The source of all Sansa-hate

[Cas Stark]

Give me a list of other self interested blunderers and I will tell you.

We already argued the Ned/Sansa parallel on another thread, which is why I didn't go into it.

Obviously the author's plotting is not in the same category of "exoneration" as finding exonerations within the story itself. Surely you see that the two are not comparable on any level.

[butterbumps!]

Give me a list of other self interested blunderers and I will tell you.

We already argued the Ned/Sansa parallel on another thread, which is why I didn't go into it.

Obviously the author's plotting is not in the same category of "exoneration" as finding exonerations within the story itself. Surely you see that the two are not comparable on any level.

1. Theon's taking of Winterfell.

2. Arya's failure to name Tywin and/ or Gregor (I mention this because she chose a more immediate personal gain)

3. Tyrion with Shae

4. Jon not fighting more vociferously against the Arya rescue mission

Yes, it was argued about, but you didn't actually present anything that discredited the parallel. As in, you did not come up with evidence that proved that Ned's unintentionally blundering against his family's best interests hadn't happened while Sansa's had (the actual parallel I'd drawn). You appealed to a difference of motive behind some of these blunders.

So, again, I'm not insisting that you have to accept the Ned parallel. Please follow me here, I'm trying to work with you. I am not disagreeing with a difference in motive at the moment. I am asking whether you take massive issue with operating out of self-interest as a motive unilaterally. Is self-interest a problem to you in general? I am genuinely asking. If so, does it matter if the self-interest paid off, or is it problematic if it created a blunder.

Oh, of course I agree that the two aren't comparable. The "Martin made him do it" argument isn't an argument at all. At least the "crazy exonerations" weren't "the plot made her do it."

[Cloud]

I have a similar experience as many others. I was indifferent to Sansa before coming to these boards. She was annoying in AGOT but she grew on me. Then I came here. I think this quote from Lord Voldemorts Toe's explains my thoughts best:

"But then I came here and learned that there is apparently a supreme reading of the character that trumps all others, and if you don't agree that she's the strongest, most intelligent, most good, most compassionate future winner of the game of thrones, then you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Not all Sansa fans hold this view but many do. If you see any grey in Sansa's character you are immediately discredited by a few zealous Sansa fans.

It's very insulting to post your thoughts about a character and have someone respond with you "you are missing the subtlety in Sansa chapters" or basically "your an idiot with zero reading comprehension skills thus you aren't able to see the greatness of Sansa like me, an enlightened Sansa fan".

Then there is the way her fans overestimate her. Listening to Sansa fans she is going to become the Queen in the North, Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, Lady of Winterfell, Lady of Casterly Rock, Lady of the Vale, Lady of the Riverlands, Regent of Rickon, and ruler of half the world. It's not that fans her fans hold these viewpoints but if you disagree you are an idiot who is missing the subtle foreshadowing of all this and "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Lastly there is the fact that Sansa fans seem to view Sansa now by what they think she will do in the future. They think Sansa is going to become a political mastermind who kills LF, takes revenge of the Lannisters, and becomes Queen of this and that. While this is very possible it's the fact that if you disagree with the Sansa fans PoV then "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children." This is the problem.

I don't hate Sansa. I hate her fans intolerance of differing viewpoints. Either you subscribe to the Sansa fans approved supreme reading of Sansa or there is something wrong with you.

Yes yes and yes. Couldn't have said it better myself.

:bowdown:

[JesterX]

Even before she knew that he knew about the twincest?

Well, let me get some clarity on the point you're making . . . when you say Cersei lied, are you saying Sansa DID NOT go to her and tell her about Ned's plans? Or are you saying that what Sansa told her didn't make much of a difference?

[David Selig]

Well, let me get some clarity on the point you're making . . . when you say Cersei lied, are you saying Sansa DID NOT go to her and tell her about Ned's plans? Or are you saying that what Sansa told her didn't make much of a difference?

The latter.

[Florina Laufeyson]

What Fun!

:dunno: I love Sansa.

