Season 4 Impressions

[OldGimletEye]

How we went from "I don't find Sansa's arc interesting so far" to "she is worthless" and "victim blaming" is something which I believe shall remain a mystery for all the years to come....

Anyway, just because I find this particular "non-badass" character boring does not mean that every character needs to be badass to be interesting to me. I like other characters who aren't kicking arse and taking names.

Look, if you don't find her character arc interesting, then that's fine with me. I am not here to tell anyone that they should find character X interesting.

But, let's face it, some people don't like her because she didn't go all Chuck Norris while in KL. If you don't fit that description, that's cool. I am not pointing fingers at you specifically.

[Cas Stark]

To clarify,

BENIOFF AND WEISS are also romanticizing Littlefinger, she knows she is a "second chance at the woman you loved" and they even said "he has protected her in his own way, she's never come to serious harm with him" - really, because she almost killed herself, was almost raped, was forcibly married, almost killed, and so on... because of his actions.

Also, GRRM never romanticized Littlefinger, not at all. They are very different characters in the show and the books.

Did they say this? Good grief.

I mean, okay, they know the end, so there is some chance that LF will sacrifice himself/his plan in the future to protect Sansa and make such a statement make sense.

But, absent that future sacrifice, Littlefinger has done more to fuck over Sansa Stark than almost anyone else. He is the one who set the process in motion of pitting the Lannisters against the Starks. As she rightly recalls, he never lifted a finger to help her in KL. And while it's speculation, I speculate he could have gotten her out any time he wanted, while her mother still lived, if he had chosen to, but he did not want to. She had a chance at a good marriage that she wanted and he fucked that up to, and oh yeah, involved her in regicide making her a wanted person, unable to even acknowledge her own identity. Oh yeah,l and he betrayed her father, leading to his death and the fall of her House.

If this is 'no serious harm' it's no wonder they Tywin was 'neutral'.

[sj4iy]

Look, if you don't find her character arc interesting, then that's fine with me. I am not here to tell anyone that they should find character X interesting.

But, let's face it, some people don't like her because she didn't go all Chuck Norris while in KL. If you don't fit that description, that's cool. I am not pointing fingers at you specifically.

I think it's too easy for people to generalize and say that people don't like Sansa because she's not badass. The truth is that it's not what makes a character interesting. I don't care for Sansa's story...but I really like non-badass Jaime. I also really enjoy Theon's later chapters. Both if them have really compelling story arcs that draw me in. Sansa really doesn't. I find her character somewhat bland. I love the idea of her having agency, though, because we finally get to see what she can do, what she's capable of, and whether she'll be anything like we think she is.

[Le Cygne]

Did they say this? Good grief.

I mean, okay, they know the end, so there is some chance that LF will sacrifice himself/his plan in the future to protect Sansa and make such a statement make sense.

But, absent that future sacrifice, Littlefinger has done more to fuck over Sansa Stark than almost anyone else. He is the one who set the process in motion of pitting the Lannisters against the Starks. As she rightly recalls, he never lifted a finger to help her in KL. And while it's speculation, I speculate he could have gotten her out any time he wanted, while her mother still lived, if he had chosen to, but he did not want to. She had a chance at a good marriage that she wanted and he fucked that up to, and oh yeah, involved her in regicide making her a wanted person, unable to even acknowledge her own identity. Oh yeah,l and he betrayed her father, leading to his death and the fall of her House.

If this is 'no serious harm' it's no wonder they Tywin was 'neutral'.

Yes, I found it odd, too. It's at odds with the show, as well as very different from the books.

[Cas Stark]

Yes, I found it odd, too. It's at odds with the show, as well as very different from the books.

Yeah, but LF's numerous betrayals of the Starks are all in the show, at least the major ones. So, just from the show...he is the architect of Jon Arryn's murder; he lies to Cat about protecting Ned, he betrays Ned, he quashes the Tyrell match, he frames her for Joff's death.....

So, I have to say I don't get that. It's either predicated on something he does that hasn't happened yet...or a really, really strange idea of 'no serious harm'.

Maybe D&D just like the 'bad guys'...and perhaps this is why we got so much Cersei and Tywin at the expense of Robb and Cat...why Tyrion in the show seems almost as victimized as Sansa by their marriage, and why they thugged up Brienne. They like badass 'get it done' type of characters. Could also be why they like Arya...badass.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, but LF's numerous betrayals of the Starks are all in the show, at least the major ones. So, just from the show...he is the architect of Jon Arryn's murder; he lies to Cat about protecting Ned, he betrays Ned, he quashes the Tyrell match, he frames her for Joff's death.....

