The source of all Sansa-hate

[brady10]

I've been a longtime lurker and felt that i should contribute to this thread.

I have never been a Sansa fan nor have I ever hated her. I can also understand why many may dislike her, a lot of people especially on this board underestimate the value of first impression. Personally I believe it's one of the reasons there are so many people that don't really care about Sansa and Catelyn.

Sansa in AGOT is selfish, snubbish, extremely naive and also has poor judgement (which is understable considering she is a sheltered 11 year old girl). personally I feel she got better in the other four books, obviously not as much as some of her hardcore fans but there was a lot of character growth from her.

Unfortunately for her as unfair as this sounds many people will never forgive her for the trident incident and selling out Ned to Cersei.

Both incidents did not win her any fans, had she told the truth to Robert, Lady would have never gotten killed worst case scenario she would ahve been sent back to winterfell. Then there was the Cersei incident and no matter how you want to dice it, Sansa did have a part to play in Ned's demise(not death) how big a part did she play in his demise depends on your POV, Although she never expected her father to be executed her actions screwed her and Arya big time. Personally I feel had sansa been the only female stark or had Arya been older then many people wouldnt criticize her as hard as they do.

The one thing that iI've noticed with Sansa and Catelyn fans is that you can't criticize their characters. Any argument or statement that doesn't put them in a positive light automatically makes you a hater or an anti-feminist.

[Woman of War]

So, basically, people who hate Sansa (or hate on Sansa) are sloppy readers with no grasp on text and who think that opinions are facts.

That is the source of Sansa hate.

Are you serious or is this irony? If it is then I am sorry of having misunderstood you.

But it would be incredibly arrogant to assume that only those who agree with you can grasp the text and all others are sloppy readers. I just as well could call you the sloppy one, who cannot tell opinion from facts and declare my interpretation as the only one that counts.

I have a similar experience as many others. I was indifferent to Sansa before coming to these boards. She was annoying in AGOT but she grew on me. Then I came here. I think this quote from Lord Voldemorts Toe's explains my thoughts best:

"But then I came here and learned that there is apparently a supreme reading of the character that trumps all others, and if you don't agree that she's the strongest, most intelligent, most good, most compassionate future winner of the game of thrones, then you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Not all Sansa fans hold this view but many do. If you see any grey in Sansa's character you are immediately discredited by a few zealous Sansa fans.

It's very insulting to post your thoughts about a character and have someone respond with you "you are missing the subtlety in Sansa chapters" or basically "your an idiot with zero reading comprehension skills thus you aren't able to see the greatness of Sansa like me, an enlightened Sansa fan".

Then there is the way her fans overestimate her. Listening to Sansa fans she is going to become the Queen in the North, Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, Lady of Winterfell, Lady of Casterly Rock, Lady of the Vale, Lady of the Riverlands, Regent of Rickon, and ruler of half the world. It's not that fans her fans hold these viewpoints but if you disagree you are an idiot who is missing the subtle foreshadowing of all this and "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children."

Lastly there is the fact that Sansa fans seem to view Sansa now by what they think she will do in the future. They think Sansa is going to become a political mastermind who kills LF, takes revenge of the Lannisters, and becomes Queen of this and that. While this is very possible it's the fact that if you disagree with the Sansa fans PoV then "you haven't read the books right, you're arguably sexist and you don't even know it, you are lacking in reading comprehension and you hate children." This is the problem.

I don't hate Sansa. I hate her fans intolerance of differing viewpoints. Either you subscribe to the Sansa fans approved supreme reading of Sansa or there is something wrong with you.

Agree

[cocoalover1956]

I found this somewhere in these forums. I have never read anything like that about Sansa.

I do not understand why people complain about mild annoyance expressed towards the character of Sansa if strong hateposts like that about e.g. Tyrion (or I have seen something like that about Dany) seem to be perfectly ok. Why are only Sansa fans entitled to sensitivity about their favorite while all others simply have to stuff it?

Well I have read that kind of thing about Sansa. Not on this forum, but in the comments sections of one HBO's articles. I don't recalling anyone in this forum saying that kind of quote is an okay thing to say about a character, or that fans of other characters "simply have to stuff it". You're denouncing us for something we didn't even say here.