Pretty bad when ol' SENPs here is a voice of reason. :P

He never would have confessed to treason if not for Sansa.

Oh come now, you cannot be this thick. The plot against Ned was happening long before Sansa did anything. All Sansa did was speed up that process. She is not solely responsible for it. She had a part to play but definitely not the sole cause. Stop that.

This counts for me too and actually it is sad since Sansa certainly has been wonderfully created by Martin and has a distinctive role in the books. Though not the one some of her fans want to see her in: the girl next door turned into Superwoman, the female character who is more worthy of feminist analysis than any other ASOIAF character, no matter how brilliant the other female characters are.

We went 16 pages without this kind of bile. Nice job breaking it, bucko. <_<

It's an analogy, not a jape or a jab but a journey of the mind:

snip

:bowdown:

LOL, right? She blows it of and doesn't think about it, doesn't ponder the implications of this information. Nope, continues on her way of doing what LF tells her....which is why her alleged evolution since GOT is majorly over stated. And this is also not "hating Sansa" nor is not "not reading closely" it is reading what is written there, and not making up fantastical rationalizations for it.

Hoary shit. I guess you dont understand how "storing the ammo" works. Especially since Sansa's whole deal has been watching what she can ever since she was basically beaten into submission. Sansa knows she cannot act yet and must become the mask. Sansa does NOT like the plot involving Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir. She actually has ammo to destroy LF, but think for a moment. Right now, is it reasonable for Sansa to use it? Look at her situation. Is it reasonable and a wise decision to go to someone and fire that ammo? Especially considering that Sansa would have to blow her cover to do that and is wanted for regicide? Really? Holding on to that ammo and going with LF right now is actually the smartest thing Sansa has done in a long time.

She tries not to dwell on the past in order to keep her composure and prevent her from going insane.

Thank you, yes. People do this. Its a coping mechanism. "out of sight, out of mind.."

Just keep swimming

Just keep swimming

"Lets not...think about that right now."

Can we now stop beating this dead horse so much that it doesnt even look like a horse anymore?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Pretty bad when ol' SENPs here is a voice of reason. :P

:P I'm not sure whether I should be flattered or insulted.

[DrunkSister]

I have a similar experience as many others. I was indifferent to Sansa before coming to these boards. She was annoying in AGOT but she grew on me. Then I came here. I think this quote from Lord Voldemorts Toe's explains my thoughts best:

"But then I came here and learned that there is apparently a supreme reading of the character that trumps all others, and if you don't agree that she's the strongest, most intelligent, most good, most compassionate future winner of the game of thrones, then you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Not all Sansa fans hold this view but many do. If you see any grey in Sansa's character you are immediately discredited by a few zealous Sansa fans.

It's very insulting to post your thoughts about a character and have someone respond with you "you are missing the subtlety in Sansa chapters" or basically "your an idiot with zero reading comprehension skills thus you aren't able to see the greatness of Sansa like me, an enlightened Sansa fan".

Then there is the way her fans overestimate her. Listening to Sansa fans she is going to become the Queen in the North, Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, Lady of Winterfell, Lady of Casterly Rock, Lady of the Vale, Lady of the Riverlands, Regent of Rickon, and ruler of half the world. It's not that fans her fans hold these viewpoints but if you disagree you are an idiot who is missing the subtle foreshadowing of all this and "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Lastly there is the fact that Sansa fans seem to view Sansa now by what they think she will do in the future. They think Sansa is going to become a political mastermind who kills LF, takes revenge of the Lannisters, and becomes Queen of this and that. While this is very possible it's the fact that if you disagree with the Sansa fans PoV then "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children." This is the problem.

I don't hate Sansa. I hate her fans intolerance of differing viewpoints. Either you subscribe to the Sansa fans approved supreme reading of Sansa or there is something wrong with you.

Are we again using 'hate' as 'I wish them slap on the wrist'? Because hating fans is a bit harsh. Just like hating Sansa is a bit harsh. IMO if you are not contemplating somebody's demise and ruin of all they hold dear, it is not hate, it's being miffed.