So, I have to say I don't get that. It's either predicated on something he does that hasn't happened yet...or a really, really strange idea of 'no serious harm'.

Maybe D&D just like the 'bad guys'...and perhaps this is why we got so much Cersei and Tywin at the expense of Robb and Cat...why Tyrion in the show seems almost as victimized as Sansa by their marriage, and why they thugged up Brienne. They like badass 'get it done' type of characters. Could also be why they like Arya...badass.

I know, it's at odds with the show, too. That's also why I can't fault Aidan Gillen's performance, he had Littlefinger down in season 1, but they kept changing him. I don't think he quite knows who he is at this point.

And I think you've hit on the reason in the last paragraph. And it's also why this is likely to play into Sansa's season 5 storyline in a similar way.

[Annara Snow]

To clarify,

BENIOFF AND WEISS are also romanticizing Littlefinger, she knows she is a "second chance at the woman you loved" and they even said "he has protected her in his own way, she's never come to serious harm with him" - really, because she almost killed herself, was almost raped, was forcibly married, almost killed, and so on... because of his actions.

Also, GRRM never romanticized Littlefinger, not at all. They are very different characters in the show and the books.

GRRM is the one who compared him to Jay Gatsby. Going by this, the way you did by using D&D's comments, he's the one who's romanticizing LF. Gatsby is definitely a highly romanticized character, and presented as sympathetic.

He's also added that this is just book!LF and that show!LF is a different animal... which can only mean that he thought show!LF would be harder to see as a "romanticized" character like Gatsby (granted, that was before season 4). He's also said that LF on the show is different because he's so obviously untrustworthy and nobody trusts him, while the LF of the books was trusted by quite a few people. So, the difference he saw is that show!LF was more obviously villainous and bad news (at least in the first three seasons as opposed to the corresponding parts of the books). Which is true, he was basically a Bond villain at times.

How you went from this to "show!LF is more of a good guy/romanticized figure", I have no idea.

[Cas Stark]

I know, it's at odds with the show, too. That's also why I can't fault Aidan Gillen's performance, he had Littlefinger down in season 1, but they kept changing him. I don't think he quite knows who he is at this point.

And I think you've hit on the reason in the last paragraph. And it's also why this is likely to play into Sansa's season 5 storyline in a similar way.

Well, not get into "Dressgate" again....but it's at least a hint that they're going to turn her into some kind of Badass Lite....manipulating LF, etc. etc. which could be a moving up of something that also hasn't happened yet...or that Show Sansa, despite how well Sophie potrays her...is not the same person as her 'inspiration'.

[Le Cygne]

Well, not get into "Dressgate" again....but it's at least a hint that they're going to turn her into some kind of Badass Lite....manipulating LF, etc. etc. which could be a moving up of something that also hasn't happened yet...or that Show Sansa, despite how well Sophie potrays her...is not the same person as her 'inspiration'.

I tend to go with the latter. I think they are playing up the story for what they think is interesting to the audience vs. the story GRRM is telling in the books, which is very different (notably, the characters are very different).

Hence, this is more in line with Thug Brienne and the like, she's (hopefully) not going to become a thug in the books. Nice Brienne still awaits us in book 6. He doesn't turn characters from one thing to another like a light switch.

[Annara Snow]

Yeah, but LF's numerous betrayals of the Starks are all in the show, at least the major ones. So, just from the show...he is the architect of Jon Arryn's murder; he lies to Cat about protecting Ned, he betrays Ned, he quashes the Tyrell match, he frames her for Joff's death.....

So, I have to say I don't get that. It's either predicated on something he does that hasn't happened yet...or a really, really strange idea of 'no serious harm'.

Or maybe they're just bullshitting in the "let's now give a bit of the bad guy's perspective" way.

Going by the "character profiles" and "inside the episodes", Viserys was a caring brother (per Harry Lloyd), for instance. That's certainly not what we saw in the show and the books.

GRRM also sometimes talks nonsense that's at odds with his books, as when he called Jaime, Sandor and Theon "villains" and expressed surprise that people/specifically women like them (oh come on!), or when he said that book!LF is trusted by everyone as opposed to show!LF... the latter is an obvious exaggeration made just to drive home the point how obviously villainous show!LF is. In fact, the only people who really trust LF in the books are Lysa and Catelyn; even Ned doesn't really trust him at first but distrusts everyone else in KL even more and decides to trust him because of Cat. Sansa at first just finds him weird and creepy, and never actually trusts him, but later tries to when she has no choice; Tyrion definitely doesn't trust him, but doesn't try to bring him down because he thinks LF has too many connections; everyone else just doesn't think LF is dangerous because he is too lowborn and they think he's just a toady that gets things done. It's not that people trust him in the books, it's that he flies under the radar in the books, while show!LF is far too obvious.