[Woman of War]

I am sorry, cocoalover, but this is a quote from this forum a few days ago. I only did not want to give the name of the poster in order not to embarrass her but I easily could quote directly, if you want proof.

[Mladen]

The one thing that iI've noticed with Sansa and Catelyn fans is that you can't criticize their characters. Any argument or statement that doesn't put them in a positive light automatically makes you a hater or an anti-feminist.

Brady10, first things first, welcome to the boards... I wish we have met on more pleasant place :). I wish you nice and great time here :cheers:

Now, I think personally you are wrong, or at least confusing Sansa fans with Dany fans. Misogyny argument is mostly brought up when Dany is discussed and it has been rather horrible practice for some time on every Dany thread. As for Sansa fans, we have no problem of acknowledging that our character isn't the most likable and that are people who dislike her. When faced with serious criticism, like Florina have done on this thread, we can have a decent debate. But, here, right now, we simply can't. Not because it is impossible to find common language, but because this thread is no longer about Sansa, but something else...

[butterbumps!]

1. No excuse for it, his story is very tragic, but that doesn't excuse it.

2. She does realize her mistake though and tries to take back the second kill and uses the third to free the Northmen, so that shows a lot of growth, I don't see it as really applicable, or that it's personal selfishness at play as much as not understanding the scope and she does again regret her initial choices and sees her mistake.

3. Not sure what we're talking about here, if it's her murder, then no excuse whatsoever.

4. I don't see much downside here, he gets himself out on a technicality of not breaking his vows and the escape ends up helping the Bolton's adversaries, and freeing a family member isn't exactly "selfish" in quite the same way.

I'm not asking if you excuse these things. I'm asking if you hate these characters who have operated out of self-interest and blundered. You cited Sansa's "selfish/ self-interest" motive as a reason why you dislike her intensely. I am trying to understand whether this reason you have cited as a dealbreaker of sorts wrt Sansa is something you are consistent about for all the other characters.

Judging from your response it appears you are wildly inconsistent. Do you realize that you seem to approach the way you interpret Sansa's "selfish" act with an immediate prejudice against her in ways you're not applying elsewhere? Theon's actually had 2 boys killed as a result of this blunder, but he's "tragic?" Arya fucked up and went for the immediate gain, but realizes her mistake and it's personal growth? But Sansa's 180 in her last chapter doesn't similarly neutralize the vitriol against her for her blunder? And no, I am not talking about Shae's murder, but the ridiculous blunder of his bringing her to KL (because he wanted her there), setting himself (and her) up as a target, falling in love with her despite her being his employee paid specifically to pretend she loved him, taking for granted she'd work for free and putting her in the castle as a servant. Like, you've gone on about Sansa's loving Jof, and her desire to be with him as hugely selfish, but Tyrion's an adult, who hired a hooker to pretend to love him, and all sorts of mishaps occur as a result of his wanting to keep her close to him.

And, god help me I cannot believe I'm writing this, but the Arya mission is arguably what sets off the actions of Ramsay's letter. (I would like to substantiate at this point that I'm broadly in favor of the Arya mission, but acknowledging that this had a causal effect on the Boltons targeting the Watch).

Ned is a lord who is dealing with the political landscape. He is trying to craft a short and long term strategy that will safeguard his House his family and the King. His goals and the issues he is dealing with are simply too different to be parallel to those of a teenage girl who thinks she is in love. You say he did things that weren't in the interest of his family but that is only if you look at in the short term...if he leaves at the Trident or cancels the engagement he creates a huge rift w/Robert and we don't know what those consequences would be, only looking at in in the extreme short term is this Ned "going against his family's interests"..its the same reason he accepts the Hand position i the first place.

Don't you see that Sansa-- as the prince's betrothed-- is also navigating this political landscape?