A lot of people coming to the forums profess that they have only skimmed her chapters and then go on to make claims on how 'Sansa is X,Y,Z' none of which happens to be true, and when it is pointed out to them, they cry 'waaaaaaaaaaaaaah evil Sansa fans won't let me have my opinions!'. How... repetitive, boring and annoying. And predictable.

For those that profess to know future, there are two kinds. First are the know-it-alls, forums are full of them, they know when Dany will die, how Jon will resurrect, if Lyanna loved Rhaegar, who valonqar is...

And the second kind are the ones who do literature analysis for a living, have studied it in college and have read a lot of stories, and analyzed Sansa's arc to a milimeter on PtP treads. They have reason to predict what they predict, and it is based on the understanding of the books. It still might be wrong, but at least they are basing their predictions on the books as they understand them and not on wishful thinking. I suggest you make screenshots to show them for if it comes out that they have been wrong.

Later, in the SAME conversation. We're talking about a span of seconds. Cersei had no reason to lie to Tyrion about Sansa.

I don't have time for a reread aw **** it of course I do

said Tyrion. “So this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the council?”

“Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt’s gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he’d written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn’t come to me and told me all her father’s plans...”

Tyrion was surprised. “Truly? His own daughter?” Sansa had always seemed such a sweet

child, tender and courteous.

“The girl was wet with love. She would have done anything for Joffrey, until he cut off her father’s head and called it mercy. That put an end to that.”

“His Grace has a unique way of winning the hearts of his subjects,”

Lets see,

“I am looking for a fast trading galley to take you home. These days, the sea is safer than the kingsroad. You will sail as soon as I can find a proper ship, with Septa Mordane and a complement of guards... and yes, with Syrio Forel, if he agrees to enter my service. But say nothing of this. It’s better if no one knows of our plans. We’ll talk again tomorrow.”

...

She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning,sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn’t loved Joffrey as much as she did. “He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn’t listen.” The king had been her last hope.

The king could command Father to let her stay in King’s Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly... only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor’s Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside.

“Please,” she finished, “you have to let me marry Joffrey, I’ll be ever so good a wife to him, you’ll see. I’ll be a queen just like you, I promise.”

...

This is the very morning Arya goes to have her dancing lesson. Sansa asks to see Joffrey, is denied, goes to the queen, is escorted to a different room, Pycelle comes to Eddard telling him Robert is dead.

Eddard summons the council and the game begins.

Littlefinger came next, still garbed in the blue velvets and silver mockingbird cape he had worn the night previous, his boots dusty from riding. “My lords,” he said, smiling at nothing in particular before he turned to Ned. “That little task you set me is accomplished, Lord Eddard.”

(Ned, you dunderhead!)

“When Lord Renly arrives,” Ned said.

Varys gave him a sorrowful look. “I fear Lord Renly has left the city.”

“Left the city?” Ned had counted on Renly’s support.

“He took his leave through a postern gate an hour before dawn, accompanied by Ser Loras Tyrell and some fifty retainers,” Varys told them. “When last seen, they were galloping south in some haste, no doubt bound for Storm’s End or Highgarden.”

So much for Renly and his hundred swords.

So it wasn't so much Eddard plotting with Renly, as Renly running away. Not as Cersei describes.

The royal steward entered and bowed. “Esteemed lords, the king demands the immediate presence of his small council in the throne room.”

Ned had expected Cersei to strike quickly; the summons came as no surprise. “The king is dead,” he said, “but we shall go with you nonetheless. Tom, assemble an escort, if you would.”

And the rest is from Eddard's pov in the throne room.

Behind the throne, twenty Lannister guardsmen waited with longswords hanging from their belts. Crimson cloaks draped their shoulders and steel lions crested their helms. But Littlefinger had kept his promise; all along the walls, in front of Robert’s tapestries with their scenes of hunt and battle, the gold-cloaked ranks of the City Watch stood stiffly to attention, each man’s hand clasped around the haft of an eight-foot-long spear tipped in black iron. They outnumbered the Lannisters five to one.

Look, Ned was doomed when he walked in here.

