[TWoW SPOILERS] March chapter mercy part ii

[The Abominable SnowOther]

^"Also it mentions that Tywin Lannister went to Lys under the reign of Aerys II, so it would seem that he did know where whores go after all." :thumbsup:

A lesson he failed to teach Tyrion and one he would have benefitted from

Needle in her pocket certainly bring to mind the "never-ending" pocket trope

[Lyanna Stark]

@Minijam

Sorry I didn't realise we had a hipster here.Talking about all of his dark fantasy.

Pedophilia is a serious issue and should be dealt with in criminal stories that mirror the tragedy of real life. It should not be written into a fantasy novel to serve a helping of sex, revenge and violence to the reader. It should not be written as entertainment. It cheapens the whole issue. All this chapter does is have Arya seduce the guy to kill him despite being 11. That's just as bad as other tasteless Japanese anime. The character is too young to do that kind of story. This is too serious and too sensitive a topic. Theres a reason why HBO aged the characters up.

I guess you've never read Nabokov's "Lolita" then?

[Frey family reunion]

Well we finally meet the Black Pearl, and one of my favorite theories goes down the tubes. Apparently no chance that Faegon's mother could be the Black Pearl, thus Serra becomes the only canidate I can think of.

I wonder if Sarella, mom could be a prior Black Pearl? How many years ago was Oberyn in Braavos?

[FittleLinger]

Needle, as an official HBO replica, is 30 inches = 76.2 cm. That's with the hilt, not only the blade.

I imagine it as holding a long dagger in a trenchcoat - maybe not the most comfortable, but definitely not impossible. I am pretty sure it's needle.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

@Lady Fevre Dream, Tor.com just did a post that compiles all the released chapters and links where to access them. I hope it's ok to post here. http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/03/how-much-winds-of-winter-is-out

On the queen thing, the two guards are talking about how the queen will have Swyft's head if he doesn't return with the gold. That sounds like Cersei to me.

Thank you very much. I know when the Mercy chapter was announced for release, it was said GRRM was going to take down the Arianne chapter on his own site. I copied and pasted yesterday, and it's floating somewhere in my computer, alas, I'm not the best at these things, LOL

[Guest BigwigStandsHisGround]

Yeah, and when people see blood in fiction, they see gritty realism, I see at best gratuitous violence and normalization/encouragement of killing your neighbor.

Please.

Well, since you said the magic word ... GRRM started the series with lots of sex. All kinds of sex. Consensual sex. Sex for procreation. For consummation. Problematic sex. Straight up rape. The only thing I haven't read about in this series is the rape of an animal. Oh, wait, I totally did. We get it already. An author regarded this highly should have more tools in his toolbox than rape.

[Sun]

I guess you've never read Nabokov's "Lolita" then?

LOL I want no part of this discussion, but I just had to say that comparing ASOIAF to Lolita, on any level, is ludicrous.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

It was no trouble ;)

Perhaps, I can help you even further with a small list.

Officially released (website, app, paperback):

Theon I

Tyrion II

Arianne II

Barristan I

Arya I

Only at readings:

Arianne I

Tyrion I

Victarion I

Barristan II

This are all the released chapters IIRC. There was also an Aeron chapter that GRRM was okay with sharing, but sadly people decided that Arianne was the one they wanted to hear.

I'm guessing that we're pretty close to tWoW now. Only one chapter (Aeron) that might be released. I'm siked for a 2015 release :D

I'm never catching up on threads, LOL Thanks double, a post from you always brings me The Ned!!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I love how grown up she is now!! talking about getting cheap rent and clearly totally cool with all the sex talk and molestation that happens to her. She is tough, very very tough. And frankly scary!!! She is freaking dangerous now, like Beatrix Kiddo dangerous.

Wow, that chapter was nuts!!!

OK so it's Harry Swift, Raff the Sweeting, who is the other older guard?

What is the deal with the Black Pearl?

Is she simply a courtesan in Bravos that the Westerosi are spending the evening with while they are there?