That aside, the parallel I actually drew is over the fact that both Ned and Sansa unintentionally work against their family's interest. I can't believe you're actually contesting that-- Ned's actions are only against his family's interest in the short-term? Is this a joke? Ned handed his family over to Cersei in a handbasket. I'm sorry, but how do his daughters become hostages/ vagabonds if they were safely sent to Winterfell? What could Cersei hold over his head if Sansa were not there as a threat for which Ned to recant his "treason?" It would have set off a completely different chain of events. And seriously, Ned is the Hand of the king. If he was willing to resign over killing Dany and suffer the blowback, then I think he could have negotiated a way to save his family, for heaven's sake. Unless you consider his resignation over Dany to be a dastardly deed on his part too?

And, again as I also said, he is acting out of a sense of honor and duty, not selfishness, where he is attempting to chart a course that balances his legal duty to the King, his personal allegiance to Robert and that of his House and family....this is simply so much more complicated than Sansa's situation as to make them not remotely comparable. And I do not either accept the concept that Sansa did this all because she felt it was her "duty" to love Joff,this a BS rationalization as well, there is no duty to fall madly in love with your fiancee in Westeros to the extent that you lie and disrespect your own family.

I don't understand why you are so resistant to the fact that Ned, all this while, tacitly approved of the Lannisters, and therefore, her marriage to Joff, despite the problematic fissures. Sansa is not being released from her betrothal by her father. Until Ned tells her that she is no longer going to marry Joff, she had no choice but to marry Jof, and reconcile this despite the problematic pieces of his character. That's what I've called a "duty." Had she become distant from Jof, this would also be disobedience, because she's supposed to marry him, and by extension, please him.

I'm curious how you visualize a more acceptable response from her toward Jof during this time (forget the going to Cersei part). I am not pleased by her Jof affection to be sure, though I don't find it as problematic as you do it seems, and I'm curious what you think a more respectable approach would have been.

I'd also like clarification about whether "disrespecting your family" is another unilateral cause for turning you away from a character. For example, is Jaime wrong for refusing Tywin, and was Theon right for going Greyjoy?

There is also a difference between "self interest" and selfishness though it's a grey line. Obviously, protecting one's family is in their own self interest, but it's not usually regarded as selfish, where a desire for one's own personal agrandisement or goals AT THE EXPENSE of others would be selfish. There nothing wrong with self interest as long as it's tempered, it doesn't necessarily equate to selfishness.

Ok, I'm on board with exploitative self-interest as being rather unsympathetic as far as motives go. But being exploitative wouldn't apply to Sansa's Cersei talk, right? I mean, you're not saying that she knew the danger this posed, knew the outcome, and decided to try to get ahead at her family's expense anyway, right?

I found this somewhere in these forums. I have never read anything like that about Sansa.

I do not understand why people complain about mild annoyance expressed towards the character of Sansa if strong hateposts like that about e.g. Tyrion (or I have seen something like that about Dany) seem to be perfectly ok. Why are only Sansa fans entitled to sensitivity about their favorite while all others simply have to stuff it?

Yea, I disapprove of that, but for what it's worth, I've seen a bunch of variations of "I hope Sansa is raped up the ass by a spiked helmet" (that was an actual post). A lot of that sort of vitriol is sexual in terms of Sansa, and I think they tend to get deleted, which is why they don't appear as much.

[DrunkSister]

Are you serious or is this irony? If it is then I am sorry of having misunderstood you.

But it would be incredibly arrogant to assume that only those who agree with you can grasp the text and all others are sloppy readers. I just as well could call you the sloppy one, who cannot tell opinion from facts and declare my interpretation as the only one that counts.

It is exasperation.

I am okay with not caring for Sansa. What I don't like is saying things like it is justified to hate Sansa and then list the reasons that are simply fanfiction. When Sansa people talk about is not Sansa that exists in the books written by GRRM.

Or blaming Sansa for things that other characters don't get blamed for. I have listed examples of the double standard and I am very interested to find out why it exists. There are also examples on this tread of selective reading where posters forget that other characters did the same.

And then I am told that I am easily offended and stupid and that it is a matter of feelings and not facts - what Sansa did or didn't do. Or whether the double standard exists. So, evidence and causality are matter of opinion.

Opinions are not facts. And while we may feel differently about what happened, and differently extrapolate from what we have in the books, I don't see how the events that we see come to pass are subjective.

I've been a longtime lurker and felt that i should contribute to this thread.