What was the advantage that Sansa gave Cersei with her information? When she leaves Robert isn't even dead yet, and I doubt Eddard told her he will convene a council and challenge Joffrey.

I cannot see anything than purely tactical advantage of knowing who is where in the household, but even so, it was the Goldcloaks that decided the matter, and Littlefinger who betrayed Ned the most.

I don't care if she had the reason to lie or if she was just being... Cersei. She did not tell the truth here.

“So, now that we are of one purpose, we ought have no more secrets between us. You say Joffrey had Lord Eddard killed, Varys dismissed Ser Barristan, and Littlefinger gifted us with Lord Slynt. Who murdered Jon Arryn? “

Cersei yanked her hand back. “How should I know?”

“The grieving widow in the Eyrie seems to think it was me. Where did she come by that notion, I wonder?”“I’m sure I don’t know. That fool Eddard Stark accused me of the same thing. He hinted that Lord Arryn suspected or... well, believed.”

“That you were fucking our sweet Jaime?”

She slapped him.

“Did you think I was as blind as Father?” Tyrion rubbed his cheek. “Who you lie with is no matter to me... although it doesn’t seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other.”

She slapped him.

Why demure if she knew that he knew?

ETA: and more importantly, why keep quiet on Eddard telling her he knew?

[Mladen]

snip

I simply don't understand where all these attacks to Sansa fans come from. I would understand if this thread dealt with Sansa's actions in the books, but this entire debate transformed into the referendum whether Sansa fans (of whom I proudly say I am) are good or bad for this community. I have met all Sansa fans in the past 2 years on this board, and rarely I have met someone of them who claims to have "superpower reading skills others don't have". Most people I admire around here are not actually Sansa fans...

But we are not just facing the attacks on Sansa fans here. Oh, no... This thread has actually come to the point where anyone who says remotely nice thing about Sansa, something rather reasonable and textually proven is attacked. Look at butterbumps, who has been facing the "Sansa fan witch hunt" because she argued some reasonable POVs here. If it was me, I would get it... But there is entire gap size of Pacific when it comes to "being Sansa fan" between me and people like bumps. These attacks haven't just hurt Sansa fans, they actually did a great disservice to all people who analyze Sansa with objective, neutral tone using only textual proofs and logic itself. If this was just a mere clash between haters and fans, we would all be fine. But, now we have entered dangerous zone where objective people are being discouraged of giving reasonable opinions.

[Cas Stark]

What Fun!

Pretty bad when ol' SENPs here is a voice of reason. :P

Oh come now, you cannot be this thick. The plot against Ned was happening long before Sansa did anything. All Sansa did was speed up that process. She is not solely responsible for it. She had a part to play but definitely not the sole cause. Stop that.

We went 16 pages without this kind of bile. Nice job breaking it, bucko. <_<

:bowdown:

Hoary shit. I guess you dont understand how "storing the ammo" works. Especially since Sansa's whole deal has been watching what she can ever since she was basically beaten into submission. Sansa knows she cannot act yet and must become the mask. Sansa does NOT like the plot involving Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir. She actually has ammo to destroy LF, but think for a moment. Right now, is it reasonable for Sansa to use it? Look at her situation. Is it reasonable and a wise decision to go to someone and fire that ammo? Especially considering that Sansa would have to blow her cover to do that and is wanted for regicide? Really? Holding on to that ammo and going with LF right now is actually the smartest thing Sansa has done in a long time.

Thank you, yes. People do this. Its a coping mechanism. "out of sight, out of mind.."

Just keep swimming

Just keep swimming

"Lets not...think about that right now."

Can we now stop beating this dead horse so much that it doesnt even look like a horse anymore?

LOL. Storing the ammo is she? Funny, since we have her POV, if she is "storing the ammo" it's interesting that she hasn't reflected at all on this ammo and her possible uses for it, or how it might related other events. It looks like Miss Stark simply decided to forget about it, not analyze it for future use as ammo.

