Season 4 Impressions

[Annara Snow]

People are credited screentime for scenes in which they're present, whether they actually do anything in them or not. Has anyone calculated whether Cersei had more lines than Jaime in s4?

Indeed, screentime in itself is not the most reliable way to judge a character's role. It makes me think, for instance, of that poster on the 'Game of Screentime' thread who angrily observed that Missandei had more screentime than Stannis - ignoring the fact that a lot of that screentime is just her standing around in Dany's scenes, whereas Stannis is always the focus of his scenes. The latter is also true of Dany, which is why it seems as if she had more screentime than she really did. By contrast, if you looked at Sansa's screentime in season 3, you'd have thought she must have had a great season (and if you had read the books, you'd be right to expect that), and you would be very wrong.

[Konradsmith]

A lot of the KL characters featured in long setpieces like the PW and the Trial and the Trial by Combat which really upped their screentime compared to other characters. A lot of the time though, major characters' just said a few lines and had some reaction shots in these situations. If you shaved off the screentime of these ensemble scenes and counted only scenes focusing more specifically on the KL characters, their screentime wouldn't be too far from everyone else's.

[sj4iy]

Fair enough, if that's how you feel. I believe it was time well spent with people important to his story - Jaime, Bronn, and Oberyn (and arguably Pod).

Hey, it's okay :) We all have the scenes we like that others don't. I know some people hated the Craster's Keep plot, but I loved it. It was exciting and had Karl TFL Tanner (and one of the best deaths in the show IMO). I love Tyrion, too. Just wish they had done something a little different, but crying over spilt milk is useless, so I'll just be excited to see what they do for his storyline next season.

[Mr Fixit]

We all have the scenes we like that others don't.

Sure. I really liked all the character arcs this season,they did a good job. Only problems I had were with the beginning of Stannis material (rehashing Season 3) and the middle of Jon's arc after Craster's -- nothing for him to do in 406-408. I think it would've been best for both Stannis and Jon had the battle taken place an episode or two earlier, ideally 407.

[kn1tt3r]

Overall I'd say s4 was a very good season, about on par with season 3 and slightly behind season 1.

However, my general issue is that with each season the show feels less and less "real" to me, which is probably due to the increasing amount of CG material used(which is very well done, but still) and also due to the the increasing amount of "magic" in the storyline, which has not always been satisfyingly transferred to screen (biggest example is the final Bran scene in s4e10).

Another thing is that the show deviates more and more from the books, which is probably fine due to the lack of future source material and of course often necessary due to cast and budget constraints or the general demands of tv storytelling. But of course each deviation takes away some of the depth of the original story, which not only might became problematic at some point, but also makes the show feel a bit more shallow than it felt in earlier seasons.

[Annara Snow]

Overall I'd say s4 was a very good season, about on par with season 3 and slightly behind season 1.

However, my general issue is that with each season the show feels less and less "real" to me, which is probably due to the increasing amount of CG material used(which is very well done, but still) and also due to the the increasing amount of "magic" in the storyline, which has not always been satisfyingly transferred to screen (biggest example is the final Bran scene in s4e10).

Another thing is that the show deviates more and more from the books, which is probably fine due to the lack of future source material and of course often necessary due to cast and budget constraints or the general demands of tv storytelling. But of course each deviation takes away some of the depth of the original story, which not only might became problematic at some point, but also makes the show feel a bit more shallow than it felt in earlier seasons.

I don't think that it "deviates more and more from the books". How did season 4 deviate from the books any more than seasons 2 and 3 did?

[HairGrowsBack]

In terms of characterization , it did

[Le Cygne]

In terms of characterization , it did

Agreed, they keep coming back to these main plot points, but who are the characters. Looking at my top 10 characters, half I can't even pretend anymore. I wish they'd stop coming back to the main points, just tell their own (different) story completely. Different characters, mean different directions.

[Bran17]

I thought that the arcs actually came together a lot better than in other seasons. I love the way how Brienne's and Arya's arcs met in the finale; same with Jon and Stannis'. Also, I don't think there was any arc this season that was tedious. Everyone, ranging from Theon to Dany to Sansa, had great and interesting scenes unlike in previous seasons where there were some arcs that were less interesting than others. Plus, Tyrion's King's Landing arc is the single best one the show has had so far imo.