I have never been a Sansa fan nor have I ever hated her. I can also understand why many may dislike her, a lot of people especially on this board underestimate the value of first impression. Personally I believe it's one of the reasons there are so many people that don't really care about Sansa and Catelyn.

Sansa in AGOT is selfish, snubbish, extremely naive and also has poor judgement (which is understable considering she is a sheltered 11 year old girl). personally I feel she got better in the other four books, obviously not as much as some of her hardcore fans but there was a lot of character growth from her.

Unfortunately for her as unfair as this sounds many people will never forgive her for the trident incident and selling out Ned to Cersei.

Both incidents did not win her any fans, had she told the truth to Robert, Lady would have never gotten killed worst case scenario she would ahve been sent back to winterfell. Then there was the Cersei incident and no matter how you want to dice it, Sansa did have a part to play in Ned's demise(not death) how big a part did she play in his demise depends on your POV, Although she never expected her father to be executed her actions screwed her and Arya big time. Personally I feel had sansa been the only female stark or had Arya been older then many people wouldnt criticize her as hard as they do.

The one thing that iI've noticed with Sansa and Catelyn fans is that you can't criticize their characters. Any argument or statement that doesn't put them in a positive light automatically makes you a hater or an anti-feminist.

:rolleyes: The way we all rushed on you like harpies that we are.

[Cas Stark]

LOL, I give up. Again, I don't hate Sansa. I find her to be, and please, no more dialogue on this, too passive, generally unreflective, unimaginative, and having achieved not much in terms of her personal growth over 5 books, and much less likeable than the rest of the Starks. It pains me greatly that she will likely live and Arya will likely die. That's it. What I object to is the Sansa whitewashing that goes on.

I don't hate Theon, I don't hate Tyrion, though I now dislike him immensely. I love Arya and Jon.

I find that, you-- take it however you wish-- that alot of your parallels are major stretches. If others don't or do that's fine to. I'm out of here as this is getting nowhere, like 99% of discussions about Sansa. It has now degenerated into "Sansa fan witch hunt" accusations, and then some wonder why Sansa's fan base has a strange reputation. LOL.

[Ser Creighton]

I simply don't understand where all these attacks to Sansa fans come from. I would understand if this thread dealt with Sansa's actions in the books, but this entire debate transformed into the referendum whether Sansa fans (of whom I proudly say I am) are good or bad for this community. I have met all Sansa fans in the past 2 years on this board, and rarely I have met someone of them who claims to have "superpower reading skills others don't have". Most people I admire around here are not actually Sansa fans...

But we are not just facing the attacks on Sansa fans here. Oh, no... This thread has actually come to the point where anyone who says remotely nice thing about Sansa, something rather reasonable and textually proven is attacked. Look at butterbumps, who has been facing the "Sansa fan witch hunt" because she argued some reasonable POVs here. If it was me, I would get it... But there is entire gap size of Pacific when it comes to "being Sansa fan" between me and people like bumps. These attacks haven't just hurt Sansa fans, they actually did a great disservice to all people who analyze Sansa with objective, neutral tone using only textual proofs and logic itself. If this was just a mere clash between haters and fans, we would all be fine. But, now we have entered dangerous zone where objective people are being discouraged of giving reasonable opinions.

I actually like Sansa, I don't love the character but I have become more interested in her story then the past. The backlash on Sansa does seem to stem from small groups of fans, that have a tendency to over romanticize, analyze, and centralize her. I have also seen the attacks on posters who don't like her or even are just not into her. Sexism being a word thrown around just a couple of weeks ago on anyone who didn't like the character, one person just said he was not into her character, suddenly he was a sexist. This basic idea holds true for most characters. It's like a constant feud between groups on this site, which I really don't like as it ruins most discussions on a character. I also am not a fan of hate threads on any character, no matter how welled they are veiled, my personal belief is that some people need to learn to grow up and still have fun.