[juanml82]

I have a similar experience as many others. I was indifferent to Sansa before coming to these boards. She was annoying in AGOT but she grew on me. Then I came here. I think this quote from Lord Voldemorts Toe's explains my thoughts best:

"But then I came here and learned that there is apparently a supreme reading of the character that trumps all others, and if you don't agree that she's the strongest, most intelligent, most good, most compassionate future winner of the game of thrones, then you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Not all Sansa fans hold this view but many do. If you see any grey in Sansa's character you are immediately discredited by a few zealous Sansa fans.

It's very insulting to post your thoughts about a character and have someone respond with you "you are missing the subtlety in Sansa chapters" or basically "your an idiot with zero reading comprehension skills thus you aren't able to see the greatness of Sansa like me, an enlightened Sansa fan".

Then there is the way her fans overestimate her. Listening to Sansa fans she is going to become the Queen in the North, Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, Lady of Winterfell, Lady of Casterly Rock, Lady of the Vale, Lady of the Riverlands, Regent of Rickon, and ruler of half the world. It's not that fans her fans hold these viewpoints but if you disagree you are an idiot who is missing the subtle foreshadowing of all this and "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Lastly there is the fact that Sansa fans seem to view Sansa now by what they think she will do in the future. They think Sansa is going to become a political mastermind who kills LF, takes revenge of the Lannisters, and becomes Queen of this and that. While this is very possible it's the fact that if you disagree with the Sansa fans PoV then "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children." This is the problem.

I don't hate Sansa. I hate her fans intolerance of differing viewpoints. Either you subscribe to the Sansa fans approved supreme reading of Sansa or there is something wrong with you.

:agree:

I understand the Sansa hate because I used to be one of them - at least during the first book. I couldn't stand her and much preferred Arya over her. It was only when Sansa said “Maybe my brother will give me your head" that made me change my mind about her.

It's always the quiet ones. But we know her most vocal fans response to the idea that she's shaping up to be a tyrant.

1. Sansa was a spoiled, naive, snobby, brat. This is the result of both her upbringing and her age (yes, I said it). She was sheltered in the most extreme way: the North doesn't seem to be as involved in politics as the south, and even the little amount of politics Sansa was probably left out of, unlike Robb and Jon, due to her sex. Can we please not forget her father was Ned, who was one of the stupidest players we've seen so far in the series? It's not like she was raised by Olenna Tyrell. I've also gotten the impression that Ned and Cat saw Sansa as this sweet, innocent, young lady and didn't want to ruin that with the harsh reality of the world, but I may be wrong.

Of course, that doesn't fully excuse her personality and behavior because the other Starks aren't like this. That's where Sansa's personality comes in. She's trusting, idealistic, and likes to believe in the best in people - you can see this is true based on how Ned described Lady. While these are generally good characteristics, she possesses these qualities to an extreme so that it makes her naive, foolish, and self-deceiving. She's still growing out of this.

Actually, all Stark kids were raised rather naive. The difference is how fast they grow out of it.

Robb's Jeynegate is likely a combination of Ned's lessons/idea of honor and Catelyn treatment of Jon. I don't think Robb ever grows to leave behind that naivety.

Jon's ideas of the Night's Watch, despite having an uncle there who would go back to Winterfell from time to time. It kind of still lingers in him with his plan to let all the wildlings through and cause him a slight health issue.

Bran wants to be a knight. 'nuff said, he starts as Sansa in a reverse gender.

Arya expects the BWB will rescue her. She abandons her parents teaching for good after a while, though.

[ghosts in winterfell]

Can we now stop beating this dead horse so much that it doesnt even look like a horse anymore?

NO!

[mambru]

"So what" is that Cersei had no earthly reason to make up a lie about Sansa to cover up her affair with Jaime. Not to Tyrion.

"No earthly reason?" You think she's perfectly okay with Tyrion (who she fears and loathes) knowing her most dangerous secret and would never bother trying to hide it from him when she's hidden it from everyone else all her life? She wouldn't want to put such a powerful weapon to use against her in his hands.