I totally disagree. The only characters who had a nice development(still could have been better, tbh, but oh well.) through the season were Tyrion and Sansa. They had arcs.

Which arc did Jon, Daenerys or Arya have? IMO, none. They just had the same scenes in every episode. Jon's plot could have developed a lot more and in a better way, the wildlings were horribly underused, and all the scenes in Castle Black were redundant and repetitive(with the exception of Kraster's Keep ones).

Daenerys and Arya spent the whole season with no story. Just meaningless dialogue scenes in the throne room or walking around with the Hound.

Bran had nice scenes, but should appear in more episodes, at least 1 more, so his appearance in the last episode wouldn't be so sudden. He's been poorly portrayed as a character since Season 3, TBH.

Team Dragonstone and Theon had no arc. Only random scenes, no real plot or any story progression. And almost no screentime.

This season was so pointless, it didn't have a clear focus, even the episode 9(which was awesome) felt kind of sudden, since they didn't use Jon scenes in the previous eight episodes well.

That's the main reason why I didn't like it. I understand the reasons why it had to be that way(they were only using he last 1/3 of ASoS and couldn't dive too deep into AFfC or ADwD), but they could have handled it so much better. Besides, all the "big" moments lacked impact, IMO.

[Annara Snow]

In terms of characterization , it did

Really? Robb, season 2 Dany, season 2 Jon, season 3 Sansa, Loras, Renly, Blackfish, Cersei in huge chunks of all 3 seasons say "Hi". Catelyn would be saying "Hi", too, but was mute during most of season 3 so she couldn't.

[Annara Snow]

I totally disagree. The only characters who had a nice development(still could have been better, tbh, but oh well.) through the season were Tyrion and Sansa. They had arcs.

Which arc did Jon, Daenerys or Arya have? IMO, none. They just had the same scenes in every episode. Jon's plot could have developed a lot more and in a better way, the wildlings were horribly underused, and all the scenes in Castle Black were redundant and repetitive(with the exception of Kraster's Keep ones).

Daenerys and Arya spent the whole season with no story. Just meaningless dialogue scenes in the throne room or walking around with the Hound.

Bran had nice scenes, but should appear in more episodes, at least 1 more, so his appearance in the last episode wouldn't be so sudden. He's been poorly portrayed as a character since Season 3, TBH.

Team Dragonstone and Theon had no arc. Only random scenes, no real plot or any story progression. And almost no screentime.

This season was so pointless, it didn't have a clear focus, even the episode 9(which was awesome) felt kind of sudden, since they didn't use Jon scenes in the previous eight episodes well.

That's the main reason why I didn't like it. I understand the reasons why it had to be that way(they were only using he last 1/3 of ASoS and couldn't dive too deep into AFfC or ADwD), but they could have handled it so much better. Besides, all the "big" moments were lacked impact, IMO.

Meaningless dialogue scenes? Oh, you mean like deciding to stay in Meereen and try to rule it? Learning that she may have punished some innocent people when she crucified 163 random slavers, that collective guilt may not be the best assumption to use while trying to deal justice, and that things are not black and white? Learning that liberating slaves and making slavery forbidden may not be enough to make ex-slaves truly free in a world where the economic, social and cultural conditions haven't changed enough to make that possible, and that some of them are unable to change their way of life and would go back to being slaves since it's the only way they are able to function and make a living? Learning what ruling is actually like, as opposed to conquering and/or liberating, and just how difficult and complicated it is to decide what the right thing to do is? Finally, learning that one of her dragons apparently has killed a child - which completely shakes her entire being, makes her lose confidence in herself and her dragons, and makes her decide to chain the two who haven't flown away, which is the start of her troubles as the queen of Meereen?

Meaningless, indeed.

[Bran17]

I don't think that it "deviates more and more from the books". How did season 4 deviate from the books any more than seasons 2 and 3 did?