(I took a few words out of the quote, cuz not sure if we are allowed to use exact quotes)

'She had dressed in a low-cut gown of yellow silk, against the light brown of her skin. Her black hair was bound in a net of spun gold, and a jet/gold necklace brushed against the top of her full breasts.'

The 1st Black Pearl was black as ink,” said Daena. “She was a pirate queen, fathered by a Sealord’s son on a princess from Summer Isles. A dragon king from Westeros had her for his lover.”

[DrunkSister]

Since a dissenting person has already been told to read another series and to keep their mouth shut if they haven't written their own book series, I suppose it was inevitable that someone bring up "GRRM is not your bitch".

Where others see gritty realism, I see, at best, gratuitous sex (much of it abusive) and, at worst, normalization of child rape. There are devices to accomplish character development other than rape or the threat of rape. This far into the series, it's almost as though rape is a crutch, the go-to move, and it's getting old.

A lot of children got raped through history and it was at times considered normal. In Serbia you are not a teacher until one of your Rromani students has been sold into marriage and there is nothing you can do.

So why can't a fantasy saga feature problematic things for as long as it is marketed strictly towards adults?

Secondly, it wasn't just rape that was stated to be objectionable, but also consensual sex Dany had with Daario. Because the first time she has a lover she wanted and is having sex she can actually refuse is apparently pointless for her character development. Oh, right, it was anal. How horrible.

My point was that criticizing the author as bad when they are writing stuff you don't like is immature.

She may have had the fruit knife up her sleeve (don't see how a rapier could fit up it), but she was definitely packing Needle.

Having a long iron rod up your cloak would definitely change the way the cloak flapps in the wind and how you move.

I really don't know, I would like it to be needle, but I don't want to say it is, if there is a good reason I see that it is implausible.

(A lot of new replies have appeared I will read them and answer in another post if I have anything to add)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

For a post actually on topic, instead of all my thanks to everyone, here we go:

I wanted to weigh in on the Lemon tree issue with Dany and Braavos and what our Dear Mercy had to say. I'm thinking Dany and her Red Door and her lemon tree were in spring or summer, and that the rich people perhaps do try growing these things, imported from other places. I remember years ago, back when Snow Birds starting going to Florida for the Winter from my home in NJ, they used to bring back little lemon or orange trees, and try to grow them. Perhaps, with the years that a spring or summer could last, a lemon tree could be grown in the backyard of someone from Braavos?

ETA: But honestly, George is deliciously evil. I'm wondering if he's seen some of the lemon tree theories, LOL

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So if the first Black Pearl had very dark 'black as ink' skin and a Targaryen prince took her as a lover, that means there are people out there with black/dark skin and Targ blood, aka Nettles.

[Lyanna Stark]

LOL I want no part of this discussion, but I just had to say that comparing ASOIAF to Lolita, on any level, is ludicrous.

I didn't compare it to "Lolita" at all and am not sure where you got that from? The point is to illustrate that serious topics can be brought up in literature which is not crime novels. There are no laid down rules that certain things cannot be portrayed in certain genres.

Besides, complaints about paedophilia would have far more merit if they were about how it was described in a positive fashion. Instead we get the opposite. It's described as absolutely revolting, creepy and 100% wrong, and we cheer for Arya killing Raff in the end. The mssage taken away from that is that "paedophiles and rapists deserve murder" and that's not glorifying it.

[ARYa_Nym]

Raff wanting her is totally in line with one of Gregor's men. They were the lowest of the low except for Ramsay and maybe Varamyr.

I think she is presented as young. The dwarf says she has no breasts. Not that they're small. She's flat. Arya wonders if he'll think she's too young. Then one of the other Lannister guards was like hell no she's too young.

[Mark Antony]

Thank you very much. I know when the Mercy chapter was announced for release, it was said GRRM was going to take down the Arianne chapter on his own site. I copied and pasted yesterday, and it's floating somewhere in my computer, alas, I'm not the best at these things, LOL

I wish you would of said that earlier. I had to scour the earth for the Arianne chapter once it was taken down but I was successful :D

[Maester Pedant]

So if the first Black Pearl had very dark 'black as ink' skin and a Targaryen prince took her as a lover, that means there are people out there with black/dark skin and Targ blood, aka Nettles.

