guilt works. She seems to feel zero guilt.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Yeah, and Cersei is the smartest person around and her word matters. She is basically wrong and it can be seen when you properly analyze the situation. Cersei would be able to capture Ned even without Sansa. Sansa's coming to her basically screwed Sansa the most and tied Ned's hands.

We should also keep in mind that Cersei told that to Tyrion while conveniently leaving out that Ned came to her and knew about what she did, because she didn't want him to figure out her affair with Jaime. So what Cersei tells is a straight out lie.

[ghosts in winterfell]

I was about to start a Sansa thread, myself but since this one is up . . .

Did Sansa ever realize that it was her going to Cersei to report that Ned was sending them back to Winterfell, is essentially the reason her father lost her head? I'm trying to recall from the chapters.

Littlefinger was the one that sold Ned out.

After King Robert's mortal wounding and his subsequent naming of Eddard as Regent and Lord Protector, Baelish advises Ned that despite their knowledge that Queen Cersei's children are illegitimate and that Stannis Baratheon is the legal heir, the wisest course of action is to ensure Joffrey's succession, a maneuver calculated to avoid all-out war and maximize their own power. Eddard refuses the suggestion and enlists Petyr's help in securing the allegiance of the city watch to ensure its loyalty when he moves against Cersei.[8] Baelish agrees, but betrays Ned, bribing the City Watch to support the Queen. This leads to Stark's arrest and eventual execution for treason.[9]

[Lee-Sensei]

He said that Sansa played role in Ned's demise, not death. And as I said imprisonment and death are two separate things. While you can put some blame on Sansa for Ned's imoprisonment, she had absolutely nothing with his death.

Well... I don't disagree.

[Cry_Havoc]

You raise up very good points what the source of Sansa hate is, but I would like to add a couple things. One of the things that Sansa is disliked by readers is because normally when people read a book they do it because they want to escape reality and delve into another world. However Sansa is so hyper realistic and I have a feeling it frustrates people to read someone who is so.. normal. There is no magic in her narrative when most of the pov characters have magic to a certain degree in their narrative. Several people have said that Sansa was too passive in King's Landing and right now in the Vale when they don't realize that most people would have behaved like Sansa. To me it feels like a lot of people deny they were ever like Sansa or could ever be.

Speak for yourself. No one here was ever a dumb teenager. Ohhhhhhhh no, not a single soul.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Speak for yourself. No one here was ever a dumb teenager. Ohhhhhhhh no, not a single soul.

Last time I checked naivety is not a synonym to 'dumb'. Sansa is not dumb. On the contrary she is an excellent student who excels in most of her subjects, is decent in householding and horse riding, read and writes better than all her brothers combined but is bad in sums. This does not sound to me as a person who is 'dumb'.

[cocoalover1956]

Wait . . . Cersei stated DIRECTLY that it was Sansa's reporting that to her was the reason they were able to come out on top. She said it almost all came to ruin if not for that.

Anything Cersei said in Feast ought to be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm going to re-read what happened in Game since I don't trust my memory right now.

EDIT: Actually, I'm going to agree with what ghosts in winterfell said. LF knew more about Ned's plans that Sansa did and had been planning to betray him from the start, so Cersei mostly likely had that information (or at least the indication that something was up) before Sansa came to her.

[Mladen]

That's fine, but I think the poster's point was, why doesn't Sansa ever think about this, she never in her POV reflects on her actions that day, feels guilty or anything. It's strange.

Her sister felt massive guilt over Mycah's death. In constrast, Sansa never express even in her innermost thoughts, any guilt over having gone to the Queen, so either she remains so clueless she doesn't put it together or so in denial she doesn't want to, I don't see another answer. It would be normal, actually, for her to feel massive, huge amounts of debilitating guilt...more guilt than was deserved even, which is often how guilt works. She seems to feel zero guilt.

Once, she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.

Sansa does show the remorse and regret of trusting Cersei. She does blame on herself, but in order to survive, she can't spend days reminiscing how she "killed" her father. That would have destroyed her. The only way to cope with her loss is to acknowledge the mistake she made and to move on. Saying she never felt any guilt is a bit overreaching.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

One thing that strikes me about Sansa & Joffrey at the trident that she is well aware at that moment that this boy is deeply unpleasant, she is scared and tells Arya to be quite and back off, precisely because she does not want Joffrey's violence to turn towards her sister. Arya of course does not listen to Sansa who is imo doing exactly what Sansa does all through ACOK & ASOS and that is keep her head down and try to avoid the aggressor's attention. Which is a shrewd play BTW.

After Arya and Mycah and Nyrmeria go she turns to Joffrey and is extremely pacifying to him, it seems to me to be to prevent the boy from turning his anger on her. she says she will go for help at that point. IE she gets away ASAP.

Imagine from Sansa's perspective the story she must now tell her father, she has to tell him that this boy his best friends son whom he has betrothed her too is a monster, but Ned does not say "OMG we must break this betrothal you girls are going straight back to Winterfell, I am having words with Robert about this". Nope he does.....nothing. I honestly think he told her to feign amnesia for the sake of her future marriage. He has not broken the engagement. and as we know he went along with Cersei's sentence and killed Lady.

People say Sansa loved Joffrey but I honestly think she has told herself she loves him, because she has no choice as she is going to wed him,so he's cute but you don't just say ok I have to marry this guy, well then I love him. unless you are being a good little Lady and fulfilling the role in life you've been groomed for.

Sansa weaves all manor of falsehoods and truth bends in her mind in order to be OK with marrying him, in the end she believes it herself. After all since that incident he has been a delight towards her, she has re worked events to put her sister in the wrong... a safe villain in the scenario as Arya is her sister, her family, and will never be a real threat to her, unlike Joffrey who is a definite threat to her and whom her father has condemned her to spending her entire life tied to. By the time she goes to Cersei she has completely convinced herself she loves him and everything will be rainbows and buttercups and Cersei is in fact a lovely regal queen and not a selfish cruel bitch.

I won't pretend that her going to Cersei did not contribute to the fall of her household but its far from the cause of it. And she as an uninformed 11 year old does not in my view hold the majority of the fault. Ned being the head of the household and the grown up and the parent ought to have turned that caravan around at the Trident......But wait then we wouldn't have a story...Woops.

Now you can call my reasoning on Sansa's actions and her mind acrobatics is me reading what I want into the tale if you like, but unless you have ever lived in a violent, abusive, and terrifying situation in which adults have tried to kill you perhaps YOU just don't understand what the mind is capable of doing to protect itself.. I have btw so I have a lot of empathy for Sansa here and I think if you read the text closely and apply understanding of being in a life threatening situation and of being a powerless kid then you see what I do.

[Cas Stark]

Sansa does show the remorse and regret of trusting Cersei. She does blame on herself, but in order to survive, she can't spend days reminiscing how she "killed" her father. That would have destroyed her. The only way to cope with her loss is to acknowledge the mistake she made and to move on. Saying she never felt any guilt is a bit overreaching.

One line in 5 books? And that isn't much guilt or blame she's putting on herself there either, and nothing at all about the specifics of her actions. She loved Joff and trusted the Queen and they screwed her over. Nothing at all about her going to the Queen and spilling the plans and how that played into things or any guilt over her own actions.

[jet199]

I understand why people would not like Sansa in AGOT but why do they not like her in the later books. I think GRRM writes characters who grow and change but for some reason many seem to think Sansa has to be defined by how she acted in the first book. Surely Sansa should be judged on how she learns her lessons, deals with her problems and decides to act in the later books and when the series ends.