I know you didn't ask me, but Imma give you a response, anyway :cool4: :

Still I don't think this season was bad because of that, it deviated much more from the books than the previous ones. The showrunners invented or significantly changed:

- Sansa's arc(in a bad way)

- Kraster's Keep storyline(which I understood why they did it, and even liked)

- Brienne & Pod's encounter with Hot Pie, Arya and Clegane.

- Missandei/Grey Worm relationship

- Jaime's and Cersei's actions

- Reckless Littlefinger

- 80% of Arya and Dany scenes.

- Yara's scene in the Dreadfort

- Shae's storyline, to whitewhash Tyrion

- Stannis and co. scenes

And

- Cut Lady Stoneheart(they never had cut such a huge moment before)

- Dragged Jon's, Arya's and Dany's storylines too far.

That's all I can think of. There was more.

[Bran17]

Meaningless dialogue scenes? Oh, you mean like deciding to stay in Meereen and try to rule it? Learning that she may have punished some innocent people when she crucified 163 random slavers, that collective guilt may not be the best assumption to use while trying to deal justice, and that things are not black and white? Learning that liberating slaves and making slavery forbidden may not be enough to make ex-slaves truly free in a world where the economic, social and cultural conditions haven't changed enough to make that possible, and that some of them are unable to change their way of life and would go back to being slaves since it's the only way they are able to function and make a living? Learning what ruling is actually like, as opposed to conquering and/or liberating, and just how difficult and complicated it is to decide what the right thing to do is? Finally, learning that one of her dragons apparently has killed a child - which completely shakes her entire being, makes her lose confidence in herself and her dragons, and makes her decide to chain the two who haven't flown away, which is the start of her troubles as the queen of Meereen?

Meaningless, indeed.

It was meaningless because of how rushed it was. They spent like 4 mins with Dany in every episode.

I like Daenerys in the books and in the previous seasons, can't say the same about S4.

[Annara Snow]

I know you didn't ask me, but Imma give you a response, anyway :cool4: :

Still I don't think this season was bad because of that, it deviated much more from the books than the previous ones. The showrunners invented or significantly changed:

- Sansa's arc(in a bad way)

- Kraster's Keep storyline(which I understood why they did it, and even liked)

- Brienne & Pod's encounter with Hot Pie, Arya and Clegane.

- Missandei/Grey Worm relationship

- Jaime's and Cersei's actions

- Reckless Littlefinger

- 80% of Arya and Dany scenes.

- Yara's scene in the Dreadfort

- Shae's storyline, to whitewhash Tyrion

- Stannis and co. scenes

And

- Cut Lady Stoneheart(they never had cut such a huge moment before)

- Dragged Jon's, Arya's and Dany's storylines too far.

That's all I can think of. There was more.

I'm just going to quote myself from another thread where the OP claimed that season 4 has diverged from the book more than any previous one:

Season 2 had, among other things: Dany being courted and betrayed by a heterosexual, lowborn and "self-made man" Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and having her dragons stolen and shouting "WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?"; Doreah sleeping with Xaro, betraying Dany and killing Irri; Dany locking Xaro and Doreah in a vault; Jon getting captured by the wildlings because he was too distracted by Ygritte, instead of going "over" at Quorin's instigation during their last stand; Robb meeting a sassy nurse from Volantis and marrying her because he was angry at his mother and had a very modern distaste for arranged marriages; Jamie Lannister murdering his cousin; Theon never meeting Ramsay Snow/Reek and getting knocked over the head by Dagmar, who had previously murdered the two boys that were murdered by Ramsay in the book, and never seeing the sack of Winterfell by Ramsay and his men; Osha sleeping with Theon; Catelyn and Robb never learning that Bran and Rickon were 'dead'; Arya becoming Tywin's cupbearer and having 'cool' conversations with him, instead of working in the kitchen and being beaten and mistreated by an asshole she then went on to have killed; Roose Bolton staying by Robb's side and never overtaking Harrenhal; Arya never helping the Northmen overtake Harrenhal; Arya not murdering a guard while escaping Harrenhal; Brienne killing Renly's Kingsguard without a second thought (as opposed to Loras killing them in a fit of rage and grielf); Littlefinger visiting Tywin and seeing Arya; Littlefinger meeting with Catelyn, hitting on her unsuccessfully, and giving her the idea to release Jaime in exchange for her daughters, which was Cat's own idea in the book; Bran and Rickon not separating after leaving Winterfell; Bran not meeting Jojen and Meera Reed while still in Winterfell; Joffrey ordering the murders of Robert's bastards instead of Cersei; Cersei being powerless and whining non stop about not being able to control Joffrey; Joffrey making one prostitute beat another to death; Dontos never contacting Sansa and offering her escape; Sansa exchanging some four lines with Sandor, but having Shae as her best friend; Shae being loving and devoted to Tyrion and Sansa, and offering Tyrion to run away with her to Essos; Tyrion getting just a 'sexy' scar in battle instead of losing almost all of his nose; Varys offering Shae diamonds to leave Tyrion and Shae refusing...