We already knew that Targaryen blood was not always dominant. For example, Baelor Breakspear inherited his mother's Dornish looks. So Nettles being of Targaryen descent was always a possibility.

Edit: Also, it would have been quite odd if the courtesan known as the Black Pearl of Braavos looked like Daenerys. I know "Black Pearl" is basically a hereditary title, but after a while it would become ridiculous.

[Frey family reunion]

So if the first Black Pearl had very dark 'black as ink' skin and a Targaryen prince took her as a lover, that means there are people out there with black/dark skin and Targ blood, aka Nettles.

Perhaps Oberyn got on with the previous Black Pearl while he was up in Braavos, and brought baby, Sarella, back with him as a souvenir?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

fantastic chapter, but like so many others, leaves me clamoring for the actual completion of WoW.

one thing I noticed in this chapter, that to me is very indicative of what is happening to Arya, is this statement:

"It would be just like Mercy to sleep through her own rape."

Granted, Mercy is not Arya, and the rape is only a scene in the play, but is this statement not a good indication of exactly how Arya is growing mentally? meaning she is showing more and more tendency to be UNFEELING, UNCARING, EMOTIONLESS. Losing grip with her own inner-self.

and this chapter does bring to mind the "old crones" prophecy of Arya sewing throughout the winter (Arya sews with her own NEEDLE in her own way meaning killing) but the old crone also said she would not survive the winter and be found with needle in her frozen fingers.

I must say, to me Arya will complete her list and will complete it before Spring arrives again. but she will not see that Spring herself.

For me, that doesn't show Arya being unfeeling or emotionless, necessarily, it shows her being in touch with the personality of either the real Mercy or the character she has created or a combination of the both. She's just making a comment on Mercy's personality and habits, IMO.

[Mayura]

I understand people being disgusted by Arya's sexual behavior, but what did you expect? She is a girl who is on her own, with no family to watch over her, she travelled half a world to find herself training to be an assassin... And she is still a maid. Now, let me tell you that if a girl/young teenager had been left alone as long as Arya has in our own Middle ages... She would have been raped multiple times. There were no notions such as "pedophilia" in the MA, it was even very common knowledge some Lords to enjoy getting little boys and little girls in their bed. Take Gilles de Rais for example.

And what I mean by this is: GRRM, while actually giving us some great character development (because, yes, in the medieval world, girls, especially not noble girls, were sexualised at quite an early age, being mostly abused) and showing us Arya is going down a dark, dark path and does not care about her own body, has a very pragmatic attitude towards sexuality, still protects his Arya in a way. While the character is confronted to sexual behaviors, all that happens to her is stil "only" a nipple pinched, touching some crotch and kissing a man. Most orphan 12 yo, during the European Middle ages, would already have been raped more than once if not even raped and killed. S

So, seriously, I really thought GRRM had taken the right middle ground between his planned 16 yo Arya (who, I assume, would not have been a maiden and would have been totally more sexually developped than the Arya we've seen there) and the still-a-child Arya he decided to keep going with. What she showed us is the reality of things... Orphan kids are becoming quickly familiar with sexuality and quite depraved ways and people. But he was still subtle enough to allow his character to keep a certain form of innocence, as despite having been running alone and having been exposed to the sexual desires of men, she is still a maiden.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

@Minijam

Sorry I didn't realise we had a hipster here.Talking about all of his dark fantasy.

Pedophilia is a serious issue and should be dealt with in criminal stories that mirror the tragedy of real life. It should not be written into a fantasy novel to serve a helping of sex, revenge and violence to the reader. It should not be written as entertainment. It cheapens the whole issue. All this chapter does is have Arya seduce the guy to kill him despite being 11. That's just as bad as other tasteless Japanese anime. The character is too young to do that kind of story. This is too serious and too sensitive a topic. Theres a reason why HBO aged the characters up.

Do we get to throw tomatoes at you if she does happen to be 12?