Maybe D&D just like the 'bad guys'...and perhaps this is why we got so much Cersei and Tywin at the expense of Robb and Cat...why Tyrion in the show seems almost as victimized as Sansa by their marriage, and why they thugged up Brienne. They like badass 'get it done' type of characters. Could also be why they like Arya...badass.

Actually, they both say their favorite character is Theon. Take out of that what you will.

ETA: And I certainly wouldn't say we didn't get enough Robb. On the contrary, we got too much Robb, at the expense of Catelyn. And it was a different Robb (not in a good way, though I'm sure D&D didn't see it that way) from the books. They made him the stereotypical handsome young badass hero character and shoved his mother to the side, embracing the very fantasy fiction stereotype that GRRM said he wanted to subvert in ASOAIF.

[OldGimletEye]

I think it's too easy for people to generalize and say that people don't like Sansa because she's not badass. The truth is that it's not what makes a character interesting. I don't care for Sansa's story...but I really like non-badass Jaime. I also really enjoy Theon's later chapters. Both if them have really compelling story arcs that draw me in. Sansa really doesn't. I find her character somewhat bland. I love the idea of her having agency, though, because we finally get to see what she can do, what she's capable of, and whether she'll be anything like we think she is.

An over generalization would be of the form:

For all x, it is the case that x is y.

Not:

For some x, it is the case that x is y.

I was careful to qualify my statement by using the word "some". Again, if you simply find her character arc to be boring, and her lack of "bad assness" isn't a factor, then that's fine with me.

[Cas Stark]

Or maybe they're just bullshitting in the "let's now give a bit of the bad guy's perspective" way.

Going by the "character profiles" and "inside the episodes", Viserys was a caring brother (per Harry Lloyd), for instance. That's certainly not what we saw in the show and the books.

GRRM also sometimes talks nonsense that's at odds with his books, as when he called Jaime, Sandor and Theon "villains" and expressed surprise that people/specifically women like them (oh come on!), or when he said that book!LF is trusted by everyone as opposed to show!LF... the latter is an obvious exaggeration made just to drive home the point how obviously villainous show!LF is. In fact, the only people who really trust LF in the books are Lysa and Catelyn; even Ned doesn't really trust him at first but distrusts everyone else in KL even more and decides to trust him because of Cat. Sansa at first just finds him weird and creepy, and never actually trusts him, but later tries to when she has no choice; Tyrion definitely doesn't trust him, but doesn't try to bring him down because he thinks LF has too many connections; everyone else just doesn't think LF is dangerous because he is too lowborn and they think he's just a toady that gets things done. It's not that people trust him in the books, it's that he flies under the radar in the books, while show!LF is far too obvious.

Actually, they both say their favorite character is Theon. Take out of that what you will.

Theon is a great a character....but he's SO tragic that he doesn't fit in either the good guy or the villain or the badass category, his story is almost unique in the aspects of loyalty, redemption and identity.

It's true people in the show sometimes say stupid crap...but, LF protecting Sansa in his own way??????? and not having done her any serious harm?????????? Is like a bridge too far, even only going by what he has done to her and her family in show. He's the architect of her family's downfall, of all of her current troubles.

They did have him tell her he killed Joff in revenge for what he did to her family, I don't think I dreamed that, but I didn't take it seriously, because it's such an obvious lie, even in show only context.

[sj4iy]

An over generalization would be of the form:

For all x, it is the case that x is y.

Not:

For some x, it is the case that x is y.

I was careful to qualify my statement by using the word "some". Again, if you simply find her character arc to be boring, and her lack of "bad assness" isn't a factor, then that's fine with me.

Oh, I wasn't saying you did it. I was saying that's what started this discussion.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I do think that there's something to be said about the trend in some quarters for appreciation of characters being directly related to perception of their being "strong" or "bad ass" or what have you. Namely, it's a bad trend. You can like what you like, absolutely, but when people keep being attracted to affirmative figures and talk down more ambiguous ones, or see in a character of limited power or ability simply "weak" or "uninteresting", they encourage creators to produce homogeneous, "strong" characters. It reduces the discursive possibilities.