Season 3 had, among other things: Sansa being planned to marry Loras, instead of his crippled elder brother she has never met; Littlefinger being stupid enough to approach Sansa himself in the broad daylight where everyone could see him and offer her escape, and the Lannisters being too stupid to do anything about it; Tywin and Olenna agreeing on a betrothal between Cersei and Loras; Joffrey killing a prostitute with a crossbow; a Boltons' man hacking Jaime's hand instead of the leader of a mercenary company employed by Tywin; Melisandre meeting Thoros, the BwW and Arya; the BwB selling Gendry to her; Melisandre taking Gendry to Dragonstone, having sex with him and leeching him; Gendry being left to row a boat from Dragonstone after Davos released him; a love triangle between still-alive Orell, Ygritte and Jon; Catelyn being locked up and having no role whatsoever until the Red Wedding; Talisa being more of an advisor to Robb than Catelyn was; Blackfish acting like a thug and threatening Edmure in case he didn't want to accept an arranged marriage to an unknown woman (which happens to be exactly was Blackfish always refused to do); Tywin and Olenna agreeing on a betrothal between Cersei and Loras; Loras apparently not thinking about Renly at all, but being obsessed with fashion and weddings; Tyrion letting Sansa know in advance that she was going to be married to him; Sansa talking to Margaery about it, being brainwashed into trying to "make it work" in her own forced marriage; Cersei not coming with two KGs to drag Sansa to her wedding while Sansa is trying to escape; Sansa kneeling and not showing any defiance at her wedding; Tyrion not making Sansa undress, not getting naked in front of her and not groping her breast; Tyrion and Sansa having amicable conversations and joking around; Shae being incredibly jealous of Sansa and angry at Tyrion for marrying her; Robb's wife getting pregnant; Robb's wife going to the Twins and getting stabbed in the belly; Jamie and Brienne arriving at King's Landing shortly after the Red Wedding; virgin Podrick apparently being some kind of a sex god and making prostitutes (who work for LF, no less) refused to be paid (?!); Mance Rayder having some 3 minutes of screentime the whole season...

[Annara Snow]

And my list above wasn't even remotely complete; there's also

- more reckless Littlefinger, threatening Cersei (season 2 premiere)

- Tyrion not having Symon Silvertongue killed and made into a stew (whitewashing Tyrion) (season 3)

- Tyrion not poisoning Cersei to put her out of commission (season 2)

- Tyrion not sending Tommen away (season 2)

- Tyrion not threatening Cersei to hurt Tommen if she hurts Alayaya

- Tyrion actually giving a shit about the NW's claims about the White Walkers and wights, rather than outright dismissing and mocking them (S2)

- Ros being caught by Cersei instead of Alayaya (S2)

- Ros working for Littlefinger and spying for Varys

- Ros in general

- Bronn becoming the head of the City Watch

- Bronn having conversations & rivalry with Sandor

- Cersei trying to poison Tommen (this was actually awesome)

- Catelyn not being the one to suggest an alliance with Renly and generally having less of a role in Robb's politics (this was not)

- Theon's father and sister getting his dick in the box and Ash...Yara deciding to go on a rescue mission