I really like Jon, but have argued or disagreed with some of his fans over the same thing as I listed with Sansa, but I don't let anyone effect my impression of a given character because of poor behavior. I am a football fan I get bad fans but they don't effect how I feel about my team. There are so many things to talk about with these characters, stuff I am still learning about the books and it's a shame that every other thread on this site is a fight. I have my things like everyone else, I will slam slavers all day, and I don't like attempts to centralize a character. But I don't get the constant need to argue over... well stupid shit again and again. Though I find extreme arguing over tidbits in a fantasy series stupid, discussion that's one thing but arguing over stuff you don't have to look at? I don't know it's not my thing.

I will say I think from Pawn to player is wrong, but it is really a general thought about the title. I don't feel any of the characters are really players, some think they are, but there seem to be only to real players in the series, and everyone else appears to be their pawns. Though that is a different discussion.

[Woman of War]

Good night to all of you now and peace on earth!

(I only wanted to have the last word in this thread :D )

[Mladen]

Good night to all of you now and peace on earth!

(I only wanted to have the last word in this thread :D )

I am sorry, but the day you have the last word on any Sansa thread would be indeed tragic day :)

And I say with whole respect and honesty of the world...

[butterbumps!]

LOL, I give up. Again, I don't hate Sansa. I find her to be, and please, no more dialogue on this, too passive, generally unreflective, unimaginative, and having achieved not much in terms of her personal growth over 5 books, and much less likeable than the rest of the Starks. It pains me greatly that she will likely live and Arya will likely die. That's it. What I object to is the Sansa whitewashing that goes on.

I don't hate Theon, I don't hate Tyrion, though I now dislike him immensely. I love Arya and Jon.

I find that, you-- take it however you wish-- that alot of your parallels are major stretches. If others don't or do that's fine to. I'm out of here as this is getting nowhere, like 99% of discussions about Sansa. It has now degenerated into "Sansa fan witch hunt" accusations, and then some wonder why Sansa's fan base has a strange reputation. LOL.

lol, ok, translation:

I want to be able to call Sansa unreflective, unimaginative, unevolved and passive without having to substantiate those points. I want my assertions about her character to go unchallenged. Those who challenge this are guilty of whitewashing.

I don't hate Theon, I don't hate Tyrion, though I now dislike him immensely. I love Arya and Jon. Which means that you're onto something, bumps, in that it's clearly not the thing I cited as a reason for disliking her on its own, since I'm not as negative about that facet in these other characters.

I find your argument-- that both Ned and Sansa have unintentionally brought harm to their family-- inaccurate, despite the text. I've made huge sweeping statements about crazy Sansa fans, disparaged their "crazy " arguments, refused to engage on points that dealt with-- ironically-- requests for more "reflective, imaginative and evolved" inventory about the root of my Sansa "dislike," and the communication failure is definitely on the part of you and other Sansa advocates.

[Cas Stark]

lol, ok, translation:

I want to be able to call Sansa unreflective, unimaginative, unevolved and passive without having to substantiate those points. I want my assertions about her character to go unchallenged. Those who challenge this are guilty of whitewashing.

I don't hate Theon, I don't hate Tyrion, though I now dislike him immensely. I love Arya and Jon. Which means that you're onto something, bumps, in that it's clearly not the thing I cited as a reason for disliking her on its own, since I'm not as negative about that facet in these other characters.

I find your argument-- that both Ned and Sansa have unintentionally brought harm to their family-- inaccurate, despite the text. I've made huge sweeping statements about crazy Sansa fans, disparaged their "crazy " arguments, refused to engage on points that dealt with-- ironically-- requests for more "reflective, imaginative and evolved" inventory about the root of my Sansa "dislike," and the communication failure is definitely on the part of you and other Sansa advocates.

Oy, I have cited the text for all of these character traits over and over again. But, it gets' boring. It's boring and stupid when then people post the definition of "passive" as if you are literally too stupid to understand the word. And then simply tell you your opinion is wrong because because she doesn't sit like a troll the entire series. But, whatever you do, whatever actual excerpts you post, it's never enough. The examples of why she is passive are never agreed upon, or you are then accused of victim blaming and someone will post the definition of stockholm syndrome. Her lack of reflection, as has been posted on this very thread, is excused. Her lack of growth, which has been posted on this very thread is ignored or again your opinion is refuted and you are told you're not understanding the text.