[juanml82]

I simply don't understand where all these attacks to Sansa fans come from. I would understand if this thread dealt with Sansa's actions in the books, but this entire debate transformed into the referendum whether Sansa fans (of whom I proudly say I am) are good or bad for this community. I have met all Sansa fans in the past 2 years on this board, and rarely I have met someone of them who claims to have "superpower reading skills others don't have". Most people I admire around here are not actually Sansa fans...

But we are not just facing the attacks on Sansa fans here. Oh, no... This thread has actually come to the point where anyone who says remotely nice thing about Sansa, something rather reasonable and textually proven is attacked. Look at butterbumps, who has been facing the "Sansa fan witch hunt" because she argued some reasonable POVs here. If it was me, I would get it... But there is entire gap size of Pacific when it comes to "being Sansa fan" between me and people like bumps. These attacks haven't just hurt Sansa fans, they actually did a great disservice to all people who analyze Sansa with objective, neutral tone using only textual proofs and logic itself. If this was just a mere clash between haters and fans, we would all be fine. But, now we have entered dangerous zone where objective people are being discouraged of giving reasonable opinions.

There are no "objective people". That's an oxymoron. People are, by mere definition, subjective creatures. If you truly believe a work of art (or any other body of knowledge) can be analyzed in such a fashion you are giving credence to l3ol3o and, while you'll refuse to understand it, deluding yourself.

[Jasta11]

Again, I just don't understand the flailing around as to whenever or not Sansa going to Cercei had an impact. The author himself confirms it. He even outlines that the impact was not significant enough to doom Ned by itself, but it was there. We can argue on the specific nitty-gritty from here to the Long Night, but when the author is so categorical it seems to me personal interpretations should make way for what is now basically a fact.

[Florina Laufeyson]

:P I'm not sure whether I should be flattered or insulted.

A little from column A and a little from column B.

<3

LOL. Storing the ammo is she? Funny, since we have her POV, if she is "storing the ammo" it's interesting that she hasn't reflected at all on this ammo and her possible uses for it, or how it might related other events. It looks like Miss Stark simply decided to forget about it, not analyze it for future use as ammo.

Sure, keep telling yourself that and convincing yourself Sansa has no real part to play.

Classy.

NO!

K, i lol'd.

[Mladen]

There are no "objective people". That's an oxymoron. People are, by mere definition, subjective creatures. If you truly believe a work of art (or any other body of knowledge) can be analyzed in such a fashion you are giving credence to l3ol3o and, while you'll refuse to understand it, deluding yourself.

Yeah, you can argue that there are no objective people. But, there are those who use logic and reason in approaching to the certain topic. This is what butterbumps did on this thread, and somehow she was boxed with the "crazy Sansa fans" (me being proud member of the group). That is the point. These nonsensical generalization discouraged polite, civilized discussions between people who think otherwise than Sansa haters and fans. If we are going to put everyone in one of those groups, then we truly failed in having anything that resembles adult conversation. When people who have more measured approach to Sansa than radical Sansa fans or haters, are being so outrageously attacked, then we cut all the good debates in the root and we can continue shouting to each other: "I love her" "I hate her" ad nauseum. I hope you can see why this is bad...

[DrunkSister]

I didnt call you any name you didnt deserved. you cant use any textual evidence to prove a "feeling" since they arent universal. You can love Sansa and whant to kiss her all over because of the evidences you gathered while other can dislike her for the exact same evidences. You are the one saying "If you dont like her as I do we didnt read the same book and you are stupid readers" And to that I answered some ppl dislike her for good reason and some other like her for good reasons too, it all depends on your priorities and morals. You dont have the only answer to everything.

Again You can like her or dislike her with good reasons and good arguments on both side.

Internet teached me to stop arguing with any ignoramus after 5 posts since they think 100 stupid arguments are better than 1 good solid one.

So basically, when people who hate Sansa continuously blame her for things she hasn't done, or things that they claim only she has done, or character traits that she does not posses - that is only a matter of feeling, not of fact?

I have 0 problem with those who dislike Sansa because of what is in the books, it is when they claim that Sansa is horrible and worthy of hate because of what they have pulled out of thin air that I get annoyed. Because that is sloppy reading.