This reasoning is why I am a bit concerned with the snarking 'badass' qualities that Brienne was written to have in season 4. It is a symptom of the times, I think, the general 'must be a real badass' to be interesting, but I do think the show seems to be leaning more heavily in this direction. The Brienne issues haven't absolutely pissed me off, but it was hard not to notice that TVBrienne isn't exactly the well mannered woman she is in the books. The more the season continued, the more I noticed this, and I suspect that by the time season 5 is over, this will be more than just noticeable, it will be downright irritating. IIRC, I thought I read something about someone mentioning that Brienne will continue to have these snark moments with Pod, and I'm not looking forward to it. I enjoy a good laugh, a good snark as much as the next person, but I wish I didn't have to fear that Brienne will become less and less recognizable.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Did they say this? Good grief.

I mean, okay, they know the end, so there is some chance that LF will sacrifice himself/his plan in the future to protect Sansa and make such a statement make sense.

But, absent that future sacrifice, Littlefinger has done more to fuck over Sansa Stark than almost anyone else. He is the one who set the process in motion of pitting the Lannisters against the Starks. As she rightly recalls, he never lifted a finger to help her in KL. And while it's speculation, I speculate he could have gotten her out any time he wanted, while her mother still lived, if he had chosen to, but he did not want to. She had a chance at a good marriage that she wanted and he fucked that up to, and oh yeah, involved her in regicide making her a wanted person, unable to even acknowledge her own identity. Oh yeah,l and he betrayed her father, leading to his death and the fall of her House.

If this is 'no serious harm' it's no wonder they Tywin was 'neutral'.

Yes to all of this, and yeah.........we shouldn't be surprised at some of the stuff that D&D come up with after their idea of "Tywin Neutral.' It's a damn shame sometimes, I'm not sure whether to go Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh or just try and LOL it away.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I know, it's at odds with the show, too. That's also why I can't fault Aidan Gillen's performance, he had Littlefinger down in season 1, but they kept changing him. I don't think he quite knows who he is at this point.

And I think you've hit on the reason in the last paragraph. And it's also why this is likely to play into Sansa's season 5 storyline in a similar way.

Half of the time I think Aidan Gillen's performance is a response to his own feelings on the way LF is being handled by the show. LF's become such a ridiculous, one note, mustache twirling villain that sometimes I think his performance is his way of saying............DAMN, I COULD be playing a much more interesting character. I really do wonder about that sometimes. Yeah, LF is creepy in the books but that is because we understand his motivations. I think AG MAY just be protesting LF's heavy handed writing with his own Creepfinger acting.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Well, not get into "Dressgate" again....but it's at least a hint that they're going to turn her into some kind of Badass Lite....manipulating LF, etc. etc. which could be a moving up of something that also hasn't happened yet...or that Show Sansa, despite how well Sophie potrays her...is not the same person as her 'inspiration'.

LOL, awwwwwwwww, you liked that DressGate name? I do agree, Sophie portrays Sansa beautifully, she really does have the Sansa 'vibe' and it seems so natural. I am trying to keep in mind that the show is liable to totally forget THE dress (which is pretty funny, it seems no one else is forgetting), expect us to have amnesia about it, and it and the implications may be as forgotten as the oh so interesting Sept scene with the Lannister twins. It could go either way.

[Le Cygne]

I think AG MAY just be protesting LF's heavy handed writing with his own Creepfinger acting.

The kissing scene is hilarious. The showrunners said she was shocked. She didn't look shocked. They both looked like, what the hell is going on here, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing!

[Cas Stark]

LOL, awwwwwwwww, you liked that DressGate name? I do agree, Sophie portrays Sansa beautifully, she really does have the Sansa 'vibe' and it seems so natural. I am trying to keep in mind that the show is liable to totally forget THE dress (which is pretty funny, it seems no one else is forgetting), expect us to have amnesia about it, and it and the implications may be as forgotten as the oh so interesting Sept scene with the Lannister twins. It could go either way.

Ha. So true. Maybe we should take bets on whether she shows up next season as Black Sansa in her feather dress from hell and her disconcertingly modern statement necklace...or, if it's never seen again, as if it never happened at all. I'd go 50/50, maybe give the edge to a reappearance...ya know to remind the audience this is a whole new Sansa. LMAO

[Annara Snow]

Yes to all of this, and yeah.........we shouldn't be surprised at some of the stuff that D&D come up with after their idea of "Tywin Neutral.' It's a damn shame sometimes, I'm not sure whether to go Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh or just try and LOL it away.

To be fair, GRRM also says silly things about his book characters sometimes. Imagine the reaction if D&D called Jaime, Sandor and Theon villains and expressed (supposed) surprise that people like them, or compared Littlefinger to Jay Gatsby! (The latter actually does make sense, there are similarities, but LF is like an evil version of Gatsby in a completely subverted version of the story; but since Gatsby is a sympathetically portrayed protagonist, while Daisy and Tom are very unsympathetic, callous people, people could take it in a very wrong way...)