- Renly's overall personality

- Jorah's overall personality

I could even add season 1, even though it was mostly faithful to the books:

- Littlefinger telling Sansa Sandor's story, instead of Sandor himself (still one of the worst book-to-show changes)... you could also add: - Sandor having like two or three lines the entire season

- more reckless Littlefinger, telling his whores all about his life story and intentions

- Cersei having been once in love with Robert

- Cersei having had a child with Robert who died, as opposed to aborting his child because she didn't want to have children with him (this change really annoys me)

- Drogo's behavior to Dany on their wedding night

- Catelyn not doing anything to defend herself against the Mountain Clans, like a proper damsel, whereas she kills one of them in the book

- Cat's and Ned's only love scene changed from passionate sex to a chaste clothed scene, while Theon and Tyrion got a whole bunch of sex scenes with 20-something extras playing whores

- Sansa not going to Cersei to stay in KL

- Sansa acting like a 21st century teenager and being rude to her septa, as opposed to acting like a courteous medieval lady

- Ned being a great swordsman who can go toe-to-toe with Jaime

- Renly already planning to be a king and suggesting it to Ned

- Renly's overall personality

- Tyrion being knocked over the head before the battle instead of participating in it

- Robb sacrificing 2000 men he sent to Tywin while he was fighting the Battle of Whispering Wood, as opposed to sending Roose Bolton with a part of northern troops

- Catelyn being all pro-vengeance after Ned's death, while in the book she suggests they should make peace

- Shae's background and personality

- Ros in general

[HairGrowsBack]

Really? Robb, season 2 Dany, season 2 Jon, season 3 Sansa, Loras, Renly, Blackfish, Cersei in huge chunks of all 3 seasons say "Hi". Catelyn would be saying "Hi", too, but was mute during most of season 3 so she couldn't.

I'm not arguing that those seasons don't feature mis characterization, just that season 4 is (way) worse. Season 2 Sansa and to a lesser extent Cersei were pretty amazing.

Cat isn't really a good argument since she was out of the show this season, so obviously they couldn't screw her up.

I've been unhappy with some of the decisions made in season 2 and 3 , but season 4 is what made me lose faith.

[Bran17]

I'm just going to quote myself from another thread where the OP claimed that season 4 has diverged from the book more than any previous one:

Almost all of the changes you listed for seasons 2 and 3 were totally understandable, minor or "corrected" later. They almost didn't have any impact to the future seasons.

The only major ones were Robb's, Daenerys', and to a lesser extent, Arya's storylines in S2.

IMO, Season 2 was the most different in relation to the book, but it was much less bad than season 4. The season worked as a whole, despite all that.

S4 was kind of vain.

Bad pacing, slow episodes, underwhelming scenes(not only when compared to the equivalent ones in the books, they just were), lots of illogical moments... It didn't work as S2(even with its big failures).

[Le Cygne]

I've been unhappy with some of the decisions made in season 2 and 3 , but season 4 is what made me lose faith.

They totally lost the Jaime and Brienne momentum, too. It's like that story never happened. They are the same people they were, and no indication they were thinking of each other, until she mentioned his name in the finale, and even then, wasn't anything special (and that was a bullshit scene anyway). Out of sight, out of mind...

[Konradsmith]

Brienne is still wearing the armour he gave her, wearing his sword and going on the mission he assigned her. That's enough for me to indicate her dedication to Jaime. Should she have talked about how much she fancied him to Pod?

As for Jaime, I didn't have a problem with him at all in s4. Sure they changed some of what he got up to, but he's still an interesting character regardless and Nikolaj plays him perfectly, with or without the beard/long hair. They deferred the big blowout/breakup with Cersei until next year, so we don't have to worry about it not happening. Like the NW LC election, it could have worked in s4 but will work just as well in s5. He was a bit too busy to bring up Brienne in his conversation with his family members but it's not as though people will forget their scenes together because he doesn't constantly bring her up. Them meeting again will still be impactful in the show.

[Beric175]

yeah, yeah we know, people on here hate the show. Moving on.