There could be good arguments on both side, but... I don't see them. All I see is reading errors and strawmen. To read this tread and still claim that good arguments are on both side... 'she killed Lady with her lies', 'she betrayed Ned so she is guilty of killing him', 'she bullied Arya and called her horseface', 'sansa is selfish, stupid, cares for nobody' her IQ is low...'

You read all that and thought people are trolling?

This is our last exchange, you do not seem to be reading the same tread as I.

[Woman of War]

- I detest Tyrion with every single fiber of my being. He is a vile, loathsome little cockroach and I would love for someone to off him unceremoniously and nobody even care that he was dead.

I found this somewhere in these forums. I have never read anything like that about Sansa.

I do not understand why people complain about mild annoyance expressed towards the character of Sansa if strong hateposts like that about e.g. Tyrion (or I have seen something like that about Dany) seem to be perfectly ok. Why are only Sansa fans entitled to sensitivity about their favorite while all others simply have to stuff it?

[Cas Stark]

1. Theon's taking of Winterfell.

2. Arya's failure to name Tywin and/ or Gregor (I mention this because she chose a more immediate personal gain)

3. Tyrion with Shae

4. Jon not fighting more vociferously against the Arya rescue mission

Yes, it was argued about, but you didn't actually present anything that discredited the parallel. As in, you did not come up with evidence that proved that Ned's unintentionally blundering against his family's best interests hadn't happened while Sansa's had (the actual parallel I'd drawn). You appealed to a difference of motive behind some of these blunders.

So, again, I'm not insisting that you have to accept the Ned parallel. Please follow me here, I'm trying to work with you. I am not disagreeing with a difference in motive at the moment. I am asking whether you take massive issue with operating out of self-interest as a motive unilaterally. Is self-interest a problem to you in general? I am genuinely asking. If so, does it matter if the self-interest paid off, or is it problematic if it created a blunder.

Oh, of course I agree that the two aren't comparable. The "Martin made him do it" argument isn't an argument at all. At least the "crazy exonerations" weren't "the plot made her do it."

1. No excuse for it, his story is very tragic, but that doesn't excuse it.

2. She does realize her mistake though and tries to take back the second kill and uses the third to free the Northmen, so that shows a lot of growth, I don't see it as really applicable, or that it's personal selfishness at play as much as not understanding the scope and she does again regret her initial choices and sees her mistake.

3. Not sure what we're talking about here, if it's her murder, then no excuse whatsoever.

4. I don't see much downside here, he gets himself out on a technicality of not breaking his vows and the escape ends up helping the Bolton's adversaries, and freeing a family member isn't exactly "selfish" in quite the same way.

Ned is a lord who is dealing with the political landscape. He is trying to craft a short and long term strategy that will safeguard his House his family and the King. His goals and the issues he is dealing with are simply too different to be parallel to those of a teenage girl who thinks she is in love. You say he did things that weren't in the interest of his family but that is only if you look at in the short term...if he leaves at the Trident or cancels the engagement he creates a huge rift w/Robert and we don't know what those consequences would be, only looking at in in the extreme short term is this Ned "going against his family's interests"..its the same reason he accepts the Hand position i the first place.

And, again as I also said, he is acting out of a sense of honor and duty, not selfishness, where he is attempting to chart a course that balances his legal duty to the King, his personal allegiance to Robert and that of his House and family....this is simply so much more complicated than Sansa's situation as to make them not remotely comparable. And I do not either accept the concept that Sansa did this all because she felt it was her "duty" to love Joff,this a BS rationalization as well, there is no duty to fall madly in love with your fiancee in Westeros to the extent that you lie and disrespect your own family.

There is also a difference between "self interest" and selfishness though it's a grey line. Obviously, protecting one's family is in their own self interest, but it's not usually regarded as selfish, where a desire for one's own personal agrandisement or goals AT THE EXPENSE of others would be selfish. There nothing wrong with self interest as long as it's tempered, it doesn't necessarily equate to selfishness.