There are only so many times it's worth it to keep dragging up the cites before you're sick of it. I'm sick of it. I'm not doing it again because I've done it, other people have done it, over and over again and it always ends the same way.

Neither Theon, Tyrion, Arya or Jon could be described as passive, unimaginative, unreflective or having lacked any substantial character growth, granting that Tyrion has had negative character growth, so your criciticism here seems to lack merit.

[Florina Laufeyson]

LOL, I give up.

And thus, the forums were duly grateful.

Her lack of growth, which has been posted on this very thread is ignored or again your opinion is refuted and you are told you're not understanding the text.

The text does not display a lack of growth, hence the disagreement. Deal with it. B)

[butterbumps!]

Neither Theon, Tyrion, Arya or Jon could be described as passive, unimaginative, unreflective or having lacked any substantial character growth, granting that Tyrion has had negative character growth, so your criciticism here seems to lack merit.

Um, I think you missed the point that I was asking you to interrogate the causes of your dislike in a way that's more "reflective, imaginative and evolved" than rely on the canards you had been citing. The irony being that the lack of these things is what you had just cited against Sansa.

Also, Cas, when you keep citing the fact she "betrayed" her family in the same post as accusing her of being passive, I'd say you kind of tank you own argument. Since these previous debates you cite between us feature this phenomenon prominently, I feel comfortable saying that the problem isn't in my refusal to accept all these citations, but in the way you're misusing logic.

[Gneisenau]

I actually liked Sansa when she was acting all snobby and mean towards Arya at the begining.

[Cas Stark]

Um, I think you missed the point that I was asking you to interrogate the causes of your dislike in a way that's more "reflective, imaginative and evolved" than rely on the canards you had been citing. The irony being that the lack of these things is what you had just cited against Sansa.

Also, Cas, when you keep citing the fact she "betrayed" her family in the same post as accusing her of being passive, I'd say you kind of tank you own argument. Since these previous debates you cite between us feature this phenomenon prominently, I feel comfortable saying that the problem isn't in my refusal to accept all these citations, but in the way you're misusing logic.

You make my point for me.

She doens't have to never open her mouth, ever, or ever do anything at all, ever, to be generally passive, to be someone who is overwhelming acted upon, who drifts along wherever events take her. But the fact that she has ever at any time done something is used to somehow refute 5 books worth of passive behavior and a passive mentality which we have from her own POV is exactly why the discussion about Sansa is ultimately fruitless and always the same way, with the non Sansa fan told they don't even understand their own viewpoint.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I actually liked Sansa when she was acting all snobby and mean towards Arya at the begining.

Personally I found her snobbish and elitist thoughts straight up hilarious. Every time I read her chapters of AGOT I laugh. Her reaction on Yoren was especially glorious. Reminds me of Jon's reaction on Yoren :lol:. Or how Beric Dondarrion was "awfully old" at the age of 22.

[cocoalover1956]

Why does every Sansa thread become a 20+ page back and forth between fans and haters? It's getting really old. Should we start having separate threads? <_< (I'm kidding about that last part.)

[juanml82]

Yeah, you can argue that there are no objective people. But, there are those who use logic and reason in approaching to the certain topic. This is what butterbumps did on this thread, and somehow she was boxed with the "crazy Sansa fans" (me being proud member of the group). That is the point. These nonsensical generalization discouraged polite, civilized discussions between people who think otherwise than Sansa haters and fans. If we are going to put everyone in one of those groups, then we truly failed in having anything that resembles adult conversation. When people who have more measured approach to Sansa than radical Sansa fans or haters, are being so outrageously attacked, then we cut all the good debates in the root and we can continue shouting to each other: "I love her" "I hate her" ad nauseum. I hope you can see why this is bad...

Your idea of "those who use logic and reason" ends up referring that there are two ways to read Sansa's chapters: the PtP way and the wrong way. And that's not the case. Have you ever wondered by the ages long thread dedicated to Sansa (PtP) doesn't get this kind of discussions? And why it's just a bunch of people who share a similar view of a particular people writing lengthy posts which don't really contradict each other? Mayhaps other people, interested in the character, somehow feel disencouraged to bring a different set of opinions to that particul